a latin america is a region of wonder i'm joy tragedy, and yes of violet. but it doesn't matter where you are. you'll have to be able to relate to the human condition. the i've been covering all of latin america for most of my career, but no country is a like, and it's my job defense life on how and why age and the south american nations meeting presented a common policy on the and i'm just waiting for the deep positions on exploration and deforestation, as well as conflicting domestic interest. so that when they some of the chief, this is inside story, the

other. welcome to the program. i'm adrian sent again. it's been 14 years since the last summit of amazon rain forest nations. a time during which the impact of climate change has listened well beyond what might have been imagined back then. floods wild fires and extreme temperatures have destroyed lives and communities worldwide. meanwhile, countries are missing international targets to reduce emissions as the climate crisis. wesson's leaders, basic and brazil all agree on the to acts. the big divisions remain on wants to be done. we'll talk to, i guess, shortly around just here as life with america editor who's in belgium without some it's being held. but 1st, a closer look at the amazon rain forest and it's connection with the nations taking pods. the area is bossed around twice the size of india. it extends it to 8 south american countries, including brazil, bolivia, columbia equitable ground,

the through and venezuela. it is a vital part of the global ecosystem, helping to regulate everything from carbon emissions to water cycles, bought it. sustainability is at risk of to decades of reckless exploitation. let's speak for the last of america editor at lucy, a newman, who's in the brazilian city advantage, known as the gateway to the amazon to see it, great to see. what does the summit aim to achieve? well, we had to have the aims. of course, our very grand deals, whether or not they can even do a tiny amount to make it make, make any inroads is yet to be seen. because this is going to be the 4th presidential summit of amazon in countries. and then bins is not just brazil, it's all the countries that have amazon rain forest and they will be joined also my other countries on the 2nd day of the summit, the 2 condos. and of course indonesia, which also have very, very large reinforce that need protecting. what they are trying to do is revert

climate change, reverse degradation, deforestation increase the rights of indigenous people, and others who live in the amazon region here in brazil, for example, there are 11000000 people who live in the amazon horn going hungry. they're, they're impoverished. they have no sustainable way of, of making a living, or it certainly not a decent way of making a living. there's also slavery or slave work in this region, very little presence of the state. the indigenous populations don't have access to health care to education. there, there is a whole list of demands and needs by civil society, which will be presenting the heads of state with a list or a guidelines if you like, and demands for what they should be considering and what they should take action on whether they will or not is the big question, of course, some of these nations as well. i've got the domestic issues of the dealing with at the moment that the hopping focused on, on climate issues of the i mean how you say whether they will not. but how

difficult is it going to be for them to reach consensus when there are some areas in which they will reach consensus? for example, the transfer of science and technology between countries like brazil, which are more developed to others that are less developed. that should be a no brainer. it should be easy. but the big, big elephant in the room here is oil exploration and exploitation. in the amazon region, i'm right at the to say at the mouth of the amazon river, just still on the other side of that river is the rain forest. this is the area one of the areas that oil companies want to exploit. and they argue, and this has this, this is true also in countries like ecuador and many others in the region who says that there's order to have development in their country. they need to find ways of extracting oil here, environmental. this will tell you that that's absurd, not only because it's because it contaminates rivers and soil, but also because they say where the humanity is living in it. and at a time when we should be winning ourselves completely from oil, i just spoke

a short while ago to the coordinator of climate observatory. and he said something that surprised me a lot. he said, the reason why there's so much resistance is that oil companies and countries that have oil once it gets squeeze the last dollar, if you like, out of those resources before it becomes completely impossible to use boil anymore . the forward it is, becomes redundant with a substitute with the other sources of clean energy. so, you know, brazil's president says he wants 0 deforestation, 0 contamination, but it's, it's difficult for him to go ahead with that. he won't have the support of many people is his country. and very briefly, let's see what role are indigenous people that if any playing of this summit, the vision is people are very present at the summit. they've brought their leaders from all over the amazon region and not just in brazil, but other parts of the, of south america. they are insisting on their rights territorial rights rights to

