we hear from some of history's dogs notable women, unconventional and extraordinary office. i am free that gun, no communist revolution of everyone in china, new my state. you've heard all of them. power, it's time you have from these and 6 of hindsight is out now subscribe wherever you listen to put the serial venue in the hall with your top stories on elsa's era, at least 4 civilians have been killed in a drone attack. and the sidney city of undermine the health industry says the rapids support forces targets at a hospital with the conflicts known as 4th month. you and officials have called for doubling efforts to ensure that the fighting won't spiral into a civil war. those who have fled the conflict spoke to elsie's 0 about their ordeal . does that have to me on my team and kind of to get i was among

a group of 37 people, ordered by the militias. specifically the rapids support forces to cover the bodies . i know of 6 similar groups in the city. we were given iron hooks with which we drug. the bodies covered them in plastic sheets and then placed them in trucks that are transporting construction materials. the group picked up more than $300.00 corpses and 3 days were on the orders of the armed demand. the south korea's prime minister says he is mobilizing all available resources to deal with floods in the land sites. at least 26 people have died after days of torrential rain. extreme weather alerts have been issued in several provinces across china, in the northwest temperatures, sword to 45 degrees celsius, while hundreds of people in the southwest to face down pores and has to be rescued from flooded homes and eat records are set to be broken around the world in the southern united states around $85000000.00 people are living under heath advisories . health warnings have been issued in italy, greece and spain. meanwhile,

more than 2500 people have been evacuated from the rapidly advancing path of a wild fire in spain's canary islands, about 300 firefighters are working to stump the blaze which broke out on saturday morning. regions governor says the extreme heat and wind are helping the fire spread. both tests are continuing and israel against the government's controversial, judicial overall. on monday the is really parliament passed the bill and its 1st reading to limit the supreme court's powers. over the last few months, tens of thousands of people have demonstrated across the country. a move for testing, for testing to save our democracy and our libertine in the country of democracy, such as israel, and we're defending all values. that's what we're doing. so it's about price, it's super both left. it's about what we believe in the future of the next

generation of our children and our dentist. bolivia is cracking down on illegal mine or is in the amazon region of benny arresting at least 57 people. is comes as indigenous communities inactive is expressed alarm over unregulated gold mining in the north of the country by jerry, as president bola to nubile is declared a state of emergency to deal with a worsening food crisis. under the state of emergency, farmers will be given supplies and some households could be given $10.00 a month for the next 6 months. you in says 25000000 nigerians are at high risk of not be able to get enough food every day. a crucial aid crossing into syria's rebel held territory remain suspended. serious government insists the un can deliver supplies to the bible, how of crossing into it live. but the u. n. is reported to have concerns at conditions that include a band on the working with rebel authorities to south korea says it will increase

assistance to ukraine as an you. and so if you'll give the assurance during a visit, the keen he met with ukraine in president followed him. is the lensky so has committed to increasing humanitarian aid to a 150000000 dollars this year? it's also promising normally so military assistance, tons of the to south korea will continue to provide military supplies that ukraine needs. following last year, supplies such as bullet proof vests and helmets. we will support military supplies on a large scale. this year she went on and at wimbledon, and there was disappointment for jane as in tennis player on job her she was trying to become the 1st arab or african woman to win a grand slam singles title. but she lost the final for the 2nd year in a row this year to market the funder silva. the check is the 1st and see the player to win the women singles. thanks to let me live in the open. as the headlines on elsie's 0, the news continues right here. after the bottom line,

state you the a hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. should ukraine be a member of nato? let's get to the bottom line. the ukraine has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place historically and geographically, it's always been in russia's orbit. but in the last 20 years, many of its politicians lobbying to join the defense against russia alliance, the north atlantic treaty organization. or what we all know is nato in 2008 president george w bush, that ukraine should be part of nato. and that set off alarm bells in russia big time. so some would say that the seats, if this were, were planted way back then. now nato leaders have met in building is that the way

