doug, you qual, of the new monument honors those who fought for it, but didn't live to see this day for them. i hold my hand to apply the courage to be able to speak and stood for this place a sacred land. now finally preserved, rob reynolds, l g 0, red butte, arizona. the is this out to say are the headlines now. us temperature of states has spoken to the deposed on detained president of michigan. and the blinking started, he reassured mohammed by city of washington's commitment to finding a peaceful resolution from the men. it should take over the last month because he does have refused to meet that occasions from the you. and then after communion us state departments has given more details in the cold between the thinking,

unforeseen, i will speak to the conversations the secretaries had with present resume and those conversations. the secretary has number one looked for assessment of the situation from present. but zoom, number 2, he's been checking on his safety and his health and the health and safety of his family. and number 3, he has been rich, assuring him that we support the return to the constitutional order, and that is the position of the united states. and that is what we're trying to work towards. maybe as board a god say 27 refugees from sub saharan countries. and died in the past few days. the bodies were found dumped in the desert between libya and this young man and children were among the to attend. the belief to have died from hunger leeds. as of 8 south american countries have agreed to reduce deforestation in the amazon the merits at the summit, 10 percent then signed the declaration to conceptualize, not just reinforce the critics a dozen fine enough. so i mean,

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the hello and welcome to the stream. i'm not going to have it deep on today's show why or woman still? so for the representative in news media, take a look at this statistic in 2020 women were featured as the subject and sources of news stories only 25 percent of the time. and that figure was found in the latest analysis of more than $30000.00 stories around the world in tv, radio, print, and online sources. so what happens when women's perspectives are left out of the news and how does it fit into the bigger picture of gender equality?

well, you can join in on this conversation with your comments and questions via our live you to chat here with us to talk about how women are seen and heard in the media in perth, australia, katherine sine, a senior lecturer in journalism at current and university in nairobi and sarah materia, global coordinator at global media monitoring project, and in new castle in the u. k. we have karen ross, professor, a gender and media studies and new castle university. ladies, i'm so glad that you are with us and you know, just to address sort of the elephant in the room. it just so happens that this so topic happens when our usual host, who is family. okay. of course, who isn't woman unlike me, it should usually be in uh, in this chair instead of me. so, you know, we're mindful of that. i can promise you, there won't be any mans planning because you are the experts. so we're here to hear

from you. let's get straight to it. i want to ask you on sarah, you know, we heard that that statistic, 25 percent of the time. i mean, how would you underline or highlight the real problem when it comes to a representation for women in media as well. the problem of under representation of women in mainstream use content will most likely be with us for the next 3 to 4 generations. so we're not going to see pirates, you know, a life time. and in fact, what we have seen over time is that the piece of progress towards the end a quality has remain very, please feel the need to have towards the end. the piracy has moved on the 8 points in the 25. yes. so really, so the problem has persisted and has remains doubling over time. and i'd just like to see if this thing, but to that, in fact, the probability of a presentation of disability in the news is even slim

a for women who come from my knowledge and marginalized groups such as racialized in men, migrant to men and older women. i mean pops, i can give an example. yeah. yeah, 3 is 3. is an please give us, give an exam test in the u. k. for, for instance, the likelihood of under representation more than doubled for ethnic minority to women in comparison to white british women. no, i appreciate you giving us that example because you know, this is not just about, you know, one aspect, but things can tend to be compounded when it comes to women and minorities. as you've mentioned, i see that as you were speaking. i. catherine was nodding, so i just want to give her a chance sarah, to jump in here. catherine, what did you make of how sarah sort of framed this issue? this problem i saw you were nodding and i want to know, you know, when we talk about inclusion and then representation, those are 2 separate issues. a why are they important to discuss as well we, we need the place to, to states that the g m,

m p has highlighted. so it consistently over time. so that we've been under represented. and that is, that is a huge part of the problem. but the way that women are included in the news is also very important. so including minority groups, including modularized perspectives, is really important. but also trying to avoid the stereotypes that often come with, including women in the news, including women, and always referencing them as mothers, for example, mainly including women to personal opinion instead of as well. sorry, i think is karen you, you know, when you listen in on what, what's been said so far, i'm curious, you've been working on this for many years, and i know that you frame it as marginalization as well as stereotyping when we kind of outlined the main issues, why those 2? and i think that, i mean again, let me give a, a couple of examples and we're on the welcome to and at the moment is looking at