their culture, to be preserved and respected and promoted health education. but particularly this very sensitive part uh, area of territorial rights. it's not just a matter of living in areas that are supposed to be reserved, but they need those areas to be protected from poachers and from economic interests that will, that one to encroach on them. all. that's what america editor, let's see. and human reporting from the gateway to the amazon. let's say a many thanks indeed. why, let's bring it, i'll guess to all joining us from brazil, from pelham without somebody is being held kind of us pettis, professor of tropical conservation ecology at the university of east anglia. from south palo, we have john russia, a freelance journalist, right. so she's all said several books on brazil, including murder in the rain forest, and also in belgium, is from a verse lead journalist and research coordinator at amazon on the well, the collaborative investigation into the presence of criminal activities at the groups in the region. welcome to old. let's start with you

a contest president let the silver said that he's got high hopes for this summit. he said that for the 1st time, we're going to have a common policy for the amazon for presentation security on board is. but how difficult it, is it going to be to reach consensus with all these nations taking part to what extent, hulu, that have to water down his expectations? well yeah, this is fairly unprecedented because the, the heads of states from all the countries, all 9 members are going to be here. i and brazil. this is the way of policy 7, the politics of force conservation. but also in terms of the, the force of the agent. um, so here i think it's going to be a very heterogeneous speaking. um, and it's gonna be very hard to reach a complete consensus. but it's been on the

gallery uh previous to the meeting of the heads of states. and the idea is that they are going to propose a so called, um, uh amazon prime is um, how is that that's gonna be done if anybody get um. but yeah, i think, you know, i'm here in the lane with steve your money to secure a uh, to waiting for a whole that have to stay in the main amazon. you've been the main dropping for centuries, including the, the big block protocol, the base and indonesia. chad, what's your feeling goal? this is president telling me that the silver going to have to water down his expectations on this. well, it's amazing. has several come to this with very different situations in terms of what that she's doing in the amazon for us. so the last of all expiration going on already. so let me say good it sort of finding the middle way because he has to do

that politically. all the time, i think in the end there will be a declaration that of stays important. things like the importance of saving these, 80 percent of them as in forest, but will also not speed, not take a firm stands against all expiration cause in itself. and this is moved by the state of the company to drill for oil in the mouth of amazon, luna. and the phase is that. so he has to take over all the middle stand on the list. he has to maybe started a bit, but it seems to me that the important thing of this meeting is exactly the. all of them come to is coming together to take a stand and mom degrades of boys and all the kind of discussions, what's going on. the diverse cops and international meetings, and all that was significant is the fact that just before the, the official sides,

the indigenous peoples move of the amazon came together in the la, almost a 1000 of them. and what they said that amazing was that we want a voice in what's happening we once we had because without us, there is no future for the awesome. so the, and this just bear with me at a, talking to the allison come to lead to saying we want to big a voice at your table and the amazon president. so thing to the world, we want to pick a voice in climate discussions. okay. i want to come back to this issue of indigenous peoples and, and what role they should be playing at this summit in the future. a conservation of, of the amazon region. but the gen, to ecuador and peru currently dealing with around domestic issues which, which could distract them, couldn't get from environmental concern concerns. i'm, it is protecting the amazon a priority for all of these nations right now. not necessarily. um,

i mean, it has decided to make it one of his priorities, but he also has a whole load of other problems to deal with. but at least he's committed himself to 0 for his clearing 0 deforestation. by 2030 is not easy because he has a sort of brewing from the coalition government, which includes parties which don't suit the same way which believe in the mining and farming in the amazon and after world he's taken over of the full years of very destructive pull this is in the amazon from the previous present. so both a lot who actively encourage illegal mining is he who farming land grabbing and so on. so he has to play really is kind of a leadership role. he wants this leadership role for bill because they love to is the biggest, is a come to the biggest share of amazon. but to none of these companies, is it easy to take it sort of 100 percent stand in favor of them is that they have to deal with their internal issues as well. they have to deal with climate denies