the and ukraine is pushing hard to get some kind of commitment from the alliance. so what are the options and what are the risks? today we're talking to john mearsheimer, one of america's leading political scientists and a professor of international relations at the university of chicago. his latest book is coming out this paul, how states think the rationality of foreign policy, dr. mere cyber? it's great to be with you again, thank you for joining the show. so i'm just interested who one and who last, and what we've seen thus far out of the nato summit. well, it's not that black and white, steve. i mean, obviously, nato is committed at some point in the distant future to bringing ukraine into the alliance. but they don't want to do it any time soon because of it was brought into the alliance in the middle of the war. that would almost ex, you medically involve data. oh, and that means the united states in a war with russia. and we don't want that. the real issue here is that from

a russian point of view, there's nothing more important than making sure that ukraine is not in nato. so the more we promise to bring ukraine into nato, the greater the incentive for the russians to rec, ukraine, as a functioning country. and that's really what's going on here. so there are all sorts of people who feel really good about the fact that we're working hard to bring ukraine into nato. they think this is a noble cause, but they're wrong. the end result of this is that ukraine is going to be turned into a dysfunctional. rob stay as well right now. as we see things president zalinski is enraged, reportedly on saying they don't respect the data. when we do asked understand that there are a lot of people that see heroism, at least, and those that have tried to defy, you know, russians invasion and are saying that this, this lack of

a clear timeline for inclusion and nato is disrespecting that. and i understand where you're coming from, but is there any argument there is you kind of look at it that may be when you have 2 powers, like russia and, and, and the united states in the west. the nato basically bringing ukraine, as you said, is the, the bulwark, uh, you know, in the right side of that alliance, that might be the right thing. is there any, is there any argument for that? in what sense is it the right thing? i mean, it's very easy for people in the west all these virtue signals who are not doing the fighting dying to say that ukraine shouldn't be brought into nato. and therefore, giving the russians even more powerful incentives direct the country, makes no sense to me. we should have a band in the idea of bringing ukraine into nato long ago, and had we done that there would be no warrant today in our little likelihood. that

if these people believe that fueling this war is going to ultimately lead to, we're ukrainian victory, and then we can bring ukrainian ukraine into nato. they're living in a full paradise craniums are not good with this war. if anything, the russians are going to win this war, and if you look at what's happening with this highly touted ukrainian counter offensive, it's been going since june 4th. the fact is it's going nowhere and huge numbers of ukrainian troops are being slaughtered and many of their armored fighting vehicles are being destroyed. john, you've written a paper. i mean, it's a very compelling paper. i highly recommend people read it. it's called the darkness ahead. where the ukraine war is headed, and so you see this awful dark future i had, can you share with our audience a little bit about what the key pillars of your argument are? well 1st of all, as you describe,

it's steve. i think that both sides at this point in time, the russians on one side and ukraine in west and the west on the other side, view each other as x. a central threats that have to be defeated in a world like that. there's very little room for compromise because you're dealing with a mortal enemy. that's the general level. at the more specific level, there are 2 key issues that are on resolvable. the 1st has to do with territory, and the 2nd has to do with neutrality. and let me start with the 2nd because it gets to what we were talking about a few minutes ago. the russians insist that ukraine not be in nato. needless to say the ukrainians at this point in time desperately want to be in tomato. well, there's no way that you can square that circle, either it's in nato or it's not in nato. then there's the issue of territory. the fact is that the russians have cleaved off about 23 percent of ukrainian territory,

and they have made it clear that they're not giving it back. indeed, they have a next all that territory. and they promised to take more territory. a ukrainian, understandably one, all of their territory back again. how do you square that circle? if the russians keep the territory the ukrainians can't get it back and the russians are going to keep the territory. so you have a territorial issue, as well as the issue of neutrality. and then on top of all that you have the problem that you described, which is you have 2 states or 2 sides that approach each other as accepts the initial threats that have to be decisively defeated. you know, basically american political support and financial support of ukraine. we've right now seen seeing cluster bombs committed. we've seen a, you know, a big buy in essentially from the united states president into the outcome of ukraine. where do you see that going? a lot of people saw joe biden in his white house, maybe acquiescing to

