new and better experience for ukraine. other countries have had similar experiences . the young man returned after killing the enemy, but the aggression remains. when they come here, they must be ready to accept help. the important thing is we should not ignore this problem. silas, as ukraine needs to better prepare society for how to deal with sol, just returning from war 12 and the search and mental health problems and abuse steadfast and l to sierra to discuss that with ukraine. the . let's take you through some of the headlines here. now to 0, now the leaders of 8 south american nations amazing in brazil for a 2nd day to discuss how to safe, called the future of the amazon. on day one, they signed the declaration which includes forming of the lines to conserve the rain forest. or like america, the tennessee and newman has moved from the summit and blame this meeting has

fallen far short of coming up with targets deadlines, which so many people around the world had been looking forward to and the cost. and that said is absolutely imperative. in fact, critics say that the, the final 10000 word, i think it was declaration, had a whole bunch of promises and certainly good intentions for cooperation amongst the countries. but that it didn't go much further than the paris agreement that was signed 7 years ago that basically said that they had to reach goals. now they are continuing to kick the walls forward. the us secretary of state has spoken to the deposed and detained president of nisha, anthony blinking said he reassured in the hand that the zoom of washington's commitment to finding a peaceful resolution following the military takeover last month to follow through on migrants of ground in the by the train, and when the boat capsized, it set out from the bolt of spikes and to this,

yet having for it solely for others on board were rescued. the italian island of land producer libby is bullied to god say 27 migrants from the subs to holland countries have died in the past few days. the bodies were found dumped in that as it between libya and 2 nicea women and children are among the dead. i believe, to have died from hunger foss, moving wild fires on the island of maui in hawaii. full, some people to jump into the sea to escape some buttons. victims will need to be lifted off the island for treatment. 11 bodies have been found after a fire broke out at the holiday home. in ne, from a group of adults with learning disabilities has been staying in the house. 17 people on the ground floor were able to evacuate, safely. is the stream next. so stay with us.

the challenges the or the hello and welcome to the stream. i'm not quite savvy, deep on today's show. why are women still so for the representative in news media? take a look at this statistic. in 2020 women were featured as the subject and sources of news stories only 25 percent of the time. and that figure was found in the latest analysis of more than $30000.00 stories around the world in tv, radio, print,

and online sources. so what happens when women's perspectives are left out of the news and how does it fit into the bigger picture of gender equality? well, you can join in on this conversation with your comments and questions via our live you to chat here with us to talk about how women are seen and heard in the media in perth, australia. katherine sine, a senior lecturer in journalism at christian university in nairobi. and sarah, i'm a t r e, a global coordinator at global media monitoring project and in new castle in the u . k. we have karen ross, professor of gender and media studies and new castle university. ladies, i'm so glad that you're with us and you know, just to address sort of the elephant in the room. it just so happens that this so topic happens when our usual host, who is family. ok of course of well isn't woman unlike me?

said usually be in uh in this chair instead of me. so, you know, we're mindful of that. i can promise you, there won't be any mans planning because you are the experts. so we're here to hear from you. let's get straight to it. i want to ask you, um, sarah, you know, we heard that that statistic, 25 percent of the time. i mean, how would you underline or highlight the real problem when it comes to a representation for women in media as well? the problem will bundle you present taishan of women in mainstream news. content will most likely be with us for the next $3.00 to $4.00 generations. so we're not going to see pirates, you know, a lifetime. and in fact, what we have seen over time is that the piece of progress towards the end, a quality has remained very, please feel the need those towards the end. the power t has moved on the 8 points in the 25. yes. so really, because the problem has persisted and has remains doubling over time. and i'd just