women older women within the media workforce who have been maneuvered out of, of the jobs because of well, so for a variety of reasons, none of which allow us to do with the competence. so the professionalism, so totally agree with, with the point that kind of service been making. and in terms of the, you know, we have to take so much more dysfunctional approaches, not just about women, it's about women with particular characteristics and date, you know, there's, there's also issues about older people generally being seen based in, in, in front, behind the camera. and in terms of nice friends and in representation, but the point to box juxtaposing, marginalization, which stereotyping is that it's if you're doing research around kind of general meet you, it's actually quite difficult to try and analyze an absence. in the absence of women, you can only really look at women all present to where women are present. they tend to be exactly as katherine's mentioned. you know,

they are often seen as people who will give x, but who gets a public personal opinion. mm. be, you know, positive you know that the public, we don't see women as experts. and again, just thinking about co fade, you know, we knows that kind of health has been seen very much as of a domain of women. however, if i think about the u. k news media and i guess it's the same everywhere else where you would expect more women's voices to come in those x. but within the kind of health context like coded, we just didn't see that, you know, and when we, when we looked at the g, m. p in the last the, the last iteration which was in 2020, like in the middle of the pond to make we, we look specifically at cuz it 19 stories as opposed to more general new stories. and again, we just saw it. we see the same patents for patient, and the question we have to, well surely is, why is such is it? it wouldn't have nothing to say right? because women on the x, but on the opposite to both those questions, there's no,

no, of course it's not. and then, you know, that's why we're discussing this issue and because you brought up the corona virus, i want to get to some of the comments that are coming in on youtube in a moment. but before we do, sarah, when we talk about the corona virus and news coverage, specifically of depend, i make, we know that it skewed heavily to mail experts. um, uh, you know, i think it was what one 3rd. yeah, one 3rd of source is quoted about the cove and 1910 demik were women, i mean only one 3rd. and i'm wondering, you know, what it, what is that actually mean? i mean, you know why, what is contributing to the problem is it, are you, are we able to identify sort of the 2 biggest factors in your mind, sarah, as well actually, it's interesting because, um, we found that, uh, well the for the longest time that we have been analyzing the science and health stories they've, they've always been the back of the news agenda, occupying about 7 percent of all the topics in the news,

but through the corporate 19 health crisis. the, the proportion of stories double to 17 percent of the news agenda. and as a, as a news becomes more important gain, cdns, we find that to women ident relegated to the margins as, as the people who are subject to the new, the source of the news, which is pretty interesting. uh, i've been that movie pills. yes. i'm sorry. i'm only interjecting to say it's, it's maybe not surprising, but it's a spanish thing that, that, you know, there's that correlation where, you know, when women visibility before sort of the attention of, of, depends on make on how they were hire more visible. and then once it became popular, all of a sudden they were less miserable, invisible. what's, what's, what's driving now? it's interesting. it seems like, you know, as stories become important um, on the news agenda of. busy women,

when you are the other, the, the tend to be related data to the margins. and i, i really, it's, it's hard to explain that, for example, doing the health crises because women who are the caregivers. women who are present in, in, uh, trying to me to get the, the impact of dependent on, on the elderly, on children on the, on the, on general populations. yet when the news report as us was sourcing for x by the opinion of women, why i think about half of like 26 percent of those were interviewed as experts who are present associates. yeah. in then as health specialist, while women and when you look at the group as well as the 26, almost 50 percent of those work in health care. right? all women, well, so it is really astonishing to find. yeah that, that,

