in a world where the news never ends, understanding what's behind the headlines is more important than ever. it takes listening to the people behind the news and to the journalist for reporting their stories. it's that intimacy that makes every international story local at heart. i'm only gonna be that host of the take a daily news podcast powered by the login reporting valdez here. find us where ever you get your pod cast a cache from the here to help for nancy. echo migration. nearly 2000 people from africa have died. so far this year, trying to reach your across from mediterranean. so how can i block squared, keeping out my grades for the human rights obligations? this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian instead of going to the italian and dutch prime ministers and the european commission president had been in to nicea to sign a deal on the financial aid. part of that will pay for a clamp down on migration. people wanting to start a new life and you are a put traveled to the country from across africa and elsewhere. june is he has been accused of a racist policy for expelling people now trapped on the border with libya. with that bod, from entering the allows migration from ukraine because of the countries with russia. but it's paying to prevent african migrants reaching it shows at helping other countries like libya, the face obligations of abusing migrants. human rights will shortly be discussing the use migration policy and the rights suppose seeking a better life in europe. but 1st, a report from out of here is sort of high that they thought they were heading to

a back to future in europe. but those dreams came to a sudden, and then using authorities rounded up hundreds of black african migrants and less than stranded on the border with libya, with a will that's been going on for years. they've been. authorities refused to help leaving them in a hot byron stretch of does it with very little water food of some injured others pregnant along with that children. they've enjoyed long journeys, mostly from sub saharan africa. and now this we are diary one of the i pro dies then it's, i really feel very, it's if i brought it up as soon as we are back in new people. so boss on this other players thought the government doesn't want them into disease or migrant. so being helped by some local people. tensions are high in the board of thomas fox and others have been arrested that foster it's and is in mind we stopped to death last week in a fight with several migrants. human rights organizations have called for emergency

aid and shelter to be allowed in as soon as possible. the red crescent has reached some, but many have yet to be rescued. run o t c i my guns, we are not to laws. we all make. god goes looking to beat up a good life, you know, we're not claiming dollars. we are not so you feel like i'm ready to, lizzie, and present case side has previously been accused of making racist comments when he blamed migrants for the countries economic crisis on start today, he said migration inputs and his yes is criminally organized. no, i thought we all africans and we cherish all african identity, but we refused to be a land of transit orlando settlement. this is not regular immigration, this is a displacement operation. it's supervised by criminal networks, the traffic human beings and organs, and also need to make money, but also the stabilize the country. the disease economy has been struggling for years, restoring debt, high inflation, and unemployment. that's pushed on citizens to risk their own lives by costing the

magistrate in to reach europe. the international organizations migration says $1895.00 people have died or gone missing on route from northern africa across the sea so far this year, including hundreds of children, just over 2400, died on the journey and all of 2022 syrup and commission president, as well as the timing and dutch prime ministers. all ensign is here to discuss a european union last month of the country, more than $1000000000.00 to help its economy. bots is comb with cabinets, including reinforcing the border to stop migrants from jenny into europe. human rights watch has accused the tendency and government of the collective expulsion of black migrants. it says about $200.00 have been left to fend for themselves. it's an easy border without jerry a. some have already died. it's not cable present, so i, it's long term times also tackle migration, whether a deal with the mess that he's rejected before could help reduce migration to your

through to new cfo and away from politics deals are being discussed. the towers have turned into days and days into nearly 2 weeks with many migrants still not rescued. so the height of the inside story. all right, let's bring it out. yes, for today's discussion from rome, we're joined by phone and then but i'm ready for the president of the international affairs institute, the think tank and full, but it's only an impass of the to the european union. from cute. as for joined by rene golf fee of human rights and, and to racism activist and from london, try to measure the see who is cynthia policy follow on the middle east and north africa program at the european council on foreign relations level. welcome to you will attract. let's start with you. given the erosion of democratic norms into news here, the fact that president chi side has rejected the terms of an i m f loan. i'm to said that his country won't become

a border god for other countries. why would you think that loading should? is he a 900000000 euros to help its economy, including 150000000 to help it address? migration would be a good idea. well, thank you for the, for inviting me on the to be to, to clear things out. first the, the 900000000 is linked to the future. acceptance of and i must deal, at least that is what the e u and, and some of the member states have been attains to, to put across the additional 150000000 to, to police the border so to speak. uh, is the, the real question and, you know, i mean, why, why would it be a good idea? it's probably better to say why they would believe it would be a good idea, or it's essentially doubling down on the, on the policy which they know. and the only policy tool that they believe that they have in the box. unfortunately, this approach hasn't worked in the past. it hasn't worked in libya and over the