like to see if this thing, but to that, in fact, the probability of a present cation of disability in the news is even slim. a for women who come from my knowledge and marginalized groups, such as racialized in men, migrant to men and older women. i mean, perhaps i can give an example. yeah, yeah, create stories and a please give us, give an example. yes. in the u. k for, for instance, the likelihood of under representation more than doubled for ethnic minority to women in comparison to white british women. no, i appreciate you giving us that example because you know, this is not just about, you know, one aspect, but things can tend to be compounded when it comes to women, minorities, as you've mentioned, i see that as you were speaking. catherine was nodding, so i just want to give her a chance sarah, to jump in here. catherine, what did you make of how sarah sort of framed this issue? this problem i saw you were nodding and i want to know, you know,

when we talk about inclusion and then representation, those are 2 separate issues. a why are they important to discuss as well we, we need to place to, to states that the g m m p has highlighted. so it consistently over time. so that we've been under represented. and that is, that is a huge part of the problem. but the way that women are included in the news is also very important. so including minority groups, including modularized perspectives, is really important. but also trying to avoid the stereotypes that often come with, including women in the news, including women, and always referencing them as mothers, for example, mainly including women to a personal opinion instead of as i'm sorry to think is. and karen, you, you know, when you listen in on what, what's been said so far, i'm curious, you've been working on this for many years, and i know that you frame it as marginalization as well as stereotyping when we kind of outlined the main issues. why those 2?

i think that, i mean again, let me give a, a couple of examples. and when the work i'm doing at the moment is looking at women older women within the media workforce who have been maneuvered out of, of the jobs because of well, so for a variety of reasons, none of which all has to do with competence. so the professionalism, so totally agree with, with the point that kind of service been making. and in terms of the, you know, we have to take so much more into sectional approaches, not just about women. it's about, you know, women with particular characteristics date, you know, there's, there's also issues about older people generally being seen, based in, in, in front and behind that the camera and in terms of nice friends and, and representation. but the point about juxtaposing, marginalization with stereotyping is that it's, if you're doing research around kind of general meet you, it's actually quite difficult to try and analyze an absence. in the absence of

women, you can only really look at women all present to where women are present. they tend to be exactly as customer ins. mentioned, you know, they are often seen as people who will give x. but who give public personal opinion be you know, positive you know, they the public, we don't see women as experts. and again, just thinking about co said yeah, we know that kind of. 1 this has been seen very much as of a domain of women. however, i think about the u. k. news media, and i guess it's the same everywhere else. well, you would expect more women's voices to come in as x, but within the kind of health context like coded, we just didn't see that, you know, and when we, when we looked at the g, m. p in the last the, the last iteration which was in 2020 like in the middle of the pond to make we, we look specifically at cuz it 19 stories as opposed to. yeah. which i know new stories and again we just, so we see the same patents for patient. and the question we have to,

well surely is, why is such is it? it wouldn't have nothing to say right? because women on the x but, and they also to both those questions. there's no, no of course it's not. and then you know, that's why we're discussing this issue. and because you brought up the krona virus, i want to get to some of the comments that are coming in on youtube in a moment. but before we do, sarah, when we talked about the corona virus and news coverage, specifically of depend, i make, we know that it skewed heavily to mail experts. and you know, i think it was what one 3rd. yeah, one 3rd of source is quoted about the cove and 1910 demick were women, i mean only one 3rd. and i'm wondering, you know, what it, what is that actually mean? i mean, you know, it why, what is contributing to the problem? is it, are you, are we able to identify sort of the 2 biggest factors in your mind, sarah, as well actually it's interesting because, um, we found that, uh well the for the longest time that we have been analyzing the science and health

stories they've, they've always been at the back of the news agenda, occupying about 7 percent of all the topics in the news, but to the corporate 19 health crisis. and the proportion of stories double, 17 percent of the news agenda. and as a, as the news becomes more important gain, cdns, a, we find that to women, i've been relegated to the margins as, as the people who are subject to the new, the source of the news. which is pretty interesting. uh, i've been that movie pills. yes. i'm sorry, i'm only interjecting to say it's, it's maybe not surprising, but it's astonishing that, that, you know, there's that correlation where, you know, when women's visibility before sort of the attention of, of, depends on make on how they were hire more visible. and then once it became popular,

