it's, i saw this here trying to reach your across from that. it's raining and so how can the block square keeping out migraines? but it's human rights obligations. this is inside story. the hello. welcome to the program. i'm adrian, instead of going to the italian and dutch prime ministers and the european commission president had been in to nicea to sign a deal on financial aid. part of that will pay for a clamp down on migration. people wanting to start a new life and you are a put traveled to the country from across africa and elsewhere. june is he has been accused of a racist policy for expelling people now trapped on the border with libya, with a pod from entering. the allows migration from ukraine because of the country's war with russia, but it's paying to prevent african migrants reaching it shows of helping other

countries like libya, the face allegations of abusing migrants. human rights will shortly be discussing the use migration policy and the rights suppose seeking a better life in europe. but 1st, a report from out of here is sort of high that they thought they were heading to a back to future in europe. but those dreams came to a sudden, and then using authorities rounded up hundreds of black african migrants and less than stranded on the border with libya, with a will that's been going on for years. they've been. authorities refused to help leaving them in a hot byron stretch of does it with very little water or food, or some injured others pregnant along with that children, they've enjoyed long journeys, mostly from subsaharan, africa. and now this we are diary, one of the pro dies then it's i really feel that if i brought it up as soon as we got back to new people. so boss on this other players thought the government

doesn't want them into disease or migrant. so being helped by some local people, tensions are high in the board of thomas fox and others have been arrested that foster it's an dizzy in mind who stop to death last week in a fight with several migrants, human rights organizations as quote for emergency aid and shelter to be allowed in as soon as possible, the red crescent has reached some, but many have yet to be rescued. one o 2, so we have my guns, we all know to laws. we all make god that goes looking to beat up a good life. you know, we are not claiming, as we all know, to feel like the tendency and present case side has previously been accused of making racist comments when he blamed migrants for the countries economic crisis. on start today he said migration inputs and his yes is criminally organized. no outside. we'll africans and we cherish all african identity, but we refused to be a land of trends. it's orlando settlement does not regulate immigration, this is

a displacement operation. it's supervised by criminal networks, the traffic human beings and organs, and also need to make money, but also the stabilize the country. disease economy has been struggling for years, restoring debt, high inflation and unemployment. that's pushed on citizens to risk their own lives by crossing the magistrate and to reach europe. the international organizations migration says $1895.00 people have died or gone missing on route from northern africa across the sea so far this year, including hundreds of children, just over 2400, died on the journey and all of 2022, they are p and commission present as well as the tanya and ducks, prime ministers. all ensign is 0 to discuss 8 european union last month off of the country, more than $1000000000.00 to help its economy bots. it's come with cabinets, including reinforcing the border to stop migrants from jenny into europe. human rights watch has accused the tendency and government of the collective expulsion of

black migrants. it says about $200.00 have been less defensive themselves. it's an easy border with l. jerry, a, some have already died. it's not cable present, so i, it's long term times also tackle migration, whether a deal with the mess that he's rejected before could help reduce migration to your through to miss yes or away from politics deals all being discussed. baton is, have turned in 2 days and days into nearly 2 weeks with many migrants still not rescued. sort of height of the inside story. all right, let's bring it out. yes. for today's discussion from rome, we're joined by phone and then, but i'm ready for the president of the international affairs institute, the think tank and full, but it's only an impass of the to the european union. from cute. as for joined by rene golf fee of human rights and anti racism activist, i'm from london. try to measure the see who is cynthia policy follow on at least to

north africa program at the european council on foreign relations level. welcome to you will attract. let's start with you, given the erosion of democratic norms into news here, the fact that president chi side has rejected the terms of an i m f loan. i'm to said that his country won't become a border god for other countries. why would you think that loading should? is he a 900000000 euros to help its economy including 150000000 to help it address? migration would be a good idea. well, thank you personally for inviting me on um to be to declare things out. first the, the 900000000 is linked to the future. acceptance of and i must deal, at least that is what the e u and, and some of the member states have been attains to, to put across the additional 150000000 to, to police the border so to speak. uh,

is that the real question and, you know, i mean why, why would it be a good idea? it's probably better to say why they would believe it would be a good idea, or it's essentially doubling down on the only policy which they know. and the only policy tool that they believe that they have in the box. unfortunately, this approach hasn't worked in the past. it hasn't worked in libya and over the past year of them trying it, margaret numbers have only increased so it doesn't bode well. it will list a package, if indeed it, it goes ahead, do anything to ease the migrant crisis, will make it was a why does the you think it's so important to both the jan, this is economy given as i said, the erosion of the democratic norms, the i'm not sure i have got to correct the question, but it's because the modem is bucket seats in the one function above the real, me speaking. i think the european countries in general and those countries that are