past year of them trying it. margaret numbers have only increased so it doesn't bode well as willis a package. if indeed it, it goes ahead. do anything to ease the micro crisis will make it was a why does the you think it's so important to both the jan this is economy given as i said, the erosion of the democratic norms the i'm not sure i've got to correct the question, but it's because the one of them is above 6 in the when functioning, but really speaking, i think that you're treating countries in general in those countries that are in the southern parts of euro, but she's very likely to degrees launch ro, stains have a strong interest in disability ultimately, as i saw many, many reasons the management of monitors to disclose is not the only reason and the

we have a already know the size of the media to be installed to try is, is because of the neighboring countries allow us like to news. and this is why is an attempt which is going on for some ways to try to strike a deal with the government's indonesia that wouldn't come to us. several components is not only management, the lives of the souls. it's also not critical. nomics, the bbc is the object in all the north trade in investments. and he said he all of assisting can use that in the energy transition. the multiples, i think the visa, the view from the need to be sol, as far as the weekend, is defined between you as an agent and my soul, the, these, these we have solving the last remaining problems. it's always private. as the uh, the, i am asked to relax the terms of the financial deal,

the loan to tennessee or do you think the i m f will do that? um, once again the some trouble in the sending your question whether i or that as the sewing rules and it's up to the board of the i may have to decide on whether or not the conditions man's so as to be able for the match to deliver the assistance which has been promised and would be the decision to buy some time the be the government in your boss? certainly supposing. yeah, you know, the loan would be awarded by game activities and government bodies. not only do you repeat things that make the decision into bought of dialect, so i'm afraid that they wouldn't be students. the problem is the need to be solved before. uh, an agreement can be reached between young and last and asian gone. and this in turn is preconditioned for you to deliver. the problem is assistance all 9 other than

you and your the nation government, sorry, might be going on next to the you can all the visa systems, unless there is an agreement at the d i m. s. ram, as i said, a 150000000 euros. as part of this 900000000, you're a package to help to. does he address a migration? what do you think of it? is that a good idea or not? is it going to ease the migrant crisis? will make it worse to i think it's going to make the migrant crisis worse because um, just throwing money and the issue is not gonna solve that. i think least a with the current. uh, an ongoing thing might go into the price isn't unusual. we're seeing how migraines are being treated and how their human rights are being compromised. so it was striking this new deal. i think the migration prices will worsen,

especially with the waves of the partition that aren't going to happen. the consequence fee and the what they call the re admission process. so i don't think it's only a financial problem, but it's a lack of a certain strategy that is concerned with the human rights of migrants, especially that playgrounds in europe. orienting asia are antagonize and often treated poorly and looks down on i'm calling to stand. so i don't think it's, it's, um, it's a very good idea to do this. so what, what is, what lies behind the compromise that are of the human rights of migrants, right? now yes, cuz right now we're seeing uh, is it moved for or the past few weeks or who has been seeing ways of deeper station for such a hiring license and can use that for instance. and these violations compromise their physical safety. we've seen hundreds of migraines that stranded on the

technician, libyan and the technician, uh old jerry and border without water, without food. uh, we've seen children uh, pregnant women, people who are in a very critical health condition. and human rights organizations have little to no control on the situation and we're trying to salvage it. so we've been you, waves of different nations from europe, including tunisian migrants and other nationalities is going to, is only going to worse than uh, the situation because of the lack of a strategy that takes into account the human rights of these individuals. because we're not talking about international deals solely, this is concerned with the human lives in human beings who are, what are, what was their livelihood? the stakes. so yes, the topic shouldn't the you be improving its, its own migration policies and edits attitude to the human rights, making it easier for migrants to reach the in you before paying other countries to

stem the flow. yeah, absolutely. um, you know, this, this deal with, with jean is here is a migration policy and itself. and his reading was saying to the situation of, of sub saharan migraines that are passing through jan is here, or even why just staying and living and working in engine is here is um is a pulling uh, it's a humane as we speak now, they are dying on the borders where they had been force of the stranded. and so for the you to to now rush to come back to choose. yeah. because even a few days ago, you know what the european commission once was, briefing the press that there had been no, no progress on this deal. so it's not a rush fact to, to, in this, in these conditions, to try to put pen to paper on the deal. it shows you how, how you migration policy is unfortunate the point of desperation. and you know,

when this broad or memorandum of understanding was 1st raised back in june, the european commission president are set up on july and said that the migration component would be implemented when for respect to human rights or something to that effect. and unfortunately, it seems like, you know, there will be no clear conditions, no clear stipulations on this if it is to be rushed through as we are being led to believe right now. um, you know, instead of of trying to externalize the management of this problem, teaching is yet to libya, to other countries that are clearly incapable of doing so without severe human rights abuses. the european union and european members state should be trying to take control of this issue themselves. they should be trying to manage this issue themselves and it would be far more effective for them to do so. and i believe that it would also quell a lot of the anxiety within your at that comes from seeing my group from,