that disparity certainly certainly invites a lot more questions. one of those, i'll put to you karen. i mean, in the u. k. i remember anecdotally that the briefings were largely delivered by men, even though, as we just heard from sarah, you know, i'm sure there were excellent qualified women in the field doing a lot of the work. why is this the case in your experience, anecdotally, and why is such a little progress progress been made? well, i mean, not even a unintentionally. i mean, the, you know, those, those, that's the best agents to, to shows us and even, you know, major organizations themselves mean to go to did a really interesting piece of work. a couple of other kind of news news teams and thoughts on this. something similar in terms of looking at where women are paid in those coping briefings speak, which go back, you know, over a very long period. and the that was a, as a rule, i think. so, you know, at least one study looked at something like, you know, briefings over 9 months and that's very few women now. ok play. it's not because

the want really, you know, expect women. jenny hurries for, for example. who was, you know, a key person who did actually a pair of occasionally to kind of go to be part of the, the, the, the panel a 3 which is what we, we tons to get in the k. so it's not like women blow a totally opposite, but when you expected women to be talking and briefing the public, that was really that was very scarcely visible. however, on the other hand, also kind of major organizations, other countries in particular, if i just think about new saying that usually you into particular were much more proactive and pushing women in front of the public glassware or other countries on the, on the, on the grounds that, you know, it's, even if we think about when it's communication sto, sickly during co said there is a necessarily kind of jump to a stop at different sco stalled about she commuting health messages. right. so

there's lots of research which suggests that where that did happen, that was much more that the public, the citizens to know who were being addressed by. ready these ok, please slightly better communicate is actually understood more about cope it on you know, how the, how the price is working. right. but you know, but policy just to get back to your question like why, why do we get what we guess be one of the reasons i would suggest i can say this because i'm a major academic. i don't work in a nice read. seems to me that partly it's because it's much easier to go to the usual suspects, right? if you will read the us a john this, if you already have a really good relationship with the particular such effects. but so particular such a politicians you are going to go to those people. and so if we think about it might even be unconscious bias or just habit forming behavior as you're saying, you know, i mean, i think so much of human behavior and i'm not trying to just dismiss at that. there's no massage any involved or what have you. um, but yeah, i think it could be just

a product of habit. good and not about the ultimate. i mean, i would just so it just let me just see and i mean i, i would say i love to. so i love this phrase. i'm conscious because uh, because for me my experience and it goes little off the wise is most of these policies or anything, but i'm calling to try right and so much we we, we use this to but we should just be side is conscious, but there is some associated almost every 6, it's kind of, it's racism. it's almost as if, when you say, i'm conscious by it's like you're, you're giving people a pass. if you will, to perpetuate your, your time and your time. keep doing that, which isn't just say that there isn't unconscious, but as you know, you know, there are all sorts of ways in which we're appraising which will, you know, positive of kind of cultural day and i, i'm no, no, no sign up. but i am saying that, yeah, it's not like you don't know that you're going to a mind to out you just to good. yes. and the mind spouting on yes, yes. and also, which isn't to say that they don't have interesting things to cite, but wouldn't it be so much more interesting to have

a range of perspectives from across the right. you know, the spectrum a p monitor, right. and i think, you know, often and in, in, in the media. if i vote for give me sir, i just want to jump in here with the small anecdote. i mean, for, for a long time i've said, you know, when discussing the media, the democratization and media, which, which hasn't fully sort of, uh, self actualized, if you will, that, you know, there was a time when the only voice is deemed to be sort of authoritative incredible, we're older white men, and i think those legacies take a long time as we're witnessing to, to change, let alone completely be equalized. i do want to mention know if i will say, or i'll put this to you. i was going to go to catherine. but so many people in our youtube chat, i mean talking about bias and talking about so i'll just put it straight to you. i mean, sid saying the question is when will women be satisfied when they abolished men completely from the conversations? and then we have maybe a slightly more useful question from our k o. 1988 saying, how can you say women are under represented in media when there are literal quotas

and incentives to hire women? they replaced casts and movies with women, even though the films perform poor. so needless to say, there's a lot of sort of massage demand for lack of a better word and our comment section. i don't know if there a, do you want to address those comments before i come to you, catherine, of what, where like can see this and it is that a lot to extent or to some extent, you can see that the issue is socialization carrying due to to the issue of culture and in many cultures is particularly in the global south context. mean, many cultures, women are socialized goals in minnesota and i used not to be present in the public eye in the public domain to india for it becomes the, you know, even more difficult for them to be present to be visible. but there is an on us here on the news organizations or news rooms to make the effort to go out and

