the nationwide protests after the shooting of a teenager in paris, silver world goes to some of the city's most disadvantaged communities and explores complex questions of french identity, paris, a divided city. and i'll just tell them as you estimate face to face as i've got us on to us, one of the world's was humanitarian crises, ask him funds of a west remain frozen. while refreshing of women and rights abuses continue? will the tools spring f guns some coat? this is inside story. the hello. welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. high level discussions between

telephone leaders and us officials have taken place here in bo ha, it's the 1st time, but the 2 sides of met directly since a group we took control in afghanistan, 2 years ago, when nato forces withdrew off the 20 years of conflict. all the business happened behind closed doors and little as being said by either side. apart from 3 statements published online, spokesman for the after on foreign affairs, ministry posted on social media, said, but then negations, discussed confidence, building practical steps towards removing blacklist and lifting sanctions. they also spoke about the freezing of f guns, central bank reserves, economic stability, capturing conflicts and human rights. he added that both the us and the tunnel and government emphasize the continuation of such meetings, understanding at interactions, the us state department for it's part of the issue, the stipends saying that it would be open to a technical dialogue regarding economic stabilization issue. as soon,

it's also open to continuing dialogue on counter narcotics, saying it recognize a significant decrease in the cultivation of puppies foss. the us is expressed deep concern about the humanitarian crisis and the need to continue to support 8 organizations and you and bodies delivering assistance. well, before he goes, well i guess let's recap how we got here. kind of on swept power enough. kennestone in august 2021. the us, it already announced that it was leaving ending almost 20 is a bit of reaction by a native multinational force which invaded off to the $911.00 attacks the tunnel bomb inherited a country struggling with bull. corruption of the groups despite early promises not to return to the oppressive policies and post in 2001 restrictions on women baton with bands on working and goals. secondary education, the united nation says that around 97 percent of our accounts live in policy

28000000 lead a just to survive this year. most humanitarian organizations have suspended that operations of the us still holds about $7000000000.00 of f can central bank assets, which have been frozen for the past 2 years. we did reach out to the town for a spokesman to join our discussion, but no one was available. so let's bring in our guests from kabul, which wines by my oldest arch executive director of the i've come within the skills development center at a board member of the african women's network from oxford to motion on will for of inside afghanistan and executive director of the think tank afghanistan, policy lab, and from belfast. michael, simple visiting research, professor at queens, university, belfast, and full of deputy use special representative to afghanistan, a warm welcome to you all my food. but let's start with you if we can. so we've got these talks between the us on the top,

on the 1st face to face in quite some time. is there anything about that that would give people who continue to suffer in afghanistan? hope the best that comes to circumstances could change. thank you very much. for having me on your show. thanks a lot. you know, this is one of the, uh, it's one of the hopes of, of damage done. we're really praying for something is that it wouldn't be, you know, for the benefit to the benefits of the asking people. but whether this or not, it's not, it's not very clear. it's been quite some time the united states. i know, since they had to talk with the funding. so it was kind of overdue and they told a bunch really were the only country in the world that they would like to have a talk with is the united states for, for, for some of these. and the rest of the world really does not matter. so much we've been talking about, but with us they love to talk. so this couldn't be pretty, you know, interesting and may be good into the benefits of the ton of on for sure. what it's

going to be good for the benefit of the people not getting this done. that's an entirely separate different question. because we really don't know what is actually going on behind the scenes between united states and the part of that is something going on which has very different from what is going on between talking about and the rest of the work and the people of campus. so as long as that is not clear to us, it's a bit hard for us to really know what this is all about. is the going to be there is going to be any games or is not because the ton of them did not even mention that they talked about the woman or the woman's rights or, or, or the human script and much the kind of them did not even mention, and that was not really interesting for them. i told them the amount of time what, what do you mean when you, when you say that there's something entirely different going on between that the

