you and hcr is years and someone told us that they have never seen a dispatch. many people say that even when they are about to prophecies neighboring chad. they also been talking to was an incredibly tragic day, seeing refugee streaming in his turn into a violent night. they seemed terrible things experienced unimaginable hardships to come this far. what happens now? the hello, i'm elizabeth ron, i'm in the hall with the top stories on which is 0 focused on the prime minister has described the killing of $44.00 people at a political conference as an attack on democracy. so the suicide bombing targeted religious cottrell, in the job near the border with the finest on the policy, is aligned with the government. the area was once a stronghold of the pocket, funny thought upon which has condemned the bombing the i don't know how and what

exactly happened. i just saw a spock into the big bang. i was sitting close to the stage and the leadership was near the stage after the blast eyesore, hundreds of people lying on the ground and people started firing in the loss of firing. first we shifted our leadership from the saying, this is what happened. come on high that has more from his level bod, a deadly attack and by jo are in the idea of one bar. the drug plug is gone. farmer drive malaria the attack or targeting a party well, good from the dummy. i tell all of my lawyer boarding a convention. the party lead uh, from the area had been case the number of fatalities driving by the all because many of them are critically wounded. many of them, of course, had to be taken out and fretted across the super shotwell, where the american facilitator gates the more seriously wounded. now this is not

the 1st attack, got it out against the dummy. i tell them i, it's um, it's need to have this gaped, at least has to narrow escape then suicide bombing. so our deadly attack indeed, once again and focused on their dog. and it's all happening at the time when the special on why of the chinese rather than isn't focused on to commemorate danielle of the china plug this on economic, florida dog, george. they go to the very died and it's normal but, and across, across the country. all the height, the data is selma by chance president has met, sneezes qu, need is to negotiate the piece for the enter the crisis. it follows the ultimate, i'm issued by the west african regional block, one of the army to reinstate the president within one week will face military action. the one to lead as a warning eco was against any foreign ministry intervention off the address has moved from a boucher to it's not clear what proposal president mohammed it was that'd be

hesitate continues. yeah. but what was clear was the leaders of the economic community of west african states white in a hurry, even before his meeting with the coordinators in the year, which was also agreed to the meeting was agreed to by the coordinators and as yet. but of course meet leaders meeting and i believe i have already issued the altima to him saying that they have given the post or just image of the new with autism is one week to release president obama buzz on his family. and members of his cabinet is coming to the military, detention also reinstate him to office immediately. otherwise they will send him a troops to intervene. tens of thousands of people have been evacuated from flood prone areas of aging down tools from typhon doc. so we continue to hit the chinese capital millions of people in northern china, around to the highest level of funding. those restaurants, museums, and popular tourist sites of enclosed flashing between palestinian factions was

code 6 people in lebanon's. i know the holloway refugee camp. a seas fund has now been a great load. counting is underway and central african republic. a referendum was held on extending presidential terms and allowing current and former leaders to run again. if positive could allow president foster lachelle as to whether i should stay in office potentially for another 16 years. the sound of columbia as president, gustavo petro has appeared and cooled off to his arrest on saturday. nicholas petro, his face was charges of money laundering, president petro has vowed to stay out of legal proceedings. thousands of brazilian women have taken to the streets of rio de janeiro to protest against violence and racism. the valley is part of the black woman's march, which takes place every yeah, demonstrations of demanding more government support. well those are the headlines on algebra 0 to stay with us. the bottom line is coming up next. thank you for watching.

the a. hi steve clements and i have a question. if the long slog of war and ukraine has no end in sight, what should the west message on ukraine be? let's get to the bottom line. the wars don't and like in hollywood movies, there's no magic moment when everyone just the size the lay down their arms and there is no clean victory. even when the warring parties sit down and associate, all the fighting only gets worse because each side wants to improve their bargaining position. the west has so far spent more than a $100000000000.00 to support the ukraine war effort. besides imposing crippling sanctions to kick russia out of the global economy. but from a military standpoint, the war looks and feels more like a stalemate with neither side able to achieve total outright victory. so is it time