all of a sudden they were less miserable, invisible. what's, what's, what's driving now? it's interesting. it seems like, you know, as stories become important um, on the news agenda. busy women, when you are the other, the, the tend to be related data to the margins. and it's really, it's, it's hard to explain that. for example, during the health crises, it is women who are the caregivers. women who are present in, in, uh, trying to me to get the, the impact of dependent on, on the elderly, on children, on uh, on the, on general populations. yet when the news report as us was tossing for x. but the opinion of women, why i think about half of like 26 percent of those were interviewed as experts who are present associates in then as health specialist to

a women. and when you look at the really was the to 6, almost 50 percent of those work in health care. right? all women, well, so it is really astonishing to find. yeah, that's that, that disparity certainly certainly invites a lot more questions. one of those, i'll put to you karen, i mean, in the u. k. i remember anecdotally that the briefings were largely delivered by men, even though, as we just heard from sarah, you know, i'm sure there were excellent qualified women in the field doing a lot of the work. why is the case in your experience, anecdotally and why is such a little progress progress been made? well, i mean, not even a unintentionally. i mean, the, you know, those, those best, the best agents to, to shows us and even, you know, meet your organizations themselves. mean, the guardian did a really interesting piece of work, a couple of other kind of news news teams and for which i've done this something similar in terms of looking at where women are paid in those coping briefings speak, which will break, you know, over a very long period and the that was a, as a rule,

i think so, you know, at least one study looked at something like, you know, briefings. i've had 9 months and that's very few women now. ok play. it's not because that want really, you know, expect women. jenny hurries for, for example. who was, you know, a key person who did actually a pair of occasionally to kind of go to be part of the, the, the, the panel of 3, which is what we, we tons to get in the k. so it's not like women blurring totally opposite, but when you expected women to be talking and briefing the public, that was really, it was very scarcely visible. however, on the other hand, also kind of major organizations, other countries in particular, if i just think about using that using into particular well, much more proactive and pushing women in front of the public glassware or other countries on the, on the, on the grounds that you know it's you, if we think about when it's communication sto, sickly during co said there is

a not necessarily cut a jump to a stop at different sco stalled about she community health messages. right. so there's lots of research which suggests that where that did happen, that was much more that the public, the citizens that you know, who were being addressed by these. ok, please. so the best to communicate is actually understood more about cope it on your how the, how the price is working. right. but you know, but policy just to get back to your question like why, why do we get what we guess be one of the reasons i would suggest i'd like to cite is because i'm a major academic. i don't work in a nice room. it seems to me that partly it's because it's much easier to go to the usual suspects. right. and if you were at the us a john this, if you were to have a really good relationship with the particular such effects, but so particular, so to politicians, you are going to go to those people. and so if we think about it might even be unconscious bias or just habit forming behavior as you're saying, you know, i mean,

i think so much of human behavior and i'm not trying to just dismiss at that. there's no massage any involved or what have you. but yeah, i think it could be just a product of habit. could and not about the ultimate. i mean, i would just so it just let me just see and i mean i, i would say i'd love to. so i love this face, i'm conscious because uh, because for me, my experience and it goes slower. otherwise is most of these policies or anything, but i'm calling to try. right. and so much we we, we use this to, but we should just be psych is called just by that reason. the search engine almost always sucks. it covers racism. it's almost like this when you say, unconscious bias like you're, you're giving people a pass, if you will, to perpetually pick out your, your timesheet. and you're trying to keep doing that, which isn't to say that there isn't unconscious. but as you know, you know, there are all sorts of ways in which we're appraising which will, you know, positive of a kind of cultural day and i, i'm no, no, no sign up. but i am saying that, yeah, it's not like you don't know that you're going to a mind to out to you. yes,