kind of out of the people of i've kind of saw it on the face to which the telephone presents to the world oh yeah, there is, uh there is definitely a p like that because you know, the toilet boned, actually a war, a war from the, from the, from the world. and mainly from, from the, the, what is the big house that they want me to walk from as the united states out for the, for them that is extremely important. and so far they haven't been acknowledged by the, by the ones that they want the war from, you know, to say that, okay, you know, you want this one and they never tried to talk about, or whatever, only thing that the product is always a little as far as they are concerned, to make it to be able to watch the things that they'll do because they are doing it is not that this is, you know, something that there are stories being told about. know the woman i've got a strong did really or anybody back. thanks. so so, so this is, this is what this actually going on that we know the rest of the world. that's not

really no because no matter how much of the world was wanted to talk to them, be your talks to them. the, you know, other countries of the world talks to them and, and all of the who my the teddy and help us that all of the you and the you, nama, all of that for the turn him on. the most important is that they really would like to sit down and talk to me. so that means that there's something going on. then piece to really understand what on earth is that? and they really would like to talk about, alright, next might, might take 2 more. does a us really have any leverage over the telephone of these talks. go to achieve anything? do you think will, will they ultimately lead to persuading the telephone to reverse policies? what of making life so intolerable for people in the country is a very good question. um, um, i agree its, uh well, we're not sure what my, what size you know, that we're not, i'm not certain how this talks will, how often people. but what is

a clear is that the us really doesn't have a lot of leverage here. deliberate. you've had a it has already used around sanctions, so it has already imposed sanctions on a kind of solemn to tell them of leadership and really doesn't have a lot of leverage at the moment on the coal tons of on leadership income. the others are making decisions, but again, let me go back. what is this administration the us, the kinds us have ministrations thinking. what do we know is buying that has been very present by that have been k care about his thinking on that kind of stone and asking people he is clearly said, summed it up, is another country, is people doesn't have, it seems to have a aspiration. it's divided as tribal definitely doesn't really seem that it's a priority for a us and us foreign policy. i know what it has focused. so what, what is, what are the key us interest here? and what of, what is us focusing on 1st,

the whole account of terrorism. it has focused on counterterrorism and trying to limit international terrorism operation, insight f, one a, some that threatens his interest around around. well, the 2nd is focus has been around the recreation of the remaining atkins who have worked with with the us, especially in light of the upcoming presidential election. and the fact that the republicans are trying to portray by the end of ministrations effort towards the recreation in august 2021 as messy and incompetent. and i guess the most important point here is the hostages. that the calling on the us talk to the colleague on uh, having captivity. we know that the fosters diplomacy is a, is a significant factor in washington dc. we know they didn't take historically and has taken a lot of attention and lot of buttons with the highest level from administration

and that has chipped uh the perception of confidence of an administration. so i think the timing around that kind of talk to me sounds very much around the fact uh those factors that i mentioned in particular the hosted diplomacy and, and focusing on the technical issues and economics w i. zation essentially means to me to being kind of upset the top of them is, is the thought about others, but us to contribute to the right people. and the thought about the how, right, okay. you know, clearly they're not a i mean the there seems to be this perception that by engaging with pragmatist i get no mother is pragmatist. i don't believe there is such a thing as mother intolerable. i think they are all, it's a fundamental, this group on a clear mission to, to fund them into the transform, ask in society and quality and beyond that cornerstone. but the, the pragmatists,

the people i can look back in others and comp of the us happy and engaging with them for, for the past 4 years of doing the hot dogs and the last 2 years. none of those conversations back channel contacts have produced result, canada, and i'm talking to the right people. i'm letting me mention that the talking about are we have that the us does not consent of calling us on payable a, keep by other things. and then they understand that. and i think they're trying also to gain maximum leverage from what they have the hostages. that it keeps the hosted that the entire off can population as they have kept hostage. and the slowing down the recreation process. and more importantly, putting half of the population, essentially in, in, in prison and pursuing agenda appetite, policy and a phone. so okay, let's bring it in, michael. michael, what did you make of the choices is now the right time to be talking to the top