for the west to re think the best options for the ukraine, russia war, and what would those options look like? today we're talking with former senator and former secretary of defense, chuck kagle, who made history as the 1st enlisted combat veteran to serve in that position. and edward loose the us editor for the financial times, an author of the retreat of western liberalism. gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today and let me just start out with you for a moment. we were both at the aspen security form recently and i was interested in the view that sort of permeated the crowd that there was somehow going to be a knock out blow or an effective counter offensive in this war or something that would bring it to some sort of definitive tip, if you will, in the way this would go and we heard over and over again, how russia had already lost this conflict. and i, and i read your piece recently in the financial time saying there will be no

hollywood ending to this. tell us what you think the gap is. if you agree with me, between what the strategic class is thinking about the green conflict and what do you think the reality is? i would state broadly agree with you a summary of what happened in aspen and okay, i think there is the expectation, although i'm mounting frustration so that it hasn't happened yet that this condra offensive will the data, not capital. i always a, we gain a significant sort of shadow, the dumbass possibly even crime it. and that puts in loss will be sealed by the end of this summer by the end of the full before we move into another winter. but there is managing frustration with the navigation, the by ministration added to allies in europe, not giving you crane the tools to finish that job. but i do think that that's a little bit simplistic. i think i expect expectations that are a little bit high because ukraine's being asked to attack,

it's dramatic success is last year we're in defense, it's much easier to defend men to attack a and b rusher is put in fortifications and mine fields 30 kilometers deep in some places across, across the lines in, in eastern and southern ukraine that, that the ukraine's now trying to pro, it's a relatively difficult task without having mass casualties to break through those. and so i think these expectations are little bit hyped. secretary, hey, go. i'm wondering, given your experience with war and conflict, how the ukraine war is shaping up and what are you worried about in the defining nature of this contest right now. as a seasoned advisor in this is a war not just between rushing and crane. this is a war about the future of a world border the 1st time and 75 year system post world war 2. busy order that

we seen anything like this occur the balkans was a different situation. but this now is a challenge to the world, or it isn't just the find a good kind of fine to russia. and ukraine, as we know was all the nato countries involve as much as a lot of people want to say in, at, like, well we, we don't want to really start something. we don't want to go too far. but i think that's mistake because the only question we ask ourselves is, how does this get time is not on the side of the credits for obvious reasons. and i think now is the time where united states or allies to pour the car resources into this effort as more than just necessary. i think you looked at the political. busy strategic issues on the russian side. i think i think

clinton is leaking. i don't know how we can do years, but i think he just week. and i think it may be deeper and wider than we know what the press knows, reading anybody else. but this is going to be and continue to be of. busy of a treasure with proven until something breaks here. another aspect of this, steve is, is what happened here a couple of days ago when the russians attacked a great uh, storage area right on the border of romania. and you've got things going on in bail ruse. so this is not a time just to quit. busy or bring your hands either your hand or you're not it. and the west is got to see it that way and i'll just in with this, you know, we learn to history about what appeasement branch and i think the president president by i think who's done

a pretty good job managing all this. the last 16 months is got to go back to the truman days and i as an hour and 1956. what eisenhower about the french and the british, as she was said though, we didn't find where, where to so, so you can reorganize your tony's and that's the kind of presidential courage that i think we're gonna, we're gonna have to have your i recognize that the campaign is next year i think it would really go wrong. bad on, on the printing and side binding will be blank for that. i know that by the republicans, all that is, is, is true. but, but this is really a defining time, i think, in our history, and i think it world is. i'm just interested if you think the stakes that you just laid out very articulately require a different kind of pastor from the us and nato allies. i do it, i don't, i don't think it just, it's a simple thing here that we've got. well, we'll just kinda go along and give them enough and so on. no,

that's not going to work. and i would be in favor. busy of escalating this to the point that gets you to where you want to be in this thing, on your terms on your brain a service, but it's more than your brain is bigger than you grade. one point i would make here, it's interesting to me that russia is the brutal invader of another country and says, every time you bring, describe near or hit somewhere else, rush just as oh, fault, you know, you have to play by certain rules and work fair. you frank, we don't, i mean we can hit the rules, we can do all the damage, your surveys and all the atrocities that are going on. we don't have to follow rules, but, but you do, we've got to recognize that and, and be honest about that. say no, no, no worries, more distribution. and you are going to get the full force of the united states in our nato allies because again, this is about the future. it is,

