here from some of history's blogs, notable women on unconventional antics stores in the office. i am 40 that got an account. my name is revolution of every one in china, new my state. you've heard all of them power it's time you have from these and 6 of hindsight is out now. subscribe wherever you listen to comcast, a h and the south american nations waited for sales, affords a common policy on the weight of a deep divisions on oil exploration and deforestation, as well as conflicting domestic interests. so what, when they some of the chief, this is inside story, the other welcome to the program. i'm adrian said again, it's been 14 years since the last somebody to m as in rain forest nations. a time

during which the impact of climate change has listened. well beyond what might have been imagined back then, floods wild fires and extreme temperatures have destroyed lives and communities worldwide. meanwhile, countries are missing international targets to reduce emissions as the climate crisis, wesson's leaders meeting and brazil all agree on the to acts. the big divisions remain on wants to be done. we'll talk to, i guess shortly, around to 0 is less than america editor who's in belgium without some it's being held. but 1st, a closer look at the amazon rain forest and it's connection with the nations taking pods. the area is bossed around twice the size of india that extends into 8 south american countries including brazil, bolivia, columbia equitable guy on a through and venezuela. it is a vital part of the global eco system, helping to regulate everything from compet emissions to water cycles, but it's sustainability is at risk of the decades of reckless exploitation. let's

speak for the last of america editor lucy, a newman, who's in the brazilian city advantage, known as the gateway to the m. as in lucy, a great to see you. what does the summit aim to achieve? well, we had to. the aims of course, are very grand deals, whether or not they can even do a tiny amount to make a move and make any inroads. is you have to be seen because this is going to be the 4th presidential summit of amazon in countries. and then bins is not just brazil. it's all of the countries that have amazon rain forest and they will be joined also my other countries on the 2nd day of the summit, the 2 condos. and of course indonesia, which also have very, very large reinforce that need protecting what they are trying to do. is revert climate change, reverse degradation, deforestation increase the rights of indigenous people and others who live in the amazon region here in brazil, for example,

there are 11000000 people who live in the amazon horn going hungry. they're, they're impoverished. they have no sustainable way of, of making a living, or it certainly not a decent way of making a living. there's also slavery or slave work in this region, very little presence of the state. the indigenous populations don't have access to health care to education. there, there is a whole list of demands and needs by civil society, which will be presenting the heads of state with a list or a guidelines if you like, and demands for what they should be considering and what they should take action on whether they will or not is the big question, of course, some of these nations as well. i've got the domestic issues of the dealing with at the moment that the hopping focused on, on climate issues. although, i mean how you say whether they will not. but how difficult is it going to be for them to reach consensus when there are some areas in which they will reach consensus? for example, the transfer of science and technology between countries like brazil,

which are more developed to others that are less developed. that should be a no brainer. it should be easy. but the big, big elephant in the room here is oil exploration and exploitation. in the amazon region, i'm right at the to say at the mouth of the amazon river. still, on the other side of that river is the rain forest. this is the area, one of the areas that oil companies want to exploit, and they argue, and this has this, this is true also in countries like ecuador and many others in the region. who says that there's order to have development in their country. they need to find ways of extracting oil here, environmental. this will tell you that that's absurd, not only because it's because it contaminates rivers and soil, but also because they say with the humanity is living in it. and at a time when we should be weaning ourselves completely from oil, i just spoke a short while ago to the coordinator of climate observatory. and he said something that surprised me a lot. he said, the reason why there's so much resistance is the oil companies and countries that

have oil once it gets squeeze the last dollar, if you like, out of those resources before it becomes completely impossible to use oil anymore. the forward it is, becomes redundant with a substitute with the other sources of clean energy. so uh, uber zillow's, president says he wants 0 deforestation, 0 contamination, but it's, it's difficult for him to go ahead with that. he won't have the support of many people in his country and very briefly see what role are indigenous peoples or if any playing of this summit. the vision is people are very present at the summit. they've brought their leaders from all over the amazon region and not just in brazil, but other parts of the, of south america. they are insisting on their rights territorial rights rights to their culture, to be preserved and respected and promoted health education. but particularly this very sensitive part area of territorial rights. it's not just

a matter of living in areas that are supposed to be reserved, but they need those areas to be protected from poachers and from economic interests that will, that one to encroach on them. all. that's what america editor, lucy and human reporting from the gateway to the amazon, the same at a sanction date. the, the white, let's bring it, i'll guess to all joining us from brazil, from pelham, where that somebody is being held. kind of us pettis, professor of tropical conservation ecology at the university of east anglia, from sao paulo. we have general show a freelance journalist, right. so she's offered several books on brazil, including motor in the rain forest, and also in belgium, is from a verse lead journalist and research coordinator at amazon on the well, the collaborative investigation into the presence of criminal activities on groups in the region. welcome to old. let's start with you a call us president let the silver said that he's got high hopes for this summit. he said that for the 1st time, we're going to have a common policy for the amazon for preservation security on board is. but how