down to the extent just the us since. yeah. and it's a, it's regarding the talking about is it perhaps talking more with its own interest in buying than those of the outcome people? well, i think the, the us is quite a pair of explicit policies and just to talk about and take over home, being prepared to engage in dialogue with the top of onto achieve us interests. and we've got really has been constant over the past 2 years. if there have been periods when there would be gaps and thought they here, um, oh not is um, if there have been gaps in that area, it has been because the telephone has been gauged and auctions, which would be uh, just so i have oh, okay. so difficult for international access to stomach that has become politically impossible for the us to continue the engagement. so they go through pauses. obviously, if you know when to talk about of have bond girls, secondary education,

bond women working for 8 agencies. oh, feel that was going to be a gap in the us as the us is, returns to the table. but i think that to t movie is opposite and p right, with extremely limited objectives there and like, you know, getting people out and talking about jails. i think that the, the hollow bonds how, how become past monsters at exploiting vehicle process t around talks like this to pretend that they are able to achieve much more than it's even on the table. so for example, the telephone statement saying that they, if you raise the issues of your own blacklists and sanctions, well maybe they've mentioned, but it's the opposite of the inconceivable that they can make progress on with the current state of what your office hours, what the telephone are doing that, they that we know that for the past 2 years, the telephone have hoped to win international recognition. well,

it's not just as the, you know, the us who are looking at how to talk because the, the top to bottom, we have the broad or international community with some fear now helped by us, special coordinator helped me in addressing this and frankly into national recognition is just not on the agenda now. the telephone are just so, so far away from the shooting that because they consistently have said, yeah, we'll talk, i will never compromise. michael, it is. is the kind of on playing with the, the us on the other. why the international community out the, are they, are they some see it when they sit down for tools to think of here's some of the feedback we got from i talked about and to go through a tours in terms of their lessons learned in dealing with the us on the guns in the, in negotiations was our approach to go see asians. we start to monitor, we wait for the other side to conceit about their approach to pull that sincere like as far as they're concerned, this work so far. but i think that they're your best. they will be able to have a limited to transactional relationship to know progress on big issues like oh,

international recognition or removing sanctions or it's our essentially bringing, bringing off on this don onto the telephone box into the international folds. now remember, one thing which neither site is mentioned of this, because frankly, i mean that's all about how more or less rule it out is you know, the issue over return to an increase of political system of the accountable government inside off his time. now, successive un security resident security council resolutions of cold for that broadly, people seem to think if you want an end to conflict enough on this time, you're going to have to have a return to an increase of political system. the telephone basically over having, you know, going through the door talks to get the us forces out of the country, promising that they would move towards out for the past 2 years, have essentially ruled it out for us most of the claim. because the, and we have that one or 2 type jigs and those backs and you're in a, in a government of course project tell about those big time about in our government.

we have an inclusive administration forgetting about women and essentially not having any representative members. also the she and the ethnic communities and i'll find this stuff out there to help them put this on the agenda. like we talked about the terrible humanitarian situation in afghanistan. a sanctions making things worse for the people of afghanistan use, do, talked about the terrible toll that that's been taken on on women and girls that are reports of a dramatic increase in the rates of suicide among african women and, and goes exact numbers are difficult to come by a post because the band suppresses reporting of, of such depths. but to what extent are a western sanctions making the stress, the women and girls, women and girls in particular, a suffering even worse is morally now the right time to start talking about the lifting of sanctions and providing for the economic 8 to afghanistan. well, you know what, the sanctions,