within their own countries will be great believe in oil drilling and all it's ration been this way and also depends on all those myself. sure. so as soon as the course of juggling all these different interest coming out with a declaration of damage, state certain things, and one things i think it will say is, is to criticize that protectionism. if you are being come to this and also say with the money with all the money, which is promised. $100000000000.00 for 2 developing countries for protecting the climate. a brand. as jennifer saying, lewis pledge to eliminate illegal deforestation by 2030 as high as president petro, of columbia. others, is that target achievable on a given the various criminal groups that are expanding their activities right across the region? thanks sort of the question. i think we shouldn't blind stare ourselves on the number of the forward station because to be frank 0 to deforestation, but to 1000 to 30 sounds good. but as far, you know,

realistically what we observed in the amazon when we started investigating in the field, is that 70 percent of the m, as the municipalities. and the 6 main countries that showed the amazon is under criminal control. so this actually means that most of our groups and gangs are deciding who can enter, who can leave what needs to pay texas to criminal networks and extortion phase. and which are the main common these donating daily life. and also damaging the amazon. what we see is that their respective governments are not able to enter these areas due to security concerns. so of course there is governance, but it's criminal governance. so i think the governments and they speak about before the station a mitigating environmental damages. they need to regain the confidence of populations they've a band and soon as many decades, or maybe even they've had a presence in the amazon and, and they should tackle criminal networks because they are running the show. and the revenues of listed economies often times are larger than the budgets of governments

to combat them. so perhaps you would argue that security must be high on the agenda at this, this summit. what, what can be done to stop these criminal gangs? so it's very important that all the presidents come together for the 1st starter and, but the security must be on the agenda because we see the rising homicide rates at throughout the whole amazon. we see a norm as the number of mess occurs in rural colombia in the amazon. and we know that these organized crime networks are labeled parts to supply a single license to collapse, break across the borders into sort of criminal diplomacy. despite linguist, stick and cultural barriers and of which the governments should be jealous because they haven't managed yet to cooperate fully in the m as in the oldest criminal networks. so we meet better communication, john solutions, but of course we don't only need to apply to stick, but we also need to help local populations and the fellow economic liberty on

sustainable future plants and devin alternative besides the list of the company. because often so often times we see that these locals, if know all of our economic opportunities tend to participate in legal coal mining . and this is comp for farming. like go pick her up today many greeting for a copay of other economies that destroyed the amazon. so lastly, and if you are going to have at the end of the m, as in a need to chose the be feeding your children are conserving the 1st, you always will up for feeding your children. first, call us just how close to the tipping point is the amazon rain forest. how long before the damage that's being done to it becomes irreversible as well. i know we're already up to 20 percent of in brazil and 50 except for the pen. amazon. all nice entries on the estimates range from uh, let's say you get another 20 percent of the for a station and the loan,

which is about 2 uh, 3 pits the whole, the whole region. we could already be. um, you know, we weigh pasta the, the shipping points um you know, of course, forest around the world account for 84 percent of all the carbon stored in over traditionally for assistance in the amazon alone is about 90 metric tops. and that's about 15 years worth of, of, of, of, of greenhouse gas emissions. so it's absolutely imperative that we come to a 100 premium that much of the agreement basically depends on indigenous peoples and local communities which control. so something like 45 percent of the precision that wasn't alone. um, indigenous territories. um, you know, they sure a huge role in fort conservation because there's, there's relatively little workstation inside. most of the superstition is,

is outside those areas. so at the moment, they're not actually getting them paid for this, so they are sort of awesome yours. and you can see in this conference here, that the low of them in, of, for, you know, for this patient at the table is like, is increasing. and you know, we're seen lots of lots of indians. what are, what are the chances, concepts of, of this summit, recognizing that enforcing gland rights for addiction is people to well, this has been going on for a while. let me not go for a single loss of 5 years. we've had a, you know, a huge slow down in the demonstration and sanctioning of new indigenous territories. but this is with a new look out for me, this coming back again. the problem is that over the last 30 years, we've opened the floodgates of farmers uh,

from elsewhere in brazil. and it is now very difficult to stuff that frontier a long and grabbing of log in farming generation. and now a goldmine. and the, fortunately capacity of the british government is still very, very small, very, very low. so i think, you know, i think brazil does need of international ways. and this coming now with the, with a into, uh, amazon. yeah. but it's a, it's a tough fence because, you know, if you're going to a control 5000000 square kilometers with only about 30 or 35 people, you know, that you, you know, you're off against a huge, baffled trying to all of the regions. governments recognize just how important the role indigenous people play in the conservation of the right and for as president little of the silver created. brazil is 1st ministry of indigenous peoples this year. but what about the other nations?