the leaders are made on the west. don't understand that. then i think we're going to be a lot of trouble because you can't let him nibble away and nibble away. obviously, china is watching this. everybody's watching this in, in it will turn the world upside down. if we can get away with this. and so that we've, we've got to look sorry in my opinion, not blindly, not wiley, obviously gotten smart about it, but we're kind of and never, never land right now. and we've got to get out. but i would be quite keen to know exactly how it goes when we're talking about escalation, nato being fulfilled in what we actually talking about. a direct declaration of war on russia because it's sort of almost sounded like that. and i don't think, i don't think that's a, that's what, why the foreign policy goes here. can you learn the nuclear dimensions of that conflict or? well, if, if the implication of what's actually haggle, saying is that we should enable ukraine to retake crime in and everything. pre 2014

. now that is going to involve, yes, i turn my feet on it. like, i mean a massive as a present is a lensky believes that taking back crimea is important for those that are advocating immediate work near term ukrainian membership in nato. it is designed that every square inch of ukraine as formerly recognized, be defended by nato so. so by definition, the inclusion of crimea is part of that. i can't imagine a car about uh, being permitted by the leadership in ukraine unless you know something i don't know . and so that in ski would jeopardize is political leadership. a few great. if people fitted that is i to re gain crimea as well as the other territories. but there are a couple of things here. one is, this counter offensive were in late july the same time, last year. there was a lot of frustration with the lack of progress and ukraine's best counter offensive

. that came all the big gains, the regaining of concave, the end of class on right on the territories around that occurred in september late august, september early october. so it might be that we're getting prematurely frustrated with with this. my 2nd point though is that the puts in has basically lost and his and his games with this full. i don't, i don't agree that were never, never land where person hasn't been defeated. i think that person's key word, right, which would destroy ukraine as a nation, to deposed as a landscape regime to this united, the west, and to use energy as a leverage to this, the night them forever. and each one he is singularly filed. so now that could be reversed. i believe if president, if donald trump is re elected as president, and that in these games could be a, from the west point of view and the price point, i mean, could be reversed. but right now i don't, i don't think that putting is done anything other than lost and is in

a terrible dilemma. chuck, my question to you is, what do you know about the stability and instability around vladimir putin? that becomes a factor in this conflict. well, 1st just briefly left. they responded, what answer. i'm not saying yeah, let's declare world war 3 or declare war. no that's, that's not what i'm saying. there's something before that that we can be doing that we're not doing it as i already know it. it celebrated what we can do in the kinds of equipment in our moments that the f sixteens and so on the we're, we're giving you a crime because we don't do this. this is kind of. busy on and on, and russia will be the winner. no matter what you say about food and maybe you know, may not last internally, but yeah, he's not one, he's not taking keys,

he's not taking roger, but they are in control. the russians are 20 percent of ukraine. that's pretty significant. now, to your question, steve, i say is there's, there's a lot to this as i've already said. it is you. busy know the intelligence, how strong is, how much trouble internally is here. i don't know. but what i do know is i think he is in some trouble. i think he's weakened. that's one reason why we need to accelerate now and do more. now, i agree with with it that there's maybe too much quick judgment about how, how slow things are going to be craniums, and it is easier to defend. i mean, with all the time drafts in the mines. and so i'm sorry, so you gotta be smart about that, but they've got it ukrainians,

they've got they have the equipment, they've got to have everything that they got now and more because what i'm saying is this isn't going to last forever. month after month after month, if there's brags on, we've got a presidential election. there are other elections in europe and they don't countries next year, the nato countries will start off by we, we've got some of that in this structure. we've got members of congress who are saying, well, we gotta stop that, we get that given them enough be, you know, so what that will occur the longer this goes and that's, that's my point here. let me ask you another question, ad i worry a little bit if you think about china being an extraordinary challenge, both, you know, opportunities to fix world problems, but also a competitive challenge and a lot of different ways. how in many ways ukraine conflict could potentially be a wonderful trap? both of russia and the west, that basically diminishes resources,