taylor and the effects the assumptions of the people understanding especially on the woman as an activity. you know? unbelievable. and the reason is that because, you know, the woman situation in afghanistan right now can become so part of this house that they are in all of the religion and everything else is completely out of the picture. nothing to do anything. the women are being sold used as a, as a, as a, as a political weapon. so they are, they are your playing with your playing any time when there is a sanction or something that the toner above don't like one of the front of taking it out of the woman. oh yes. and in this way, the lose as a really, the, the, the, you got the people, the top down is found that women to have scanners started the poor country and be in detroit the to, they are the ones that they are actually the most in a, whether the, the, the, the have posted of the word continues. it doesn't continue. it depends on how much it was really would like to have coach gattis on. now, you know,

we can look at all of the old dia, maybe apple. i fucked him. us will die because so far, the only thing that can god, we don't have enough kind of stuff. we don't have a whole lot co, you know, a food, a commodities in the country. we have food, we have enough. the only thing is that people don't have any money to buy it and that, that, that's, that's difficult. but at that, i'm sure there's going to be a time when we won't have that item. then we're done. okay? so this whole thing is becoming extremely political. and now you also mentioned something about these people are being, be, you know, the hostages. what last digits was they can pull off that, you know, why is, why is all of this coming up? this is what i'm saying. that there's so much going on that the people don't have gums from a weight of it. it's just that the work was probably the you wishes aware of. and maybe maybe the, you know, the great but, and that's about it. not everybody else knows. so what is this whole situation

which hostage, who is the house and, and, and, and how many are in, in, in the, how come this became so important after 2 years, whether or not this going on. so these are the things that the people have dennis bundle asked, would it be not aware? okay, so that's why we do believe that the up to 2 levels of, of light is going go once i just want to kind of for light and the other side, there's another kind of the other kind of, what do i is between the point of um, and the in the us government, them don't doing whatever it is. but the other side is the line between us talking about and the people the absolutely have. know, people will come back to you just about, but i just wanna get, i wanna get michael spinning on the, on, on what the boo boo was saying that yes, eh, eh, it, to me, it's very interesting though. don't say you have, i do, but has brought up again the issue all of a paucity, i'd like to touch on 2 of these issues. first one, the on the issue of continuation of assistance. i think it's remarkable,

given the sheer how we have given that the telephone company defied the international community. i'm gonna try to define the culture we government to, to insist on taking power by force rather than proceeding with a political agreement which was available to them in culture given that the very difficult circumstances in which they came to power. i think it is remarkable that she monitoring the assistance provided by the international community has continued up to the level that has come to play. the upcoming economy is around between $12.00 and $15000000000.00 per year to kindly $3000000000.00 are being provided to, to a front us down an international she monitoring assistance still, despite the bob blot, they, despite all the difficult relations between the telephone and the rest of the world between a quarter on the 5th of constance, national income comes from international actually monitoring assistance. currently

that is, out of jeopardy, not because of function stage of international actors and find ways around the functions to allow the continuation of up to monitoring assistance. tell the upcoming people not to help the to talk about administration, but the, the telephone administration has consistently being interfering in the process of delivering assistance which i'm sure the team my boobies well aware of because she's in the very difficult business of trying to, to wrong and use in the current circumstances are basically trying to takeover organizations to insist that on the telephone, approved registered and, and controlled organizations are able to work in the are itself contracting. and they, the success of the levels of interference. are we to jeopardize in the continuation of the assistance process, the very act of binding women from working in our assistance organizations and even into un with something which jeopardize to the delivery if you monitor and assistance. so i would say actually it's whether they tell about or prepared to

show some respect for international loans in dealing with their own people. with a kind of aid agencies will determine whether it is possible to continue to the written assistance. all the, all the issue of the secret diplomacy on hosted you'll have a lot of that time number which is raise this because i'm up to the source and that they asked on population. scroll to the site of this, but i think we must make a clear distinction between the, the role of the, the western countries who are trying to recover their citizens who are being held hostage by the top of the role of the tal about the, you know, as team were mentioned earlier on in the us in the, in the u. k. and n b u, the government's how the obligation to their own citizens on when citizens are held hostage abroad. and your government just basically have to do everything they come to secure the release and bring them home. the telephone has held