a good. yes. and the mind here, just spouting on just yes and also, which isn't to say that they don't have interesting things to say. but what did it be so much more interesting to have a range of perspectives from across the right. you know the spectrum a few minutes, right. and i think, you know, often and in, in, in the media. if i vote for give me sir, i just want to jump in here with the small anecdote. i mean, for, for a long time i've said, you know, when discussing the media, the democratization and media, which, which hasn't fully sort of, uh, self actualized, if you will, that, you know, there was a time when the only voice is deemed to be sort of authoritative incredible, we're older white men, and i think those legacies take a long time as we're witnessing to, to change, let alone completely be equalized. i do want to mention know if i will say, or i'll put this to you. i was going to go to catherine. but so many people in our youtube to, i mean talking about bias and talking about so i'll just put it straight to you. i mean, sid saying the question is, when will women be satisfied when they abolish men? completely from the conversations. and then we have maybe

a slightly more useful question from our k o. 1988 saying, how can you say women are under represented in media when there are literal quotas and incentives to hire women? they replaced casts and movies with women, even though the films perform poor. so needless to say, there is a lot of sort of massage demand for lack of a better word and our comment section. i don't know if there a, do you want to address those comments before i come to you, catherine, of what, where like can see this a and it is that a to a large extent or to some extent, you can see that the issue is socialization occurring due to, to the issue of culture and in many cultures is particularly in the global south context. mean many cultures, women are socialized goals in minnesota raised not to be present in the public eye in the public domain. true. and therefore, it becomes the, you know, even more difficult for them to,

to be present to be visible. but there is an on us here on the news organizations or news rooms to make the effort to go out and find these to be a man and, and get them to, to speak. you know, one thing that be found in our research is that for the 1st time in the since 1995, there was a jump in the proportion of, of women who was thoughtful, expedite to opinion between 20152020. and that could be perhaps, because the, uh, the, you know, news organizations have taken this critique on board. and there have been some, some have taken these on board. and, and there have been a much rooming of various initiatives to create the activities of human experts. so perhaps it could be, well, you know, one of the reasons that we found that to that jump. sure, sure. and let's jump to another expert. um, uh, katherine, i want to put this to you. i mean,

i don't know if you want to comment on some of those comments in the youtube chat. maybe, maybe it's not bad and productive to do so. but i do want to ask you specifically, i mean, our women and you know, we talk about socialize, asian, are women, then less likely to see themselves as experts less likely to want to be interviewed on tv. how does that sort of play into this? and, you know, i know there's already been such an erosion of trust when we talk about the news media in general. so how does that work in it and then internalize sense as well. i think the most interesting thing that i found for my research is that i have a role. there is a very high degree of willingness to be interviewed with the women that i have interviewed myself or done through this. oh, i got therapy needs reset by research. mm hm. so i don't, i honestly don't be willing, this is so much of an issue. i do think that lots of women um, like the confidence that men sometimes do have. so nervousness is a fact though,

and so in general, as i think need to be aware of that. and women do have some reservations about appearing in the news and some of those reservations i think, justified. and so i think it's really important that journalists are aware of those things and really try to mitigate them and make the whole experience as positive as it can be. i think the, the, the initial approach for an interview is really, really crucial. and part of that is that a d, mystifying the whole process explaining exactly what the interview entails. what sort of information the, the generalist is looking for. so sort of, um, sort of taking the, the prospective falls through the, in the step by step could be really helpful. mm hm. and um, keeping, you know, i think if you give women a squint a chance i up, i do want the opportunity to speak. they want the sort of the, the validation and the credibility that comes with that nice tight. does that mean?

i'm really shocked at some of the responses that you're getting on you in a, through your youtube. yeah. the, when you look up a subsea sticks the site, it's likely that women are under represented. this is, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. and why shouldn't women's voices being like, well, i mean, i don't, i don't want to, sorry, i do. and also share, you know, there are some other comments like santa yes mean thing, women's lack of representation. and media basically means the exclusion of half of the population and it's obvious. and in order to develop a country, it is important to include them. we also have people who are saying, you know, that we need to be focusing on this in the, our world. see less larson, thing i'll do 0. i must turn its critical lens on the outer world. more often that there's great disparity there on this issue. i think it's just important for giving me catherine, for interjecting but i do want to just frame, you know, women in conflict zones or what have you. i mean, it can be tricky. you know, for some women in certain cultures, there is this association for better or worse,