power, strength, while china just rises, do i have it wrong? it's not necessarily. i mean, i think that the one impact that you can see from food, things invasion of ukraine on china is finally when i say you can see which i think we can semis, we can guess is it is making the chinese choosing, paying in particular think twice about the costs of a full blown amphibious assault on the taiwan. i mean that, that the surprising degree of that, of ukrainian defiance and effectiveness, which is just not something, well, what are the costs? i mean, let me just to be pushed back for a minute. the russia has not been pushed out of the international economy. it, there is a growing kind of anti what i mean on another level, if you begin looking at take, take, or, you know, western had off for a moment and ask to go to, to chuck cagle's point. if you look at the other dimensions of global power out there, russia's not alienated all nations of, i mean, it's not as isolated as we would like. it's been something more resilient in this

conflict. then i think we want to believe it to be. and so, compared to, compared to where russia was before the special ministry operation, right. it's in a very bad place. yeah. so it's put in, put in was master of all he's of 8 in february 2022. now his life expectancy, or his job expectancy at least isn't very much in question. bill bags, as the director said something memorable about the pur, goshen fruits, and encounter boots and of course cold provision a traits i wish we could meet on the one thing in russia. it means your dad 3 days later, he's meeting him for tea. this at or is it a try and answer bill by the said something very memorable, which is either the emperor has no, no clothes. yeah. and for being potent or he's taking a very long time to get dressed. brewton is in a very precarious situation because of this for he, because us now loyalty questions across the ministry. he's not in a position to promote competent cyber loyalty. he has to value loyalty it bye for

now. so we can't get rid of defense minister, shall i go? who is failed? because get rid of garage him off the leave of the war effort. who has failed. he has to prize loyalty because he's vulnerable, which means is the ability to prosecute this war. it becomes less, less robust as his own position as his own political power becomes most shaky. so i think the idea that russia hasn't paid for this and put it in particular, it hasn't. and that the elite surround, and we can't get access to that. but most of the wealth haven't paid. i think that's wrong, i'd push back re strongly on that is yeah, the yeah, that the but the point is that it may or exactly the reasons that i'd say that now is the time for the west to accelerate it for exactly the reasons that the head is talking about and i agree with what it said. that makes sense to me for us to push it harder now and do more now, because i've,

i'd say who is in some trouble and i don't think it gets better put. well, let me ask you chuck and i spoke up about a week ago with the senator from your state senator deb fisher, who is on the war path, accusing the administration and the west of saying you're not taking this more seriously. you're not taking american defense seriously. you're not producing the munitions, both are what we need in this conflict and what we need for your not us security. jake sullivan basically said this war is going to be fought in one, not with app 16 and exotic weapon systems. but on 155 millimeter m o shelves, or 152, which are russian made, which they can get because they can, they can use either. and we can't keep ukraine supply now and i look at it as a student of conflict and more. ukraine is not the biggest conflict and the welcoming. imagine how can we have so little m o in the world to make a difference your thoughts as well. i would say that what jake said and

the depth fisher said, both of them are right. but you combine both of their points, that's where it's going to be won or lost on all those things. but the most important thing is the will of ukrainian people, which has been under plate undervalued and under stated in a huge mistake. that proved, made as well as underestimating the strength of the western nato to come to their rescue essentially and help them. so it isn't just one or 2 of those things that jake said that fishers, that it's all of those things together. let me just one quick thing about the airport. airpower is really important because it gives you an additional part of the truck that you, that you bring to russia of air power goods. and it can be just fine and defined by

word howard where you want to use it. but for that that would be critical. that'd be so critical were ukraine. so i, i know i've heard the criticisms that the fisher and others are made mainly republicans administration. i think, as i said earlier, i think generally the president and his team are done pretty good job. but i think we've got to do more. and i've said that all that is, that's the 1st time i said this program. and let me just bring just though to wrap up the show and get your, your final thoughts on, on things like air power. i mean, you, you seem to be convinced by jake sullivan, the president's national security advisor sort of pu, pulling your power pu, pulling up to say, hey, yeah, we can get them and deploy them. but not that important. what's important are basically, you know, what you've got, you know, a reading and writ written, a tech, you know, basically simple systems. and, and, you know, i, i sort of feel like there's an honest debate going on out there. chuck kagle is saying we should be overwhelming the ukrainians with everything we possibly can do