find these women and, and get them to, to speak. you know, one thing that be found in our research is that for the 1st time in the since 1995, there was a jump in the proportion of women who was thoughtful x by the opinion between 20152020. and that could be perhaps, because the, uh, the, you know, news organizations have taken this critique on board. and there have been some, some have taken these on board. and, and there have been a much rooming of various initiatives to create the activities of human experts. so perhaps it could be, well, you know, one of the reasons we've, we found that to that jump. sure, sure. and let's jump to another expert. um, uh, katherine, i want to put this to you. i mean, i don't know if you want to comment on some of those comments in the youtube chat. maybe, maybe it's not bad and productive to do so. but i do want to ask you specifically, i mean, our women, then, you know, we talked about socialize ation, are women,

and then less likely to see themselves as experts less likely to want to be interviewed on tv. how does that sort of play into this? and, you know, i know there's already been such an erosion of trust when we talk about the news media in general. so how does that work in it and then internalize sense as well. i think the most interesting thing that i found from my research is that i have a role. there was a very high degree of willingness to be interviewed with the women that i have interviewed myself or done through. oh, i got therapy needs reset by research and mm hm. so i don't, i honestly don't be willing, this is so much of an issue. i do think that lots of women, um, like the confidence that men sometimes do have to nervousness is a fact though. and so in general, as i think need to be aware of that. and we went through have some reservations about appearing in the news and some of those reservations i think,

justified. and so i think it's really important that jen lists are aware of those things and really try to mitigate them and make the whole experience as positive as it can be. i think the, the, the initial approach for an interview is really, really crucial. ready and part of that is that a theme is to find the whole process explaining exactly what the interview entails . what sort of information the, the generalist is looking for. so sort of sort of taking the, the perspective souls through the, in the step by step could be really helpful. mm hm. and um, keeping, you know, i think if you give women a squint a chance i up, i do want to be opportunity to speak. they want the sort of the, the validation and the credibility that comes with that nice tight. does it mean i'm, i'm really shocked at some of the responses that you're getting on you in a, through your youtube. yeah. the when you look at the subsea sticks the site, it's like clear. and the women under represented this is, this is obviously

a problem that needs to be addressed. and why shouldn't women's voices being like, well, i mean, well, i don't, i don't want to, sorry, i do want also share, you know, there are some other comments like, found that yes, mean thing, women's lack of representation and media basically means the exclusion of half of the population and it's obvious. so in order to develop a country, it is important to include them. we also have people who are saying, you know, that we need to be focusing on this in the, our world. see less larson, thing i'll do 0. i must turn its critical lens on the outer world more often, that there's great disparity there on this issue. i think it's just important for giving me catherine, for interjecting but i do want to just frame, you know, women in conflict zones or what have you. i mean, it can be tricky, you know, for some women in certain cultures there is this association for better or worse, this pressure that you must be modest, you must not speak, you know, i or guardian or a lot of public attention. i mean, these are pockets of the worlds, not the whole world, but you know,

so culture obviously plays a role as well. and i'm wondering sarah diffuser and continue with this business as usual. what's the real fear in your mind? just to put it briefly as well? uh for sure, i think could be there's going to be an erosion, a continued erosion of trusting joint lives in a, at the moment for, you know, the doing this thing is in crisis. we have heard about media organizations closing . we've heard about many cutbacks in, in the, in news rooms, and that's a region of trust, a lead. so the groups that i'm much analyzed to a phone deal when we do organizations at the margins, which is really not what you want, right? we, you know, we all need to belong to the mainstream and we need to, we need to have a media that of participate. so please it's role in building a democratic society, right. you know, in being a peal of democracy and ensuring that all the voice is a hug. and i,

and i see that there are, forgive me. sorry, karen that you were nodding and sarah was making the point there. i do want to share with you that we have a youtube. com and coming in from janine saying media especially is prejudiced against older women in media. we spoke about earlier. if you're a minority. yeah. and a woman, and that's compounded as well as for the elderly before i i come to sir, uh for you me, karen? to answer the question. i do want to include one more women's voice may be familiar to those of you who watch the show. it is none other than i mean she sent us this video comments. take a lesson, a ways gender power to use person to us at the stream. i think the question should be, why is it not as important to every media organization? we but tell several years ago that if we are not representing call of the humans in the world, we're not doing a good job. so every time we sit down, do a show. we have to see where the women in that conversation, what expertise can they bring to us on the street?