in the southern parts of europe. but usually like feature degrees, lawrenceville stains, have a strong interest in disability. altima is i thought many, many reasons the management of monitors to disclose is not your duties. and the we have a lot of the size of the mid, easy reading and sort of tries is which is affecting the neighboring country. allow us like to news. and this is why is an attempt which is going on for some weeks to try to strike a deal with the governments into a new job that would encompass several components is not only management the lives of those. it's also not critical. nomics, the bbc is the project in all the not traded investments. and he said he all existing can use in the energy transition. the multiples, i think the visa,

the views for all the need to be sold before the weekend is defined between you to an agent and have a mouthful of these basically have solving the last remaining problems. it's always private. as the judge, the, i am asked to relax the terms of the financial deal, the loan to a, to does he or do you think the i m f will do that? um oh my hand, some probably ending on the sending your question whether i or less as its own rules and it's up to the board of the i may have to decide on whether or not the conditions man's so as to be able for the mass to deliver the assistance which has been promised and as being not the decision to buy some time the, the, the government in your boss submitted some bought things. yeah. you know, the loan will be awarded by the game after the decision on that. but it's not only

due reviews that make the decision into both of diana, so i'm afraid that they will be students. the problem is the need to be closed before an agreement can be reached between china and last and he's gone. and this in turn is preconditioned for you to deliver. the problem is assistance all 9 on the new and your to the canadian government for the next to the you cannot, the name of these are ceaseless unless there is an agreement to the i m. s. frame as i said, a 150000000 euros. as part of this 900000000, you're a package to help to raise your address. uh migration. um, what do you think of it? is that a good idea or or not? is it going to ease the migrant crisis? will make it worse to i think it's going to make the migrant crisis worse because i'm just throwing money and the issue is not gonna solve that. i think

least a with the current and ongoing migraines crisis and to use or we're seeing how migrants are being treated and how their human rights are being compromised. so it was striking this new deal. i think the migration prices will worsen, especially with the waves of the partition that aren't going to happen, consequent fee and that what they call the re admission process. so i don't think it's only a financial problem, but it's a lack of a certain strategy that is concerned with the human rights of migrants, especially that playgrounds in europe. orienting asia are antagonize and often treated poorly and looks down on i'm calling descended. so i don't think it's, it's, um, it's a very good idea to do this. so what, what is what lies behind the compromises that are of the human rights of migrants right now? yes,

because right now we're seeing at least for the past few weeks, or who has been seeing ways of zipper sanctioned for such a hearing. my friends and tenure just for instance, and these violations compromise their physical safe to we've seen hundreds of migraines that stranded on the technician, libyan and the technician, uh old jerry and border without water, without food. uh, we've seen children uh, pregnant women, people who are in a very critical health condition and human rights organizations have little to no control on the situation. and we're trying to salvage it. so we've been you, waves of different nations from europe, including tunisian migrants and other nationalities is going to, is only going to worse than uh, the situation because of a lack of a strategy that takes into account the human rights of these individuals. because we're not talking about international, do you sold the business concerned with

a human life and human beings who are or who was their livelihood is at stake. so yes, the topic shouldn't the you be improving its, its own migration policies and edits attitude to the human rights, making it easier for migrants to reach the in you before paying other countries to stem the flow. yeah, absolutely. um, you know, this, this deal with, with jean is, here is a, you migration policy and itself. and his reading was saying the, the situation of, of such a hard migraines that are passing through each in his ear or even why just staying and living and working and interesting is here is, is a pulling, it's into main as we speak now, they are dying on the borders where they had been force of the stranded. and so for the you to to now rush to come back to choose. yeah. because even a few days ago,

you know, the european commission once was briefing the press that there had been no, no progress on this deal. so to now rush back to, to in this, in these conditions, to try to put pen to paper on the deal. um, it shows you how, how are you migration policy is unfortunate the point of desperation. and you know when dis broder memorandum of understanding was 1st raised back in june. the european commission president are set up on july and said that the migration component would be implemented when for respect to human rights or something to that effect. and unfortunately, it seems like, you know, there will be no clear conditions, no clear stipulations on this. if it is to be rushed through as we are being led to believe right now. um, you know, instead of, of trying to externalize the management of this problem. teaching is here to libya, to other countries that are purely incapable of doing so without severe human

rights abuses. the european union and european member state should be trying to take control of this issue themselves. they should be trying to manage this issue themselves, and it would be far more effective for them to do so. and i believe that it would also qual, a lot of the anxiety within you, or that comes from seeing my group from, from seeing migrant arrive on thoughts and to people smokers. because then that governments would be taking much more control of this issue. instead of abandoning the issue to, to dictators to munitions and people smugglers, you talk about the, as i say, within your a, a, with people seeing these migrants arriving on on the shores of one understands that europe needs to, to manage migration to make it more orderly, and structured so the people don't lose their lives trying to get that, but the fact is, the e, you need these people doesn't that it needs more skills book is right now. yeah, i mean um, goes to germany, go to italy. i even at the united kingdom and they're