from seeing my grades arrive on thoughts and to people smokers. because then that governments would be taking much more control of this issue. instead of abandoning the issue to, to dictators to munitions and people smugglers. you talk about the, as i say, within your a, a, with people seeing these migrants arriving on on the shores of one understands that europe needs to, to manage migration to make it more orderly and structured. so the people don't lose their lives trying to get that, but the fact is, the e, you need these people doesn't that it needs more skill book has right now. yeah, i mean, um go to germany, go to italy. i even see united kingdom and there are huge labor shortages right now . there is a dire need for migrants. and, you know, the, the reason why i frame my last response is i did is because us in europe is not in the position. it is now due to a lack of policy options. there are plenty of policy options for creating safe and

legal hood for, for refugees, and for a better organizing and processing my grids. it's not a policy problem that europe has. it's a political, popular. politicians are too scared to even discuss these policies, not to know, try to, to adopt and advocate them because they believe that to do so would be political suicide. because since the early 19 ninety's, european governments has been kind of seating ground slowly and slowly to the far right and a bit to appease them on this topic, which has always been very exclusive and in the popular corrina. and so, you know, gradually bit by bit, so they've essentially painted themselves into a corner now 30 years later, where they can't use any of the policy tools at their disposal to solve the problem . because they believe to do so would be to to lose the debate that has been stocked against them for the last 30 years. but to not do so, we'll just make the problem worse and worse, and much more important than any politics. it will continue to lead to the deaths

of thousands of people every year. for the do you agree with that? to what extent is the new policy on migration being dictated right now by the rise of fall right policies and both national parliaments and in the parliament itself? the deficiency? yes. because the mind nation phenomenon migration has been explored to 5 clearly by a riotous political buy pc, probably 41 or 2 countries. martin found the these is a nominal which is why the, the mos we're getting baptists. and as a matter of fact, there is a going to do to the power drops that goes most european countries need minus that job market. that's pretty nice by that as bows in the sector and to truly expect jobs and stuff in the country like you to lead or in other sectors as well. what

can be, what cannot be a fall of the body. the thing countries is migration, which is not match, which is already related. so the idea solution would be a broad agreement between countries that are due to the central received my and that's in congress of origin. so as to be as possible to manage migration tools. and make it possible for me, i would ask to see the box of these are the exists and i would show markets. so it's not easy. i fully understand that. so the problem is the complex to set it up to a new data. uh, so the reason need to spend on both sides from the law since on the solve that migration is a structured on phenomenon that can only be managed to read solutions. my work goes out and these are the most european guns the only the only domain problem is how to visually these phenomena in the amount of that would make is

basically sustainable. in maultrie, i've been constant, so that might be a shuttle, and my controls will not increase the support for dr. keys, but it's a good bodies. raymond, has think you lost its moral compass in terms of its attitude to migrant. some refugees i'm sorry. can you repeat the question? i the sound cut off in the middle. how's the e? you lost its moral compass in terms of its attitude to migrants and refugees? yes, i mean with the we've seen what happened lately with the waves or the migrant to i think you're a business story is for the way, if it has been treated by grants all along, it has lost as tomorrow. kansas. i think my grants are not seen as human beings who are, who have been pushed by their economic conditions to,

to take on to the sea and the rest of their lives on the search of a better life. but as this threat to the security of europe, and they have been treated accordingly with seeing how people who try to rescue migraines has been condemned in europe as of what happened lately. so yes, i think europe has lost its moral compass when dealing with migrants because they're not looked at as human beings anymore, or they're looked at as this political problem that needs to be salvaged and uh, sold through international deals and protecting borders as well as we were hearing ream of europe needs these people, it needs skilled label. to what extent is a problem that but falls squarely the responsibility for which falls squarely with european governments of the year itself. and that it needs to sell the issue of

migration to people. uh huh. yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not about selling the, the, the issue it is, it is a p r problem to themselves. they are, the human experience has become the p r issue and the political debate. however, the issue with even with regulated migration is, is very complicated and complex it's, it's not very accessible. and i can tell you that even people who try to migrate through the legal means find the whole procedure. very human be a thing with the paperwork and the interviews and everything that you have to provide. so i think that you need a whole new perspective when it comes to migration a way that's to back to the dignity and respect the human life that it's going to. it's borders to me, to search for labor, to search for a better life where to search for, for jobs. basically,

a topic when you talked about to the european commission president us live on the line earlier, one of your answers when she announced this to see a deal, she said that it would be a multiple for you migration. i mean, what do you think she meant by that? is it even something to, to cro boss to easily does genuinely think the doing the right thing here. or are they doing this to a piece of you talked about the rise of the far right. you know, growing concerned and criticism from right wing politicians and the citizens who have begun to vote for them and larger numbers. i think it's a, it's a bit of both. um, so some of it is plain to the crowd as a signal fine. i mean, for the, on the line she signifying to the new center right far right, locked into european parliament that she is taking this issue seriously. and she's dealing with it, how they would have liked to deal with it. but, but you know,

