it will not be history, repeating itself to a more likely be remembered for what she does in this new position. an intimate portrayal of a family and challenging times. no simple way home people that's, that's what i know what too much on a jersey to the hello, i'm down, jordan and joe, i'm with the top stories here and i'll just say right, international pressure is mounting on this has to lead us to restore constitutional authority the african union is given themselves as a deadline of 15 days to return to the barracks and the he, you and fonts of cuts off financial aid set of goals. all physician lead on presidential hope for has been charging, crossing, and interaction. other offensive, state prosecutor says it was months, sancho would remain in custody after being detained on friday. south coast as the case against them is politically motivated, that he will be prosecuted for calling for insurrection of criminal conspiracy. undermining, state security, plotting against state to authority,

actions and maneuvers, intended to compromise public security and create serious political unrest in the criminal conspiracy in connection with a terrorist enterprise. as well as the 10s of thousands that protested across israel against the government's new law that he missed. the power of the supreme court, largest demonstration was held instead of the win is to make it a $170000.00. people turned out the smith was up that protest in tennessee. the government says it's going to press on with even more do additional changes and there is more serious stuff to come. they want to change the make of the committee that appoints supreme court judges in the moment this done by of a judge is by lawyers by politicians, from the opposition on the government. they want to change that. so the ruling government ruling policy of point supreme court judges back could affect the making of the pay for decades to come. the government is ignored, even appeals for us present. joe biden,

to look for consensus amongst the populations, protested, improve back on the streets for the 2nd day to come on in terms of the reservation . that important communications around is coming just a day for president dana, but i wanted call for the expansion of the house saying it was necessary to fight from russian president vladimir putin says, initiatives presented by african leaders and china could be the basis of peace and the war with ukraine speaking in moscow after meeting african heads of state. he said some of the steps proposed by them were already implemented, but others needed to action from ukraine. so just now you should go to the things that are virtually impossible to implement. it's like a cx 5, but the crate is advancing there on a strategic offensive. how do we hold of 5 when they're advancing on us? i think we'll begin piece talks. we never said no to that. but if key, if has a decree for bidding piece dogs, what can you demand of us? this can only be a bilateral initiative, but the african initiative, in my opinion,

can become the foundation of certain processes towards a peaceful resolution. just like china's initiative, there is no competition, no contradiction here showing the good ukraine's interior ministry says a russian rocket attack has killed one person, an injured 5 in the northeastern city, assuming the city was occupied by russian troops last year for several weeks. for keith, we took control, the former yes, president donald trump has been holding a campaign rally in pennsylvania where he promised to make america great again. whole show that despite his mounting legal troubles, trump remains a favorite among republican primary voters. congress presidential candidates 2024 tramples i use the valley to announce that he would reinstate his circles most in trouble. but if we connect while i'm re elected, we will bring back the trump travel, then even bigger than before, to keep radical islamic terrace, and jihad is out of our house. and

i wouldn't, i wouldn't speak about it in the before situation. but let's look how that worked out. we went for years without virtually a problem and he's in bangladesh and the rest of the dozens of opposition support is doing anti government violence and the capital a 5 to a gas and probably a 100 demonstrators. who's that going for funding a seamless resignation, a group of indian position and peace is visiting the volunteer northeastern state of money pool. the conflict was spot off to the minority. christian cooper, community protested against demons by the hindus majority may take people for special benefits. so those are the headlines that he was continuously and i'll just say are off to the bottom line states. we've been searching for the

a hi steve clements and i have a question if the lawn slog of war and ukraine has no end in sight. what should the west message on ukraine be? let's get to the bottom line. the wars don't and like in hollywood movies, there's no magic moment when everyone just the size, the lay down their arms. and there's no clean victory. even when the warring parties sit down, then it goes, shape. all the fighting only gets worse because each side wants to improve their bargaining position. the west has so far spent more than a $100000000000.00 to support the ukraine. more efforts, besides imposing crippling sanctions to kick rush out of the global economy. but from a military standpoint, the war looks and feels more like a stalemate with neither side able to achieve total outright victory. so is it time for the west to re think the best options for the ukraine, russia war, and what would those options look like?