a huge labor shortages. right now, there is a dire need for migrants and, you know, the reason why i frame my last response is i did this because in europe is not in the position. it is now due to a lack of policy options. there are plenty of policy options for creating safe and legal hood for, for refugees and for better organizing and processing migraines. it's not a policy popping up that you're at because it's a political problem. politicians are too scared to even discuss these policies. nothing, no try to, to adopt and advocate them because they believe that to do so would be political suicide. because since the early 19 ninety's, european governments has been kind of ceding ground slowly and slowly to the far right and a bit to appease them on this topic, which has always been very explosive and in the popular corrina. and so, you know, gradually bit by bit they've essentially painted themselves into

a corner now 30 years later, where they can't use any of the policy tools at their disposal to solve the problem . because they believe to do so would be to to lose the debate that has been stocked against them for the last 30 years. but to not do so, we'll just make the problem worse and worse, and much more important than any politics. it will continue to lead to the deaths of thousands of people every year. further under the, do you agree with that? to what extent is the policy on migration being dictated right now by the rise of fall right, policies in, in both national parliaments and in the parliament itself there. 60 yes, because the my nation phenomenal migration has been explored to 5. clearly by right is political bodies in probably 41 or 2 countries more in psalms, and the not as easy as i nominate, which is why the, the most countries. and as

a matter of fact, there is a bunch of detail about it, probably adults because most european countries need my business, that job market. that's pretty nice by that is both in the i could come flip sector in to truly expect jobs and stuff in the country that keeps a lead or in other sectors as well. what can be, what cannot be a fall of the thing. countries is migration or which is not match, which is not regulated. so the idea solution would be a broad agreement between countries that are due to the same to receive my less encounters of origin. so as to be possible to match the migration tools and make it possible for me, i would ask to see the back of these are the exists and i would show markets. so it's not easy. i fully understand that. so the problem is the complex to set it up to evaluate the reason need to spend on both sides from the law since on the saw.

that migration is as structured on phenomena that can only be managed to read solutions. and my work goes out, and these are the most european countries, the only the only domain problem is how to regulate these phenomena in the amount of that would make is basically sustainable in mall, should've been constant. so that might be so, and my control is what about increased the support for dr. piece, but it's a good bodies. raymond, has think you lost its moral compass in terms of its attitude to migrant. some refugees, i'm sorry. can you repeat the question? i the sound cut off in the middle. how's the e? you lost its moral compass in terms of its attitude to migrants and refugees? yes, i mean with the we've seen what happened lately with the waves or the migrant to

i think you're a business story is for the way it has been treating migrants all along. it has lost as tomorrow. kansas, i think, migrants are not seen as human beings who are, who have been pushed by their economic conditions to, to take on to the fee and, and, and the rest of their lives on the search of a better life, such as this threat to the security of europe, and they have been treated accordingly with seeing how people who try to rescue migraines has been condemned in europe as of what happened lately. so yes, i think europe has lost its moral compass when dealing with migrants because they're not looked at as human beings anymore. they're looked at as this political problem that needs to be salvaged and uh,

sold through international deals and protecting borders. as well as really hearing ream of europe needs these people, it needs skilled label. to what extent is a problem that but falls squarely the responsibility for which fall squarely with european governments of the ear itself. and that it needs to sell the issue of migration to people a best uh, yeah it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not about selling the, the, the issue it is, it is a p r problem to them savvy. or the human experience has become a p r issue in a political debate. however, the issue with even with regulated migration is, is very complicated and complex it's, it's not the very accessible. and i can tell you that even people who try to migrate through the legal means find the whole procedure, very human, the thing with the paperwork and the interviews and everything that you have to

provide. so i think that you needs a whole new perspective when it comes to migration a way that's to texas and dignity and respect to the human life that it's going to. it's borders to, to search for labor to search for a better life or to search for, for jobs. basically, a topic when you talked about the european commission president us live on the line earlier. one of your answers when she announced this to nancy a deal, she said that it would be a model for you migration. i mean, what do you think she meant by that? is it even something to, to crow boss to even lead as genuinely think the doing the right thing here? or are they doing this to a piece of, you talked about the rise of the far right. you know, growing concerned and criticism from right wing politicians and the citizens who put the gun to vote for them in, in larger numbers. i think it's a, it's

a bit of both. um, so some of it is plain to the crowd is it's cigna fine. i mean, if i bumped the line she signifying to the, the new center right far right, locked into european parliament that she is taking this issue seriously. and she's dealing with that, how they would have liked to deal with it. but, but, you know, before this m o, u, what this deal was being set up to be the future model of the you migration deals of the autonomy and deal with the, the libyan government of nation, the court and in 2016 or 17, dump them in need to deal after the form of the interior minister and the deal with turkey to stem. the flow of syrian refugees were considered the model for, for europe and migration policy in the region. so this is very much just a, a continuation of that. and you know, if you speak to, to the technocrats or, or to those, you know, at the most senior levels who are, who are dealing with this policy. they do believe that it has been successful. you