before this m o u, what this deal was being set up to be the future model of a you migration deals the autonomy and deal with the, the libyan government of nation mccord and 2016 or 17, dump them in need to deal after the form of the interior minister and the deal with turkey to stem, the flow of syrian refugees were considered the model for, for europe and migration policy in the region. so this is very much just a, a continuation of that. and you know, if you speak to, to the technocrats or, or to those, you know, at the most senior levels who are, who are dealing with this policy. they do believe that it has been successful. you know, that it has stopped doing. it does lower numbers of migrants of refugees crossing into your which i think speaks more to the, to the very limited and, and the human nice way that they look at this problem. but also to the short term is and with which the problem is framed. i mean,

if you look at the statistics from the international organization of migration and from human rights organizations, none of these deal stuff, but anything to stem, the number of migrants that are coming with it has done is to increase the number of deaths in the mediterranean sea and in other routes that, that people are taking towards europe. so it's just made their lives more miserable . and you know, as we see now, they made these deals before and they're back making more deals because you're essentially externalizing this problem and it's offering to pay large amounts of money to other people to manage the migration crisis for them. these people know that this issue is very sensitive to the europeans. and so it's almost like europe has gotten itself into an extortion back of sorts. and so the cost of keeping migrants away from europe are, you know, they will keep going up and up. uh, even now offer the deal with libya was made you have

a new pressure is coming from eastern to be at this time you have president site, you didn't introduce yet trying to leverage the migration issue. president's d. c. in egypt, just unconnect, finish the migration issue. and so, you know, the longer that you are keeps using these kinds of deals as a model. there are more just just advertising itself. okay. open to extortion on this sort of under what, what do you make of that, that you know that this has become almost an extortion record for the in you have your ups. politicians and citizens become a new, a to the scale of the human tragedy here. disasters the wood, one, some spot more outraged, now seemed to provoke or i'd much ringing of hands at expressions of regret before being quickly forgotten the swept under the carpet. would you agree? i'm not sure i've got directv your question because he how you is very poor about uh, i agree with what has been said before that your opinion on which has not been able

to find a agreeable solutions to deal with by creation into a uh, with the socks and all about and sharing between units and countries in india, acceptances my mouse as being rather more if i may say as little successful externalizing the problem, asking countries on trying to see that's a lot to care about the problem. okay, so, so he has to be in the 1st spot which has been quoted and it's greg. we've tried to do the same with media and now we're trying to do something similar with tanisha. this is the sign that the problem is very difficult to manage. i fully understand the configuration a shadow to go see the issues that's been uh in order to before. busy by address, because as having just seen before, me on the need to guarantee these people that are needing the countries,

the human conditions of respectful basic fundamental human drives. on the other hand, there is a problem of these flows of mine and i was the last now in some ways mandatory regulates, is becoming politically honest, sustainable. even though the problem in terms of numbers, they could be sustainable batter sees they are exploited systematically, probably takes a bunch of you. it's becoming very complicated for governments to deal with this phenomenon without, without the assistance, all countries all transit. okay. now the gum. yeah, i'm sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but we're almost out of time. i want to get one more question in for re and bring 2 years ago in a report entitled lease will disregard the you and rights office of the commissioner said that the lack of human rights protection for migrants crossing the central mediterranean is not a tragic anomaly. but rather a consequence of concrete policy decisions practices by the european union member

states and institutions another act as, i mean, nothing's changed in 2 years up at the same question to you have yours politicians become a new a to the, to the, to the human tragedy here yes, i central lack of certain policies that protects the human rights of migrants is a direct factor either from the part of the european union or from our side. i think putting in place laws and regulations and studying. here's the current condition, and what keeps people to take on such even to decide to, to, to me, to europe is, is, is the way to, to salvage the situation. but i agree that the, the poor decision making that happened from both sides and the total disregard

for, for human life and human rights. this is what led to this crisis. and i, i'm going to repeat myself again, but i think it's important when you look at the migration a crisis as a, as purity as a political issue and not as a human rights issue. that's where you kind of lose your moral compass. that's where you start the i'm afraid we're going to have to end it many thanks indeed for the not the, the photo chee regowski and try to measure the sea and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the websites of algebra dot com for further discussion. join us on facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story out of course, you can join the conversation on twitter handle at a j inside story. for me, i agree and for the good of the team here. and so, thanks for watching. we'll see you again, bye for the, the

the, [000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm emily, angling. thanks for joining us. this is the new sale, a live from so hot coming up in the next 16 minutes. standing side by side on human trafficking is a new pass between 2 museums president and you're paying latest parts of europe and