today we're talking with former senator and former secretary of defense, chuck kagle, who made history as the 1st enlisted combat veteran to serve in that position. and edward loose the us editor for the financial times and author of the retreat of western liberalism. gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today and let me just start out with you for a moment. we were both at the aspen security for him recently. and i was interested in the view that sort of permeated the crowd that there was somehow going to be a knock out blow or an effective counter offensive in this war or something that would bring it to some sort of definitive tip, if you will, in the way this would go and we heard over and over again, how russia had already lost this conflict. and i, and i read your piece recently in the financial time saying there will be no hollywood ending to this. tell us what you think the gap is. if you agree with me between what the strategic class is thinking about the green conflict and where do you think the reality is?

i would state broadly agree with you a summary of what happened in aspen and look, i think there is set an expectation. although a mounting frustration, so that it hasn't happened yet that this condra offensive will do dealer no cap block away the weekend, a significant sort of shadow, the dumbass possibly even crime it. and that puts ins, loss will be sealed by the end of this summer by the end of the full before we move into another winter. but there is managing frustration with the allegation, the by the administration and its allies in, you know, giving you crating the tools to finish that job. and i, i do think that that's a little bit simplistic, i think, ex, pay expectations that are a little bit high because ukraine's being asked to attack, it's dramatic success as last year where in defense it's much easier to defend than to attack a and b rusher. as puts in for the vacations and mine fields 30 kilometers deep in

some places across, across the lines in, in eastern and southern ukraine that, that, that ukraine's now trying to pro, it's an rather pretty difficult task without having mass casualties to break through those. and so i think these expectations are a little bit hyped secretary hazel. i'm wondering, given your experience with war and conflict, how the ukraine war is shaping up. and what are you worried about in the defining nature of this contest right now. i say, steve and they say, yeah, this is a war, not just between russia, ukraine, this is a war about the future of a world border the 1st time and 75 years since the post world war 2 world order that we seen anything like this occur the balkans was a different situation, but this now is

a challenge to the world or it isn't just the find them to confide to russia. and ukraine, as we know, was all the nato countries involved as much as a lot of people want to say in that like, well, we don't want to really start something. we don't want to go too far. but i think that's mistake because the only question we ask ourselves is, how does this get time is not on the side of the credits for obvious reasons. and i think now is the time where united states or allies to pour the kind of resources into this effort as more than just necessary. i think you looked at the political strategic issues on the russian side. i think i'm a good weekend. i don't know how we can do years, but i think he just week. and i think it may be deeper and wider than we know what the press those reading anybody else. but this is going to be and continue to be

aware of a treasure with until something breaks here. another aspect of this, steve is, is, uh, what happened here a couple of days ago when the russians attacked a grand storage area right on the border of romania, you've got things going on and bail roofs. so this is not a time just to quit. ringback or bring your hands either your hand or you're not it . and the west is got to see it that way and i'll just in with this, you know, we've learned to history about what appeasement branch and i think the president president by i think who's done a pretty good job managing all this. the last 16 months is got to go back to the truman days and i as an hour and 1956. what eisenhower about the french and the

british as to is, it said though, we didn't find where, where to so, so you can reorganize your colonies and that's the kind of presidential courage that i think we're gonna, we're gonna have to have your i recognize that the campaign is next year, i think it would really go wrong. bad on, on the printing and side binding will be blank for that. i know that by the republicans, all that is, is, is true. but, but this is really a defining time, i think, in our history, and i think it world is. i'm just interested if you think the stakes that you just laid out very articulately require a different kind of pastor from the us and nato allies. and i do it, and i don't, i don't think it just, it's a simple thing here that we've got. well, we'll just kinda go along and give them enough and so on. no, that's not going to work. and i would be in favor of, of escalating this to the point. it gets you to where you want to be in this thing