well, i think it's very different situation in the i'm doing. i'm was in come to is where this is people for a long time being much more organized than they were in brazil was in way organizations really just because the last few years i think connect come to the equipped to federal believe here. and this has people a hospital organized, have a much more important political voice already. so it's a different situation even so indigenous peoples who lives a, she in the ellison far as i have been pushed of say alarms. and i've seen the rivers and hairs have been polluted by all the company is experiencing and drilling for oil. so the, the, during the front line as to this and as far as connectivity, cisco is the previous speaker said, this is, this is an activity which has flourished in the last is in brazil. and in the us is equal criminal gains often connected to criminal gangs. in the south and

some pollen re you have taken over because the state, the government, that the simply not being that. and i think this is one of the most vital things that the bassoon government, something else to do now is to put the have the state active in these areas, much more enforcement in a way. that's where the become, i mean, there was being a big drive to clear out illegal minus in the underlying me or if it sounds in the north and yeah, i'm a so i'm just a few days ago. the biggest line grab in brazil has been clearing for us and pushing in capital farming was that she rested and all his properties are come to schedule. so the middle government is beginning to move for the lasers bots this year. as the previous speaker said, this was a huge area to police between force to control. and of course, the other side is providing jobs for people. if they come work and illegal lining

and legal land clearing, what are they going to do? where is the jobs? so that frame pauses assigned is the cause, shown that all if you leave the forest standing, the rod your, the rest of the economy a by a economy based on the store as using is put us using essences using pharmaceutical, developing pharmaceutical products. but it is a huge area and list of things that has to be done again, you need money for it. as you say, the stock did. there was a long way to go. as you say it, it's such a vast area. it is almost impossible to police. i mean, to do it properly. you're going to need the consensus of all the amish foundations on to you. you log in to the consensus and you'll see you're going to meet with him to 0 because the bassoon amazon is divided up among different states. this is sometimes it's very conservative governments who are actively support for legal mining. i'm caring for us. you have to deal with all these local differences as

well because in many areas it's the local municipal government, which is the start for full education of health and so on. so it's a very complex situation alone need. i mean, at least level of expense in negotiation, but it's not going to be easy. brown, to what extent is, is outside funding an important pay. uh, the international community gets involved and we've got to us climate and boy, john kerry and francis president mccord are both in attendance at the summit of denise rich nation is needed to be need to be persuaded to provide funds to protect the m, as in how much are we talking about here? and i think rich nations already are coming from somebody in parts of protecting the m, as in which is the burns largest carbon sink. and therefore it's pretty so to preserve the amazon at the mitigate the climate change. but we also know that the amazon was

approaching it to people and in which it will become an active matter, and therefore, the amazon can also become one of the worst. i mean is. so it is a global importance to protect the innocent and let me know that the little funds and potentially could be available because you know, somebody m as in countries kind of do it as by themselves. but i think as far as the end of the countries need to show that they are serious, if you have a concrete agenda and then they also have the technical capacity. for example, i was just listening to them and the other guests and talking about the operations by law in government. no, mind me, 3rd tree pushing out the legal miners. what is the legal miners are being pushed across the border toriana facility now the venezuela. so we have these migrating and gangs and elizabeth activities, and i thought it was very important, but was also mentioned that one of the main land gravitas in brazil was the rest. because oftentimes, law enforcement goes of to the low, low hanging fruits and the low cost building the chain so or manage the kettle or