difficult it, is it going to be to reach consensus with all these nations taking part to what extent will literally have to water down his expectations? well yeah, this is fairly unprecedented because the, the heads of states from all the countries all 900 century. so going to be here. um and brazil this the least, the way of policy 7, the politics of force conservation. but also in terms of the, the force of the agent. um, so here i think it's going to be a very heterogeneous speaking. um, it's gonna be very hard to reach a complete consensus. but it's been on the gallery uh previous to the meeting of the heads of space. and the idea is that they are going to propose a, a so called, um, uh amazon prime its, um,

how is that? cuz that's gonna be done as anybody yet. um. but yeah, i'm thinking, you know, i'm here in the lane with steve your money to secure a uh, to waiting for all the heads of state and the main amazon. you've been the main drop off for centuries, including the, the big block protocol, the base and indonesia chat about feel free to go. this is president telling me that the silver guard i have to water down his expectations on this, as well as meeting of several come to this with very different situations in terms of what they're actually doing in the amazon far so the last of all expiration going on already, so let me say good it sort of find the middle way because he has to do that politically all the time. i think in the end will be a declaration that of stays important. things like the importance of saving these.

a 2 percent of them as in forest, but will also not speak, not take a firm stand against all expiration, cause presented itself on the move by the state of the company. to drill for oil in the mouth of amazon, luna, and a phase is that so he has to take around the middle stand on the list. he has to maybe such a bit, but it seems to me that the important thing of this meeting is exactly the amazon. com's is coming together to take a stand and the mom, the grace of voice, and all the comic discussions. what's going on that the various cops and international meetings and also a significant is the fact that just default and the official sides, indigenous peoples move over the amazon came together in the la, almost a 1000 of them. and what they said that amazing was that we want a voice in what's happening we once we had because without us,

there is no future for the awesome. so the, in this just bear with me at a, talking to the amazon come to lead to saying we want to be your voice at your table and the m as in president. so thing to the world. we want to pick a voice in climate discussions. ok, i want to come back to this issue of indigenous peoples and, and what role they should be playing at this summit in the future. a conservation of, of the amazon region. but the gen, to ecuador and peru currently dealing with their own domestic issues which, which could distract them, couldn't get from environmental concern concerns. i'm, it is protecting the amazon a priority for all of these nations right now. not necessarily, um, i mean really has decided to make it one of his priorities, but he also has a whole load of other problems to deal with. but at least he's committed himself to

0 for his clearing 0 deforestation. by 2030 is not easy because he has a sort of brewing from the coalition government, which includes potters, which don't see the same way which believe in the mining and farming in the amazon and after world he's taken over of the full years of very destructive pull this is in the amazon from the previous present. so both a lot who actively encouraged illegal mining is he who farming line grabbing and so and so he has to play really is kind of a leadership role. he wants his leadership role to 00 love to is the biggest is a come to the biggest share of amazon. but to none of these come to is, is it easy to take it sort of 100 percent stand in favor of them is that they have to deal with their internal issues as well. they have to deal with climate denies within their own countries. degree believe in oil drilling and all that's racial then as well also depends on all those myself. sure. so as soon as the course of

juggling all these different interest coming out with a declaration of damage, state certain things, and one things i think it will say is, is to criticize the protectionism of europe and come to this and also say with the money with all the money which is promised. $100000000000.00 for 2 developing countries for protecting the climate. brown. as jennifer saying lewis pledge to eliminate illegal deforestation by 2030 as high as president petro, of columbia. others is that target achievable on a given the various criminal groups that are expanding their activities right across the region. thanks for that question. i think we stood in blinds there or so on the number of the forward station because to be frank 0 tuesday for station, but the 1000 to 30 sounds good. but as far as you know, you listed what we observed in the amazon when we started investigating in the field, is that 70 percent of the amazon municipalities and the 6 main countries that showed

the amazon is under criminal control. so this actually means that most of the armed groups and gangs are deciding who can enter, who can leave what needs to pay texas to criminal networks and extortion phase. and which are the many common these donating daily life. and also damaging the amazon. what we see is that their respective governments are not able to enter these areas due to security concerns. so of course there is governance, but it's criminal governance. so i think the governments and they speak about before the station a mitigating environmental damages. they need to regain the confidence of populations, dates of buttons, and since many decades, or maybe even never had a presence in the amazon and, and they should tackle criminal networks because they are running the show. and the revenues of listed economies often times are larger than the budgets of governments to combat them. so problems you would argue that security must be high on the agenda at this, this summit. what, what can be done to stop these criminal gangs?