know, that it has stopped doing. it does lower numbers of migrants of refugees crossing into your which i think speaks more to the, to the very limited and, and the human nice way that they look at this problem. but also to the short term is and with which the problem is framed. i mean, if you look at the statistics from the international organization of migration and from human rights organizations, none of these deal stuff, but anything to stem, the number of migrants that are coming with it has done is to increase the number of deaths in the mediterranean sea and in the other routes that, that people are taking towards europe. so it's just made their lives more miserable . and you know, as we see now, they made these deals before and they're back making more deals because you're but essentially externalizing this problem and it's offering to pay large amounts of money to other people, to manage the migration crisis for them. these people know that this issue is very

sensitive to the europeans, and so it's almost like europe has gotten itself into an extortion by consultants. and so the cost of keeping migrants away from europe are, you know, they will keep going up and up. uh, even now offer the deal with libya was made to have um, new pressure is coming from eastern to be at this time. you have present inside an engine is you're trying to leverage the migration issue. presidents, the sea in egypt, just unconnect 1st the migration issue. and so, you know, the longer that you are keeps using these kinds of deals as a model. there are more just just advertising itself. okay. open to extortion on this sort of under what, what do you make of that, that you know, that this has become over, some extortion record for the you have your ups, politicians and citizens become a new, a to the scale of the human tragedy here. disasters the wood, one, some spot more outraged,

now seemed to provoke or i'd much ringing of hands at expressions of regret before being quickly forgotten the swept under the carpet. would you agree? i'm not sure i've got directv your question because he, how you is very for about i agree with what has been said before that to you, if in union which has not been able to find a agreeable solutions to deal with by creation into a uh, with the socks and all about and sharing between units and countries in india, acceptances my mouse as being rather more if i may say as little successful in next to the lising problem asking countries or trying to see that's a lot to, to care about the problem. okay. so, so he has been the 1st one which has been quoted and it's greg. we've tried to do the same with media and now we're trying to do something similar with tanisha. this

is the sign that the problem is very difficult to manage. i fully understand the configuration a shadow to go see the issues and that's been a in order to be so. busy by others, because they have interest in before me on the need to guarantee these people that meaning that countries the human conditions of respectful basic fundamental human drives. on the other hand, there is a problem that sees flows of mine and also less now in some ways manda regulates, is becoming politically alan sustainable. even though a problem in terms of numbers, they could be sustainable batter sees they are exploited, systematically, probably takes a bunch of you. it's becoming very complicated for governments to deal with this and all without, without the assistance, all countries all transit. okay. now the gum. yeah. i'm sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but we're almost out of time. i want to get one more question in for re and bring 2

years ago in a report entitled lease will disregard the you and rights office of the commissioner said that the lack of human rights protection for migrants crossing the central mediterranean is not a tragic anomaly. but rather a consequence of concrete policy decisions practices by the european union member states and institutions and other actors. i mean, nothing's changed in 2 years, up at the same question to you have yours politicians become a new a to the, to the, to the human tragedy here. yes, i think lack of certain policies that protects the human rights of migrants is a direct factor. either from the part of the, the european union, or from our side, i think putting in place laws and regulations and studying. here's the current condition. and what keeps people to take on

such even to decide to, to, to me, to europe is, is, is the way to, to salvage the situation. but i agree that the poor decision making that happened from both sides and the total disregard for, for human life and human rights. this is what led to this crisis i. i'm going to repeat myself again, but i think it's important when you look at the migration a crisis as a, as purity as a political issue and not as a human rights issue. that's where you kind of lose your moral compass. that's where you start the i'm afraid we're gonna have to end it many thanks indeed for the not the, the photo chee regowski and try to measure the c and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the websites of algebra dot com

for further discussion. join us with our facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on twitter handle at a dra inside story for me, adrian, for the good of the team here. and so thanks for watching. we'll see you again the the to the journey of those 10 years in which the shakonda ward for translation and international understanding has become the most important translation award from adams to the arabic language in the world. the award announces that the nomination

periods, the 2023 starts from the 1st of march to the 31st of july. applications are accepted through the awards official website at w w, w dot h t, a dot q a the, for that one. carrie johnston, the info, how the top stories on out just the air heat waves are sweeping across the launch pots of the world. china has observed its highest ever temperature of 51.7 degrees celsius. more rec codes are set to be broken into us and your son is on the european union. have announced a new deal that will see the sides. what together on migration on the economy, the 5 parts on includes tax and legal migration. president case site and i slipped on the line and signed the memorandum of understanding in soon as we will work this tanisha on.