in this moment. and i did not hear that either from tony blinking or jake sullivan . but were you sold by by? uh so uh, jake sullivan about what he said. it just to be clear, i am not a minute vx but, but this sensor is differences of opinion amongst minute checks. but you know, there is a debate and what jake's out of and so i did the compass of the fireside chat with him. as you know, at sad was, of course they need f sixteens, and of course they need long range of tennessee and full, that future security. he said, but in terms of the counter offensive of the situation now what they need is to get through minds. and because both the russians i'm, the ukrainians have good ad defense equipment and patriot missiles, et cetera. this is not at the moment a battle in the skies. this is a battle on the ground. and therefore i, an imperative is to get $15.00 men a may time whatever it is, shells. if i munitions,

it shells its de mining equipment and it is of course, very controversial controversially plus to bumps. that'll be another show. yeah, i'd check this real quick. my opinion is all those things, right? it's all that you need to try to go in. in our last moments. um, what you've advocated for honestly is a different posture than what we're doing now with ukrainians. you're saying overwhelm? we're basically doing just in time and slightly above. i'm just interested. what do you know? what do you feel in your god? do you feel that america is going to shift the way you've? you've recommended to do? i think you're going to shift how does that go over well to, to help provide ukrainians with all of the above, which you have said it's so important right now. yeah, i don't, i don't know. i mean there's, there's strong voices on, on both sides there. and again, i go back to the, the election in 2024. that's the,

the dark heavy cloud that hangs over everything. and, and you guys know that, you know, the politics of this and especially the rest of the chapters and what's at stake in the presidential race and a congressional races next year. so you know, the bite in ministration. and i'm not saying that they're developing policy based on what's best for them political, but that's a reality that i know they're looking at. you look at the congress. i mean, we're paralyzed and this time we can government in this country were politically divided. and so both parties use all issues and this issue is going to be huge. and i know it's a tough issue for president. very tough, but that's why i say, go back and read little bit about harry truman and about dwight eisenhower and some tough decisions they made politically. but, but we're right for the interest long term interest of our country peace and the

world in the world or well, thank you. do you both fantastic discussion, former defense secretary, chuck kagle and the us editor of the financial times. edward loose, thank you so much for being with us today. thank you. so what's the bottom line? ukraine's leaders say they must win, or else they're going to lose their homeland rushes. leaders say there's no way they're ever going to back down the western backers of ukraine. well, they want to see a decisive knockout blow and some even want to see the foundations of putting this kremlin come tumbling down. but there are no signs of any of that happening. what is likely is horrible, maybe even worse than what we've seen thus far. so now we side is testing the other side spirit and resolve the pain that the west views, even though it's nothing like what ukrainians are experiencing is likely to go up. so what will happen to break that result? my gut tells me that rising populism in the u. s. during a presidential election is going to make the ukraine conflict something to run

against and not run for. that's the big challenge. and that's the bottom line, the i revolutionary selves to this easy who fought in a brutal 21 years civil war. and switch on to become so dense 1st vice president news. so good news, global knowledge to which we or identified what happens next is still a mystery. which is the real world, tells the story of john graham and mysterious death on al jazeera since its inception, in 1961, the quaint fund has been supporting people's livelihoods, and over 100 countries, by funding projects in an array of sectors ranging from

infrastructure to health and education. these initiatives ultimately help to eradicate poverty and promote sustainable development. the hello, i'm elizabeth cronum and don't have a detox. stories on the algebra focused on the prime minister has described the killing of 44 people at a political conference as an attack on democracy. so the suicide bombing targeted religious party and by jo near the border with the gun. a saw the potty is aligned with the government, the area was once a strong hold of the pa kasanya fall upon which has condemned the bombing. the good

. yeah, i don't know how and what exactly happened. i just saw a spock into the big bang. i was sitting close to this.