a series of people who have been out for your aid, aid workers, private citizens, all sorts of people, while shopping off on this done some people i would you ever strongly advise them not to be an offer on this? the got extremely good business to be there, but it's all about seeing fit to hold them. there is a, there's either no due process or fiction of due process on the top of it is quite explicitly trying to extricate concessions from, from those governments. i this is hostage diplomacy f, it's paula bomb, or not the only administration around the world which oh, which is engaged in this, but i would say no, no responsible government ever ever does it. it's got nothing to do with the outcome people whatsoever. it is a ton of on trying to to find leverage. i'm both international players and i extract things like guarantees of non cooperation with vision or they have kind of assistance a team or doesn't, has a lot for you that to, to come back on if,

if you wish to. and i also what are the, where you stand on, on the issue of sanctions a they are they useful a they should is now the time to lift the so essentially deductible. um and uh it does impact on many people. uh, historically, sanctions have not necessarily been the most useful tools. but having said that, i let me cool what michael said that um that the suffering of guns is not the result of simply the sanctions. but the policy is that the top or bottom episode over the last 2 years, regression and good cavity of the policies towards a ask and women. and some of all that some of the policies that they have taken. it has made it impossible for international community, including us not to show to his domestic constituency that is taking

a function and functions often to you this steps to, to take. having said that, again, it's important to note that the, the us solution has produced a number exemptions and those of those are amount around a humanitarian at a delivery. so, and as you maintain a delivery isn't consumed from, from including and yours and other organizations that are operating up on an exempt from those. so the assumption, and that is why the, the kind of international and responses is working in, in f on a. so let me echoed that it's important that we eliminate alleviate the suffering of asking people. and i do believe that the international aid must continue in the front of some sort of can people and must be a bit of a, given a light of the kind quite says that 2 thirds of can population are in need of

humanitarian assistance. but having said that, which would not continue with the policy of appeasement, it hasn't would appease them towards the top on 7 very is truth. and this month, and when it comes to me goes jason, as mike law pointed out, and finally the suffering of asking women in particular is the result of the fact that this is a fundamental, this organization. it's, it's a movement that is built on fundamental mission to can clearly transform adkins society and politics, enough gone to son and beyond. and they were on a god given mission to transform that society. look at the latest you and report that was prepared for him. a security council, it clearly highlights the worsening of, of the, the, the, the, the presence of a presence and expansion of the various international tests organizations, including have quite enough one song. and this entity is affecting ditching bump. what do i spend? it's just

a matter of time before the telephone produces another 911 in different parts of the world and they are the print in our students. so we're going to take a look at 16 pockets on expanding, rapidly buckled out of a feeling. we were going to be giving that the, the last word here, but in the end, the few minutes remaining. but picking up from what my, what team, all of us was saying that's about the worst thing. humanitarian crisis in afghanistan, the, the, the, the rights of women and goals ignored the we've been continuing to suffer refreshing. and that, of course, watson's already extreme, the, or the extreme poverty. and i've got to start with a dire economic situation in the country because 50 percent of the population con, con, add anything economically. what should the us of the international community be doing right now other than what appears to be ringing the hands of afghanistan and the telephone? what's the solution? yeah,

you're absolutely right. that's all i've really actually seen is when getting their hands. and i'm really, i'm really a type of, you know, uh, like, like, like a decisions were made. the decisions would take him, he will put them to action. and the results of that is one disaster after another, after another up during that, sorry to interrupt you. but we are out of time. i really appreciate if you will, being on the program today. my boobs slash team will shut down. and michael, simple. um. as always, thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website. i'll just 0, don't com for further discussion and join us with our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash 8 inside story out. of course, you can join the conversation on twitter, handle the inside story from the adrian sitting on the scene here. and so let's see again, bye for now the the,

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