. on your terms on ukraine is jarvis, but it's more than you brand is bigger than you. you great. one point i would make here, it's interesting to me that russia is the brutal invader of another country and says, every time you bring, describe near or hit somewhere else, rush, your says, oh, fall, you know, you have to play by certain rules and work very frank we don't, i mean we can hit your visuals, we can do all the damage, your surveys and all the atrocities that are going on. we don't have to follow rules which, but you do, we've got to recognize that and, and be honest about that. say no, no, no worries, more is it. and you're going to get the full force of the united states in our nato allies because again, this is about the future. it is the leaders of nato and the west. don't understand that. then i think we're going to be a lot of trouble because you can't let him nibble away and nibble away. obviously,

china is watching this. everybody's watching this in, in it will turn the world upside down. if we can get away with this. and so that we've, we've got to look sorry in my opinion, not blindly, not, wiley obviously got smart about it, but we're kind of and never, never land right now. and we've got to get out. but i would be quite keen to know exactly how it goes when we're talking about escalation, ne, typing fully fully. and we actually talking about a direct declaration of war on russia because it's sort of almost sounded like that . and i don't think, i don't think that's a so that's what, why the foreign policy goes, you're considering the nuclear dimensions of that conflict, or what if, if the implication of what's actually hagel saying is that we should enable ukraine to retake crime in and everything. i'm pre 2014. now. that is going to involve. yes, i see a lot of, i mean, i'm massive. as a presenter,

lensky believes that taking back crimea is important for those that are advocating immediate or near term ukrainian membership in nato. it is designed that every square inch of ukraine as formerly recognized, be defended by nato so. so by definition, the inclusion of crimea is part of that. i can't imagine a car about uh, being permitted by the leadership in ukraine unless you know something i don't know . and so that is key would jeopardize is political leadership a few crime. if people fainted, that desire to re gain creamier as well as the other territories. but now there are a couple of things here. one is this counter offensive. we're in late july the same time, last year. there was a lot of frustration with the lack of progress and ukraine's fast counter offensive . that came all the big gains, the regaining of concave. the end of class on right on the territories arrived at a cut in september, late august, september,

early october. so it might be that we're getting prematurely frustrated with with this. my 2nd point though is that the puts in has basically lost and is in these games with this full. i don't, i don't agree that we're never, never land where person hasn't been defeated. i think that person's key word, right, which would destroy you kind as a nation, to deposed as a landscape regime to this united, the west and to use energy as a leverage to this the night them 5 on each one he is singularly filed. so now that could be reversed. i believe if president, if donald trump is re elected as president, and that in these games could be a, from the west point of view and the price point of you could be reversed. but right now i don't, i don't think that putin is done anything other than lost and is in a terrible dilemma. chuck, my question to you is, what do you know about the stability and instability around vladimir putin?

that becomes a factor in this conflict. well 1st just briefly left, they responded what answer i'm not saying as much declared. busy words free or declare war? no that's, that's not what i'm saying. there's something before that, that we can be doing it. we're not doing it as i've already noted. it celebrated what we can do in the kinds of equipment in our moments that the f sixteens and so on the we're, we're giving you a crime because we don't do this. this is kind of. busy on and on, and russia will be the way, no matter what you say about food and maybe not. they not last internally, but yeah, he's not one, he's not taking, he's not taking roger, but they are in control. russians are 20 percent of ukraine. that's pretty

significant. now, to your question, steve, i say is, there's, there's a lot to this, as i've already said, it is, you both know the intelligence. how strong is, how much trouble internally is here. i don't know. but what i do know is i think he is in some trouble. i think he's weakened. that's one reason why we need to accelerate now and do more. now i agree with with it that there's maybe too much quick judgment about how how slow things are going through ukrainians. it is easier to the fact that meeting was all the time drafts in the minds. and so i'm sorry, so you gotta be smart about that, but they've got it ukrainians, they've got they have the equipment, they've got to have everything that they've got now and more because what i'm saying is this isn't gonna last forever. month after month after month is is