so it's very important that all the presidents come together for the 1st starter, and the security must be on the agenda because we see the rising homicide rates throughout the whole amazon. we see a norm as the number of mess occurs in rural colombia in the amazon. and we know that these organized crime networks are labeled parts to supply simulations to collab, break across the borders into sort of criminal diplomacy. despite linguist, stick and cultural barriers and affects the governments should be jealous because they haven't managed yet the corporate fully in the m as in the oldest criminal networks. so we need better communication, john solutions, but of course we don't only need to apply to stick, but we also need to help local populations and the fellow economic liberty on sustainable future plans and devin alternative, besides the interest of the company. because often side, oftentimes we see that these locals, if know all of our economic opportunities,

then to participate in legal, gold mining and elizabeth prop for farming like go pick her up today, many greeting, ok, other economies have destroyed the amazon. so lastly, and if you are going to have at the end of the m, as in a need to chose the be feeding your children are conserving the 1st, you always will up for feeding your children 1st. carlos, just how close to the tipping point is the amazon rain forest. how long before the damage that's being done to it becomes irreversible as well. i know we're already up to 20 percent in brazil and 50 except for the pen out of the whole 9 countries. on the estimates range from uh, let's say you get another a 20 percent of the for a station in the loan, which is about 2 uh, 3 pits. the whole, the whole region. we could already be um, you know,

we waive the tipping points. um, you know, of course, forced around the world account for 84 percent of all the carbon stored in all traditionally assistance. and the amazon alone is about 90 metric tops. and that's about 15 years worth of of, of greenhouse gas emissions. so it's absolutely imperative that we come to a on a premium that much of the agreement basically depends on indigenous peoples and local communities which control something like 45 percent of the position that was that alone. um indigenous territories. um, you know, they sure a huge role in fort conservation because there's, there's relatively little more station inside most of the deforestation is, is outside those areas. so at the moment, they're not actually getting paid for this. so the are sort of awesome years. and

you can see in this conference here, that the low of demand of for, you know, for this patient at the table is like, is increasing. and, you know, we're seeing a lot of lots of indians. what are, what are the chances, concepts of, of this summit, recognizing that enforcing land rights for addiction is people well this has been going on for a while. i mean, not all for a single loss of 5 years. we've had a, you know, a huge slow down in the den workstation and sanctioning of new indigenous territories. but this is with a little government this coming back again. the problem is that over the last 30 years, we've opened the, the floodgates of farmers uh, from elsewhere in brazil. and it is now very difficult to stop that frontier long and grabbing of log in farming generation. and now i go mine. and the,

fortunately capacity of the brazilian government is still very, very small, very, very low. so as you know, i think brazil does need of international ways and this is coming now with the, with the into of, i'm assuming, yeah. but it's a, it's a tough fence because, you know, if you're going to a control 5000000 square kilometers, we've only about 30 or 35 people. you know, that you, you know, you're up against a, a huge baffled trying to do all of the regions. governments recognize just how important the role indigenous people play in the conservation of the writing for as president knew that the silver created present was 1st ministry of indigenous peoples this year. but what about the other nations? well, i think it's very different situation in the and, and i was in come to is where this is people for a long time being much more organized than they were in brazil was in way

organizations really just become the last few years. i think connect, come to the it could do that who believe here, and this has people a hospital organize have a much more important political voice. reggie um says very different situation. even so indigenous peoples who lives a, she in the ellison far as i have been pushed off sell, i'm not seeing the rivers in hairs have been polluted by. all the company is exporting and drilling for oil. so the, the, during the front line as to this and as far as couldn't activities go as the previous speaker said, this is, this is an activity which has flourished in the last is in brazil. and in the us is equal criminal gains often connected to criminal gangs in the south and some pollen re you have taken over because the state, the government,

that the simply not being that. and i think this is one of the most vital things that the bassoon and govern. something else to do now is to put the, have the state active in these areas, much more enforcement in a way. that's where the become, i mean, there was, has been a big drive to clear out, illegal minus in the underlying me or if it sounds in the north and yeah, i'm a so i'm just a few days ago. the biggest line grab in brazil has been clearing far as the pushing and capital farming was that she rested and all his properties are confiscated. so the miller government is beginning to move for the lasers bots this year. as the previous speaker said, this was a huge area to police between force to control. and of course, the other side is providing jobs to people if they come work and illegal lining and the legal line clearing, what are they going to do with the jobs? so that frame poses a scientist, a cause shown that there are,

if you leave the corresponding there onto the rest of the economy, a by economy based on the store as using its products, using essences using pharmaceutical, developing pharmaceutical products. but the issue to area and list of things that has to be done. again, you need money for it as, as you say, the stock, it was a long way to go. as you say it, it's such a vast area. it is almost impossible to police. i mean, to do it properly, you're going to need the consensus of all the amazon nation. so i want you, you are going to the consensus and you'll see you're going to meet with him to 0 because the bassoon amazon is divided up among different states. with this, sometimes it's very conservative governments who are actively support for legal mining and caring for us. you have to deal with all these local differences as well because in many areas it's the local municipal government, which is the thoughtful for education of health and so on. so it's