this pressure that you must be modest, you must not speak, you know, are gardner, a lot of public attention. i mean, these are pockets of the worlds, not the whole world, but you know, so culture obviously plays a role as well. and i'm wondering sarah diffuser and continue with this business as usual. what's the real fear in your mind? just to put it briefly as well? as for sure, i think could be there's going to be an erosion, a continued erosion of trusting joint lives in a, at the moment for, you know, the doing this thing is in crisis. we have heard about media organizations closing . we've heard about many cutbacks in, in the, in news rooms, and that's a region of trust, a lead. so the groups that i'm much analyzed to a phone that when we do organizations at the margins, which is really not what you want, right. we, you know, we all need to belong to the mainstream and we need to, we need to have

a media that of participate. so please it's role in building a democratic society, right. you know, in being a peal of democracy and ensuring that all the voice has a hug. and i, and i see that there are for give me, sorry, karen that you weren't nodding and sarah was making the point there. i do want to share with you that we have a youtube common coming in from janine saying media especially is prejudiced against older women in media. we spoke about earlier. if you're on minority. yeah. and a woman, and that's compounded as well as for the elderly before i come to sir, uh for you me, karen? to answer the question. i do want to include one more women's voice may be familiar to those of you who watch the show. it is none other than i mean she sent us this video comments. take a lesson the ways gender power to you've posted it to us at the stream. i think the question should be, why is it not as important to every media organization? we what tell several years ago that if we are not representing cause of the humans

in the world, we're not doing a good job. so every time we sit down, do a show. we have to see where the women in that conversation, what expertise can they bring to us on the street? sometimes you will see more within the main. we are balancing out the universe. it is a mission that we are so proud to be on, and it is never of that. you can never sit back and think we did it this year, but do it again next year. we have to keep checking. but the importance of this is not just to represent me, but once you start to look at under represented groups in the media, you start seeing many of the communities we also need that platform and what she stops you counts. and it shouldn't be noted that you know, there in 202260.74 percent of guests on the stream were women. that's up from 54.9 percent in 2021. we've exceeded our gender balance goal for the 5th year in

a row. and just so, you know, if you go back a few years in 2018, we've made a public plans to never finish a year without at least 50 percent women guests. and it's not just family who is usually the host of the show. but many women who work behind the scenes tirelessly to put the show together. and, and, you know, i wonder at karen watching some of the questions that i knew was asking, what comes to your mind. i mean, looking forward where the solutions, what shouldn't be done to bridge the gap. okay, so, i mean, but i love the worst, i me say and you know, well john, oh, just there's the stream of for, you know, being, being in the fun. good. i mean, following on in some ways to bbc's efforts with 5050 projects, which again, they faced test austin 2017 to meet the monitoring around gender. an us by me says, now they're looking at also kind of us. but so looking at disability, they're looking to close and the, the, the looking at my north of the racialized minorities, so media organizations all doing things. but can i just say that one of the,

the key area that we really need to kind of focus on the generative some students. because what if we can actually encourage our students to think about issues around the quality and sexuality was a all still john and john and the, some students while they're still developing the cross before they become, you know, get, get you into a new eastern and necessarily becomes a acculturated to the norms of that particular nature. and if we can get them thinking about what, how they want to be done as well. what the kind of moral ethical code is and gets the right thinking about these things. now while those students and just to say good, if i just think about my own street, my own students, a nickel, so university, very quickly we're running into time. i've been working on is gonna say, is that we have been working with the bbc's, 5050 projects and the most we could make the interface between jonas and students and nice rooms. we might have some hope of producing john generations have done

that for you. actually, this is part of that didn't have any karen, i'm going to have to cut you off there, but that is certainly an aspiration. that is a good way to end to show this conversation one that's going to continue here at the stream. that's all the time we have for today. i do want to thank all of our guests today, sir. i, catherine and karen for joining us. any more conversations here at the stream, the of the

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