a frozen conflict, but then solve a cluster bombs, as may be an effort to, to move this war more quickly. how do you see it? and i don't see it like that, steve. i think the by the administration knows that for the foreseeable future, that the best they can hold for is the stalemate. and the cluster bombs are not designed to allow the ukraine to defeat the russians on the battlefield or help them win on the battlefield. the fact is that the most important weapon on the battlefield in this war of attrition is artillery. and the russians have somewhere between a $5.00 to $10.00 to $1.00 advantage in artillery. this has massive consequences. but on top of that, the ukrainians are running out of artillery. and the reason we're giving the premiums cluster bombs at this point in time is so that,

that will compensate for the fact that they're running out of work. hillary. so we're just trying to maintain the balance bar tillery, by substituting cluster bombs for or tillery rounds. and that still means the russians will have somewhere between a $5.00 to $1.00 to $10.00 to $1.00 advantage in artillery. if you categorize cluster bombs as a form of artillery, so this is not going to help. you're basically just stemming the tide by giving them cluster bombs. what does it say about the world i've, i've talked to senior white house officials about these $155.00 millimeter shells that they say are going to decide everything. and that the world that america, they're, all of italy's aren't producing enough of this ammunition to supply the 9000 round today that ukraine needs true. but it says that you're doomed. if you're involved

in a war of attrition. aside from the balance of resolve, the 2 things that matter most. number one, the balance of manpower and number 2 is the balance of artillery. and in terms of the balance of man power, ukrainians are outnumbered 5 to one. that means the russians can produce 5 soldiers for everyone, ukrainian soldier. and again, remember this is a war of attrition. where you have basically joe frazier and home at all the standing toe to toe and beating the living daylights out of each other. and then the main weapon of this battlefield is artillery. and by almost all accounts, the russians have somewhere between $5.00 to $1.10 to $1.00 advantage. and as i said before, the ukrainians are running out of work. hillary. this is a colossal disaster the the ukrainians were facing. and the problem here, steve, is that when we initially got into this war,

after the russians invaded ukraine and we sided with ukrainians, and we began to supply them. we didn't understand that it would turn into a protracted war of attrition and our ability or the west, the ability to manufacture artillery, tubes and artillery rounds would be of profound importance. and as the war war on, it became clear that we did not have the manufacturing capability necessary to produce an adequate amount of artillery for the ukrainians. and at the same time, the russians have a truly impressive ability to pump out or jewelry rounds and artillery tubes. and furthermore, they have huge stockpiles of artillery. so they have a significant advantage here. and this is why in good part the ukrainians are in so much trouble today on the battlefield. and it's why we can't rectify the situation . and it's why we're giving them cluster bombs, which is not, as i said before,

a magic wiping are there's, are there elements on the russian side of this that we should be looking at of miscalculations by putting and, and fragility on the, on the russian military side. but there's no question that both sides made miscalculations. it's hard to say what miscalculations are which miscalculations prove, made, simply because we don't have a lot of information. we really don't know. know what he was thinking about as he went into the war. but the one miscalculation he made was that when he invaded on february 22nd, should be february 24th of 2022. he went in with a relatively small force and it's very clear to me and a number of other analyst when he was interested in doing was getting the ukrainians to negotiate about the future of ukraine in data. he was interested in

the question of ukrainian neutrality, and at 1st it looked like he might succeed because as you remember in march, the ukrainians and the russians were actually negotiating in east on both an issue . the main issue that they were negotiating about was this question. of neutrality versus nato membership for ukraine. how had those negotiations worked? it would've been a brilliant calculation on this part. but obviously the negotiations failed by early april. and we ended up in this war of attrition. and i think in those circumstances, one could argue that the miscalculate, i would know it also that i think we miscalculated, we in the west, as i said before, we was calculated because we didn't understand how important artillery production would be. but i think that the west miscalculated in another way,