mining, but they never a law 1st and never goes after the finances of deforestation. but need more investors get different technical capacity. but it's also very important, and this is roberta, global community comes into play and, and to investigate supply chains. because oftentimes the commodities that come from the amazon, from the far as that areas, be careful of sorry being needs laughter and minerals, hydrocarbons. they go to international markets and if there's no trace of the benefits and there's always stuff the response. so we need the international community, all the countries in europe, north america, but also an age of the step, all clean up their supply chains and funds efforts to protect these amazon. from you say we're close to the tipping point here. how long are we got? i'm with so much to be done, or is there enough time to do as things go? no, this is why we need a concrete response. if you need a very clear agenda, i just m as in summits and then the then the possibility of an m, as in parliament,

sounds very good, sports and oriented to read it really know what it's about. and so we need concrete measures and, and political announcements like 0 deforestation by to sort of the size and authority. we know that most presidents won't be around them in politics. it's easy to say, but they won't be responsible for it. so we need actions are being turned into legislation and better cooperation and more money on the table for sustainable economies and region low law enforcement actions responds civilizing international buyers cleaning up the supply chain, better price the better. i think if there's a clear agenda and proposals of a bunch of them in the next few days, hopefully the international community can do that behind this. a john with petro and lula in in office. and then as well as president bureau back back up the summit of to not attending any regional meetings in, in recent years. is that, is that cost for optimism or are you optimistic with this?

somebody can achieve something concrete? well, i think got, i'm optimistic. does that make sense? just the fact that having it isn't both in just the fact that before the out to somebody do have this meeting of maybe a 1000. this is people voicing their demos. i think that's close optimism to reading over say within the, within the whole framework you might want to really was kind of a team. but as i say just the fact that came together, that the recognizing the problems and the voice and the moms and wanted to have a, a more active to position within the world climate discussions. i think that is a cause for optimism. there's a lot of have work involved, doesn't look, negotiation and diplomacy involved, but they've taken this step. i think that's important. must be right. months call us to you share john's optimism? no, absolutely. i mean this is an unprecedented meeting. and this is where we need to

start the there, there's been producing very little communication between brazil and all the other amazonian countries. and i think that, you know, the amazon contribution the treaty has to be very powerless to do anything. i think this is this, the breath of fresh air that are these challenges ahead. but i think this is a big start. but time is of the essence in times of the essence of because, um, you know, even reducing or the terry illegal deforestation by 2030 is a huge target. and then also there is the definition of what is legal and what is the legal because what can be legal now going to be somebody come actually legal, an entry over 5 years down the line depends on the on, on for his policy, particularly brazil. so yes, absolutely urgent that we that we control of workstation and

fire in the amazon. and i think this meeting is a big step for. thank you so much. all the people taking posit today's inside story, call us pat us generalship and bram able us as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again. but any time by going to the website, which is at elder 0, don't com for further discussion, join us at our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash age a inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter. handle that a j inside story for me, adrian, instead of going on the scene here at the hospital city again, i filled out the the

people are very well aware of the wealth potential of the country. but as they've seen with a huge mining profits generated in the east of dc, nothing ever filters down to the pool. the rain forest provide for the 10s of thousands of small communities who live that from a roof over their heads to feed for the pump. box. infrastructure is minimal. schools and hospitals, if any, a barely equipped electricity, not the question, perhaps oil can change things to the bank to get a very real sense of a tech fee here just by driving this truck driven these little community because we keep reading the staterooms being taught to be on, let's gratian project a, quite a lot of people, the adults. so i'm running out shopping, get out at a, we don't want you. we want to keep all floors leave off for us to learn the

visceral connections of the land and a total lack of faith and the government meets with these communities at least, or, and exploration isn't on stone. so we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world to what we've been using kind of files that matter to you, the hello, i'm kimberly how can and to have the hear the top stories on algae 0 news years, military spokesman has announced the new prime minister lea let me zane has served as the economy and finance minister for 8 years from 2002. meantime, the west african block echo was says it will hold a summit to discuss the crisis in the chair on thursday. well, the top us state department officials in this year and says she's health,

frank and difficult talks with senior qu leaders, but acting deputy secretary state victoria newland says she has not been allowed to meet.