dragged on. we've got a. busy residential election. there are other elections in europe and they don't countries. next year, the nato countries will start off. right. we've got some of that in this trend. we've got members of congress who are saying, well, we gotta stop now, we'd get them and given them enough be, you know, so what that will occur the longer this goes and that's, that's my point here. let me ask you another question, ad i worry a little bit. what if you think about china being an extraordinary challenge both, you know, opportunities to fix world problems, but also a competitive challenge and a lot of different ways. how in many ways ukraine conflict could potentially be a wonderful trap, both for russia and the west. that basically diminishes resources power spring, while china just rises, do i have it wrong? it's not necessarily. i mean,

i think that the one impact that you can see from food, things invasion of ukraine on china is finally when i say you can see which i think we can semis, we can guess is it is making the chinese chasing, paying in particular, think twice about the costs of a full blown amphibious assault on the taiwan. i mean that, that the surprising degree of that, of ukrainian defiance and effectiveness, which is just not something, well, what are the costs? i mean, let me just to be pushed back for a minute. the russia has not been pushed out of the international economy. it, there is a growing kind of anti, what mean on another level, if you begin looking at, take, take, or, you know, western had off for a moment and ask to go to, to chuck cagle's point. if you look at the other dimensions of global power out there, russia's not alienated all nations of, i mean, it's not as isolated as we would like. it's been saw more resilient in this conflict. then i think we want to believe it to be. and so, compared to, compared to where russia was before the special ministry operation, right. it's in

a very bad place. yeah. so he's putting, put in was master of all he's of 8 in february 2022. now his life expectancy, or his jump expectancy at least isn't very much in question. bill bags, as the director said something memorable about the per goshen protein encounter boots and of course cold provision a traits i wish we can meet on the one thing in russia. it means your dad, 3 days after he's meeting him for tea this out, or is it or hate to answer bill by that said something very memorable, which is either the emperor has no, no clothes, the emperor being potent or he's taking a very long time to get dressed. burton is in a very precarious situation because of this for he because those now loyalty questions across the ministry. he's not in a position to promote competent cyber loyalty. he has to value loyalty of baffled else. so we can't get rid of defense minister showing who has failed because get rid of garage him off the lever of the war effort who has failed. he has to prize

loyalty because he's vulnerable, which means is the ability to prosecute this war. it becomes less, less robust as his own position as his own political power becomes most shaky. so i think the idea that russia hasn't paid for this and put it in particular hasn't and that the elite surround him, a call and have access to that. but most of the wealth haven't paid. i think that's wrong. i pushed back re strongly on that. and yeah, the yeah, that the, the point is that it may or exactly the reasons that i'd say that now is the time for the west to accelerate it for exactly the reasons that the head is talking about. and i agree with what it said, that makes sense to me for us to push it harder now and do more now because i've, i'd say who is in some trouble and i don't think it gets better put, well let me ask you chuck and i spoke up about

a week ago with the senator from your state, senator deb fisher, who is on the war path, accusing the administration and the west of saying you're not taking this more seriously. you're not taking american defense seriously. you're not producing the munitions both for what we need in this conflict and what we need for you. not us security. jake sullivan basically said this war is going to be fought in one, not with app 16 and exotic weapon systems. but on 155 millimeter m o shelves, or 152, which are russian made, which they can get because they can, they can use either. and we can't keep ukraine supply now and i look at it as a student of conflict and more. ukraine is not the biggest conflict and the work. imagine how can we have so little ammo in the world to make a difference? your thoughts as well. i would say that what jake said and what depth fisher said, both of them are right. but you combine both of their points,