sometimes you will see more women, the men we are balancing out the universe. it is a mission that we are so proud to be on and it is never over. you can never sit back and think we did it this year, but do it again next year. we have to keep checking. but the importance of this is not just to represent me, but once you start to look at under represented groups in the media, you stop seeing many of the communities we also need that platform and what she stops you counts. and it should be noted that, you know, it's there in 202260.74 percent of gas on the screen where women that's up from 54.9 percent in 2021 we've exceeded our gender balance school for the 5th year in a row. and just so you know, if you go back a few years in 2018, we've made a public plaids to never finish a year without at least 50 percent women guests. and it's not just find me who is

usually the host of the show, but many women who work behind the scenes tirelessly to put the show together. and, and, you know, i wonder karen watching some of the questions that i me was asking, what comes to your mind, i mean, looking forward, where are the solutions, what shouldn't be done to bridge the gap? okay, so i mean, like i love the worst, i me say and you know, bolt on, which is there's the stream of the, you know, being, being in the fund. good. i mean, following on in some ways to bbc's efforts with 5050 projects, which again, they faced best. austin 2017 doing media monitoring around gender and us from uses . now they're looking at also kind of us, but so looking at disability, they're looking at close and the, the, the looking at my north, other racialized minorities. so media organizations all are doing things. but can i just say that one of the, the key area that we really need to kind of focus on the generative some students. because what if we can actually encourage our students to think about issues around

the quality and sexuality? was they all still john and john and the some students while they're still developing the cross before they become, you know, get, get you into the news room and necessarily become a acculturated to the norms of that particular nation. if we can get them thinking about what, how they want to be done as well, what the kind of moral ethical code is and gets the right thinking about these things now while those students and just to say it good. if i just think about my own street, my own students, a new coastal university, very quickly, we're running into time already been working. well, i'm gonna say is that we have been working with the bbc's 5050 projects, and the more that we could make the interface between jonas and students and nice rooms, we might have some hope of producing john generations have done that for you. actually, this is part that didn't have any current, i'm going to have to cut you off there, but that is certainly an aspiration. that is a good way to end to show this conversation one that's going to continue here at

the stream. that's all the time we have for today. i do want to thank all of our guests today, sir. i, catherine and karen for joining us. many more conversations here at the stream the . the focus on alex's in will be attending the summit in south africa with an international warrant out for the rest for suspected war. fine. can you travel anywhere? so i'm told stories from across asia in the pacific one. 0 one east. it's crazy d issues affecting the slaves, most populous region. the rates for the white house keeps up with donald trump take

pump in the republic and policies, 1st debates or hold his own. private riley people impala investigates the topic impacted on ukraine's fragile items. and that's the temperature of solar and biodiversity plummets the global environmental facility to coordinate financing for international action. assembled in canada focused on l. g 0 african narratives from african perspectives embark on the shore documentary from an african filmmakers from nigeria, south africa, and cameron rule out your 5 topic, corporate space and turn it into a foot for us as stone crushes, song, get really gone. and modern p next calls camera, africa, direct on just sierra. how do they control information? how does the narrative improve public opinion?

how is this is intended this and we framing the story. the listening post, i sex, the media, we don't cover the news. we cover the way the news is covered. the, the business community does reject gifts and that takes appeals to a store. civilian who released the depends president the carry johnston. this is all just here a lot from the i will say coming up, the number of migraines attempt to cross the minutes right in front and this is, it's the continues to rise. another 41 people die is that boat sinks near them produced the report from bangladesh where the army has been called in to help hundreds of thousands of people stranded by slugs into the.