and that is that they thought that the sanctions, the economic sanctions would bring the russians to their knees. and therefore, we wouldn't have to worry about producing artillery in the lengthy war of attrition because the russians would be knocked out of by these massive economic sanctions. but the economic sanctions have have little effect and therefore we're in this protract or, and therefore, artillery production matters enormously. and the wagner group and progressions activities, we had 24 hours of what looked to be a fairly dramatic insurrection in russia, against the kremlin, that disappeared quickly. was it a factor at all? and i don't think it's had any effect on the battlefield up to this point in i actually believe with the passage of time it will work to rush is advantage. but i would qualify that by saying it's very difficult to know exactly what's going on

here. when it 1st happened and the, the mute did, we shut down. i think almost everybody thought that regardless, it would be thrown in jail. that a deal was worked out where he was going to leave the country and permanently be stationed in zillow, russia, that didn't work out. and now he's back in moscow and he's talking to this is really hard to understand. it's hard to know what's going on. but my clear sense i may be wrong here, but my clear sense is that what is up to is he wants to keep the wagner group intact and he wants to keep it in the funny because it is a formidable site for us. and at the same time, he wants to keep goshen on his side, but he will go to great lengths to new to progression so that he can not cause any significant trouble in the future. if he's successful in doing something along

these lines, this will be in that positive. if promotion doesn't play a long, he's gonna have to deal with precaution in harsh ways because precaution has the potential to cause really big problems inside the russian chain of command. and i believe that if he did that, it would ultimately have an effect on events on the battlefield. and given the nature of this war, the russians cannot afford that. so they have to deal with precaution one way or the other exactly how they do it is hard to say with any degree of certainty. at this point. you have argued in this, in this paper very compellingly, that united states and russia and a proxy war just can't quit each other. they're just going to continue add it. but there happen to be a lot of republicans who do want to quit this war. if the republicans come to office, will they be able to find an off ramp in this conflict, or do you think it still keeps grinding on as you've written as well if i had to

bet steve, i would bet that the republicans would not take us out of the war, you want to remember that although there is a substantial slice of the republican party that is in favor of getting out of ukraine, there are a large number of super hawks in the republican party. and this includes people like lindsey graham and mitch mcconnell and those folks want to make sure we don't get out. i think that, you know, even if a trump get selected, the trump, although he may talk about pulling us out, that won't happen in, in large port because the blob or the foreign policy establishment or the deep state, has so much influence that it's just hard to imagine the united states walking away from the war and ukraine at this point in time. and you understand that

because ukraine has no ability to produce its own weaponry. and in fact, it can even support itself as a functioning government is absolutely requires our backend. so if we were to walk away in any meaningful way, it would have devastating consequences for ukraine, ukraine blues and russia would when i find it hard to believe and a public and administration or public and dominated congress pushing us down that road. i mean, it could happen, but i do not think it's likely i think we're in this one for the, for the future. and i think really the only interesting question, steve, is whether we get dragged into that or if i right at a globe 2nd meeting in may, i heard french president emanuel mac crone, and you're paying cash commission president are sort of underlying, essentially both shrugged off then any chance of near term nato meant membership or

ukraine. what they're trying to put in place are essentially bundled security assurances, which to me, sounds like taiwan. is there another strategy here that side steps? the nato question? provides what, what macro and said was compelling. security assurances that might possibly deter, you know, russian re invasion down the road. once this conflict gets the result. is that a sensible strategy or not? you know, it doesn't work and this is basically what you had right before the war. a i've argued in a number of places, the ukraine before the war started on february 24th 2022 had become a de facto member of nato. this is one of the reasons that the ukrainians have thought so well. they were trained and armed by the west, between 20142022. the ukraine had become

a de facto member of nato. and this is categorically unacceptable to the russians. the russians want ukraine to be a genuinely neutral country. and the problem is that the ukrainians want a security guarantee, and this is completely understandable, who could blame the ukrainians for wanting a security guarantee forever and ever. but the question is, who can give them that security guarantee? and the only country or group of countries that can give them that security current t or the united states and the west more generally. and once you do that, whether it's done formally through nato, or informally, through nato. uh, you end up in a situation that's intolerable to the russians, and this is why i find it hard to imagine. it's one of the reasons i find it so hard to imagine that we're ever going to get a genuine piece agreement. instead,