that's where it's going to be won or lost on all those things. but the most important thing is the will of ukrainian people, which has been under plate undervalued and under stated in a huge mistake. that proved, made as well as underestimating the strength of the west and nato to come to the rescue essentially and help them. so it isn't just one or 2 of those things that jake said or dep. fisher said, it's all those things together. let me just one quick thing about the airport airpower. is it really important because it gives you an additional part of the truck that you, that you bring to russia of air power goods. and it can be defined and defined by word how, where you want to use it. but for that that would be critical. that'd be so critical were ukraine. so i,

i know i've heard the criticisms that the fisher and others are made mainly republicans administration. i think as i said earlier, i think generally the president and his team a job pretty good job. but i think we've got to do more, and i've said that all that is, that's the 1st time i said this program. and let me just bring just though to wrap up the show and get your, your final thoughts on, on things like air power. i mean, you, you seem to be convinced by jake sullivan, the president's national security advisor, sort of proof pulling your power point. you have to say, hey, yeah, we can get them and deploy them. but not that important. what's important are basically, you know, where you cut your, uh, reading and writ written a check, you know, basically simple systems. and, and, you know, i, i sort of feel like there's an honest debate going on out there. chuck kagle is saying we should be overwhelming. the ukrainians with everything we possibly can do in this moment. and i did not hear that either from tony blinking or jake sullivan . but were you sold by by? uh, so jake sullivan about what he said?

yeah, just to be clear, i am not a minute vx but, but this sensor is differences of opinion amongst ministry x. but you know, there is a debate and what jake sullivan. so i did the converse of the fireside chat with him, as he know at sad was of course they need f sixteens, and of course they need long range of 10 to read the full that future security you said, but in terms of the counter offensive of the situation now, what they need is to get through minds in because both the russians i'm the ukrainians have good at defense equipment and patriot missiles, et cetera. this is not at the moment a battle in the skies. this is a battle on the ground. and therefore i or imperative is to get 15 men a may time whatever it is, shells. if i munitions it, shells, it's the mining equipment and it is of course, very controversial controversially plus the bumps. that will be another show. yeah

. i checked this real quick, my opinion, it's all those things, right? it's all that you need. so chuck it all in. in our last moments. um, what you've advocated for honestly, is a different posture than what we're doing now with ukrainians. you're saying overwhelm? we're basically doing just in time and slightly above. i'm just interested. what do you know? what do you feel in your god? do you feel that america is going to shift the way you've? you've recommended? or do i think you're going to shift how get it to over well to, to help the provide ukrainians with all of the above which you upset is so important right now. yeah, i don't, i don't know. i mean there's, there's strong voices on, on both sides there. and again, i go back to the, the election in 2024. that's the, the dark heavy cloud that hangs over everything. and you guys know that, you know,

the politics of this and especially the risk and the chances and what's the state in the presidential race and a congressional races next year. so, you know, the bite administration, and i'm not saying that they're developing policy based on what's best for political, but that's a reality that i know they're looking at. you look at the convers, i mean, were paralyzed, and this time we can't gover in this country. we're politically divided and so both parties use all issues and this issue is going to be huge. and i know it's a tough issue for president. very tough. but that's why i say, go back and read little bit about harry truman and about dwight eisenhower and some tough decisions they made politically. but, but we're right for the interest long term interest of our country peace in the world in the world or. well, thank you. do you both fantastic discussion, former defense secretary, chuck kagle, and the us editor of the financial times. edward loose,

thank you so much for being with us today. thank you. so what's the bottom line? ukraine's leaders say they must win, or else they're going to lose their homeland rushes. leaders say there's no way they're ever going to back down the western backers of ukraine. well, they want to see a decisive knock out blow, and some even want to see the foundations of putting this kremlin come tumbling down. but there are no signs of any of that happening. what is likely is horrible, maybe even worse than what we've seen thus far. so now we side is testing the other side spirit and resolve the pain that the west views, even though it's nothing like what ukrainians are experiencing is likely to go up. so what will happen to break that result? my gut tells me that rising populism in the u. s. during a presidential election is going to make for ukraine conflict, something to run against and not run for. that's the big challenge. and that's the bottom line, the

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