a very complex situation that will need, i mean, at least level of expense in negotiation, but it's not going to be easy. brown, to what extent is, is outside funding an important here a the international community gets involved and we've got to us climate and boy, john kerry and francis president mccall and are both in attendance at the summit of denise rich nation is needed to be need to be persuaded to provide funds to protect the m, as in how much should we talking about here. and i think rich nations already are convinced about the importance of protecting the amazon, which is the world's largest carbon sink. and therefore, it's pre, so to preserve the amazon at the mitigate and the climate change. but we also know that the amazon has encroaching it to people and in which it will become an estimator. and therefore, the amazon can also become one of our worst. i mean is so it is a global importance to protect the innocent. let me know that the little funds and

potentially could be available because you know, somebody m as in countries kind of do it as by themselves. but i think as far as the, as the countries need to show that they are serious, if you have a concrete agenda and then they also have the technical capacity. for example, i was just listening to them and the other guests and talking about the operations by law and get them. i don't mind me surgery pushing out the legal miners, but it's a legal miners are being pushed across the border, typically on a facility. now to venezuela, so we have these migrating and gangs and elizabeth activities and i thought it was very important but was also mentioned that one of the main land gravitas in brazil was the rest. because oftentimes, law enforcement goes of to the low, low hanging fruits and the locals building the chain so, or manage the kettle or mining. but they never, a law firm never goes after the finances of before the stations, but need more. investors get the technical capacity. but it's also very important,

and this is roberta, global community comes into play and, and to investigate supply chains. because oftentimes, the commodities that come from the amazon from the forest, that areas be careful of sorry being needs laughter and minerals, hydrocarbons. they go to international markets and if there's no trace of the benefits and there's a very soft response. so we need the international community, all the countries in europe, north america, but also an agent, the step, all clean up their supply chains and funds efforts to protect the damage. and from you say, we're close to the tipping point here. how long are we got on with so much to be done, or is there enough time to do? is things go? no, this is why we need a concrete response. we need the very clear agenda. i just m as in so much. and then the, then the possibility of an m, as in parliament, sounds very good sports and reality. we didn't really know what it's about. and so we need the concrete measures and the political announcements like 0 deforestation . by to furnish the size and authority. we know that most presidents won't be

around them and, and politics. it's easy to say, but they won't be responsible for it. so we need actions being turned into legislation and better cooperation and more money on the table for sustainable economies. and regional law enforcement actions responds civilizing international buyers cleaning up the supply chain, better price, the better thing. and i think if there's a clear agenda and proposals with a bunch of them in the next few days, hopefully the international community can do that behind john with petro and luna, in in office. and then as well as president bureau back back up the summit up to not attending any regional meetings in, in recent years. is that, is that cost for optimism? i are you optimistic with this? somebody can achieve something concrete? well, i think got, i'm optimistic. does that make sense? just the fact that having it isn't both and just the fact that before the out to

somebody do have this meeting of maybe a 1000. this is people voice and data to months. i think that's close for optimism to reading over say within the, within the whole framework you too might want to read it was kind of a team. but as i said, just the fact that came together that the recognizing the problems and the voice in the moms and wanted to have a, a, a more active to position within the world climate discussions. i think that is a cause for optimism. there's a lot of have work involved. there's a lot of negotiation diplomacy involved, but they've taken this step. i think that's important. must be right. months call us to share jobs optimism no, absolutely. i mean this is an unprecedented meeting. and this is where we need to start the, there's, there's been producing very little communication between brazil and all the other amazonian countries. and i think that, you know,

the amazon contribution the treaty has be very powerless to do anything. i think this is a, this, the breath of fresh air that are these challenges ahead. but i think this is a big start. but time is of the essence, the times of the essence of because um, you know, even reducing or the terry illegal deforestation by 2030 is a huge target. and then also there is the definition of what is legal and what is the legal because what can be legal now? indeed, somebody come actually legal and entry over 5 years down the line depending on the on, on forest policy, particularly brazil. so yes, absolutely urgent. that we that we control the do for station and fire in the amazon. and i think this meeting is a big step for. thank you so much. all the people taking posit,

today's inside story called us pat us generalship and bram aimless. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again. but any time by going to the website which is at, i'll just 0. don't com for further discussion and join us at our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter, handle that a j inside story for me, adrian. instead of going on the same here though, we'll see you again, bye for now, the a. we look at the world's top business stories from global markets to economies and a small business sales force and including security around the world. is there something that the international community, your view should be doing to understand how it affects counting the cost on al jazeera? how does the same from a slow leak draw the big

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