i think we're going to end up in a frozen conflict. i mean, just to switch to the subject to bringing in sweden, in to the alliance and bringing finland into the alliance in the west. this is seen as an auto lloyd. good. it's a wonderful thing. it's all designed to check russian expansion into all of europe . and make 2 points. one is the russians have never had any intention of extending their military in to eastern europe, much less in the western europe. the idea that this is the 2nd coming of the soviet union is not a serious argument. so we don't need to strengthen nato to contain russia. but the 2nd point and maybe even more important point is you want to understand the directions, feel that they're under siege now they feel encircled. and if you look at a map of nato, you can understand why. so if you have

a situation where both of finland and sweden are in nato, and you'll look at the baltic sea, which matters greatly to the russians. because colleen in grad is only reachable by the baltic sea school to make the russians very scared. it's going to make them feel very insecure. it's going to make them feel vulnerable. and the question you want to ask yourself, is this good? my, for many years studying great power politics, tell me that you don't want to put a great power in a situation where it is really scared. because you never want to underestimate the extent to which a great power that's really scared who pursue risky strategies. and the russians may very well pursue a highly risky strategy. one that's highly undesirable to the west,

some down the road because they're scared. so i'd be very careful about scaring the russians. and i would note here, steve, the reason the russians invaded ukraine, in my opinion, is that they were scared stairs at the thought of ukraine becoming a western bulwark on russia's borders. so we played this game once before. and what we're doing here in a very important way is trying to up the, let's not only talk about bringing ukraine into nato. let's bring sweden and finland in tomato. let's get the church against the russians. let's get the whole world against the russians. here in the of scary the country have to do that has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. and in which many of those nuclear weapons are aimed at the united states of the west. more generally is in my humble opinion, not a very smart strategy. but we'll have to leave, leave it there. fascinating conversation professor john mearsheimer at the

university of chicago. thank you so much for your candor and your insights today. my pleasure, steve. so what's the bottom line? nato is a one for all and all for one alliance and ukraine is just not in the club and won't be for a long time. if ever the alliance requires old members to agree to any new member and the u. s. ranch. germany hungry and turkey have all expressed reservations. most eastern european capitals are frustrated, and the issue is dividing allies who see the absence of anita track in vilnius as a victory for russian president vladimir putin. this is not an easy not to work through. realistically, this conflict is going to grind on and on the costs of the war while horrific. have not yet been high enough to force the 2 sides to sit at the same table. it's clear that ukraine will become the taiwan of eastern europe, of sorts with lots of western security assurance, is bundled in a way that hopefully deters future regression. but let's face it, a lot of assurances just isn't the same as one for all and all for want. and that

the bottom line, the on counting the cost wise hunger still on the rise in many parts of the world. artificial intelligence is expected to revolutionize businesses, but is it cost effective? fos, we find out how we rock is trying to keep the light switched on. counting, the cost on that i'll just showing you here is coming over our heads from russian positions and a new crane positions have been standing about how they were directly targeted as they were trying to sleep. we see some of the residents come out of the building with that possessions in the suitcases by substantial safe anymore. what happens on that day is a will quite those coming across the lines and know that

the level of destruction here proof of just how fits the fighting has been in recent weeks this russian or don't some on a street has been a place of pilgrimage for centuries after 4 years of j books and i was white when presidency brazil's political pendulum, this one back to let the silver socialist government, backed by deep bulk. i agree, businessman functions within the military and the law g fun jelic to base his opponents of challenge to very integrity of the amount of boxes under obstructing is reforms. people in power hosp can lula were united nation saving preserves democracy on the jersey and the taurus terraces of the football extras, white club loyalty, company, violence, confrontation when i was young, when there was a football match, we were frightened because the friends couldn't go crazy. but in indonesia.