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hello. welcome to the probably go, i'm so he'll robin. poland has been playing a central role in the wall in ukraine as a vital native bridgehead for supplies to its neighbors. and the destination for millions of refugees. since the end of the soviet union relations with russia has never been gold. the war intensifying entities forced a difficult history of the shape of the european union. and nato has seen the former soviet bloc country become a major nation in western alliances. but at times, relationships have been strained, unafraid, just most retentions boy labor and expense between ukraine in poland, with each calling and the others, and bassett. a. when a polish minister accused ukraine of like ingratitude, intervention ukrainian presents loved him as a lens. k was needed to cool things down. a lot of relations between poland and neighboring valerie sa, seen as being as an all time low. little polish troops are being sent to the border

leaders and will also refuse. min skipped a space violations by military helicopter cruise and say that russian voc bus and these types of threats. poland was also and good by the res, helping african migrants travel to wolf. to postpone an attempt to get into the u. tensions to surrounding ukrainian grain impulse into the e. u. the poland imposed its own grain and ball. okay, after ukrainian supplies into europe since the will began, brought prices down, hitting poland, vital agricultural sector ahead of a polish general election in october. i have been close to wide, medium ball, go to include some fruit and poultry. while united way the u. i lies that ukraine militarily. poland is involved in serious disputes to the use. high is called the european court of justice says post changes to how the judges are pointed over legal. the polish justice minister lashed out calling the european court corrupt

the you is also withholding ninty $40000000000.00 and $8.00 deposited with series dispute safe green energy policies. coal mining and phasing out vehicles with petrol and diesel engines. the strong unity, however, with the over russia seen is a direct threat to poland. washington, i'm not sure that i need to. there are all kinds of hybrid detox right now and i'll board is on the list you any and border on the polish border which we have been seeing for the past 2 years. russia and beller roots are increasing. the pressure on our board is the increasing the number of publications we have to be aware that the number of these publications will increase will cost you in the other 5 minutes as poland is becoming the most pro us european power hostile to russia. so just to assure you that there are existing risks associated with the militarization of poland to which has become the main instrument of the united states. and the russian policy was or announced its intention to build according to the polls,

the most powerful on the, on the continental. in this regard, large scale purchases of weapons has begun from the united states of america. great britain and the republic of korea, including tanks, artillery systems of defense, a missile defense systems. i'm calling about that cross blue light spring in august and will so lily on the stage, the president of the will also institute, a polish non profit, think tank, specializing andrea politics an international and says in the lane is that are assigned to an editor in chief of b, n. e. in tele news thoughts as a business media company focusing on the matching markets. and also joining us from poland capital is me. how about of lc, a senior fellow and managing director at the german marshall fund based a non profit transatlantic organization. and welcome to inside story. we saw the costs out with you a more sol because polling display heading the defense of your when it comes to any

potential. aggression from russia and russia's allies will sort of choose, is by the roots of allowing russian back to bach the troops of threatening in advance on its borders. how well rich should we be? well, this is all depends of what the 100 group will do. the bellows for a number of years, we have no consider bellows as basic. the head, military space of our shop, bell or risk is losing sovereignty. wagner global, he's coming to me car where things are coming. so that he's very worrying and paul, and as you said at these from the front of this coming on taishan with withdrawal shops, given that 90 percent of military age to ukraine goes through poland and, and poland is becoming a strong may to align with spending over 4 percent on defense, and this year manufactured the same question in by late and how,

what should we be about the buildup of russia's allies, you might say on the bellows border. but certainly a, the rest has been using better as a, as a long time for as aggression against ukraine. and of course, in february, last year, the attack from the north side left the blast. but coming through better us down to get the best a short way of doing it. however, it is the post this morning on the russian telegram. charles st check is saying that, look, shank goes actually kicked the buck land troops, alice, because he's refused to pay for them. we're going to confirmation on that story. but again, i think development shapes of unsettled everyone because after the 8 months campaign to take backwards, they've uh, established themselves a reputation of being for us as an effective seitz's. and so having such a hudson ministry for investors has unsettled everybody. poland in particular, which i think is partly much of a sense be dropped the truths. yeah. but again, look, a psycho is, is a, is a bit of a loose kind of, um,

the chances of both of us and him specifically attacking somebody like hold on. i think are very low, but he likes to mix it up. he likes to build up tensions in which he uses in his negotiations with boots and in particular, he has to be useful, screwed to then keeping, uh, uh, on an on his backs of it. so it's, it's definitely useful. it's okay, i'm in the house. certainly agreeing with you on that blessed call service are really also a mall. so is it a novice time for the the thing? cuz in also the politicians, the critics, the support has to try and work out what's going on on. poland bowed as how do you assess the situation at the moment? especially when there was this talk of a build up of troops potentially on the poland. valerie spool to yes on. first of all, thank you very much for the invitation and directly answering your question. well of course the situation is very serious. however, on the other hand, i will rush. i was also suppose to get can 7 days. so we need to think about it as

a reality. however, yes, the situation is very, very difficult. also pull out this spending a lot of money on defense. also investing in, not just the international, the tree equipment, but also our domestic ones that we use the situation to serious. however, we also need to be realistic. and of course uh, let the other before i go back to me, caught about this, how to people, us assess pollings membership of nato. do they think it's working in this particular context of, of the nato countries. also helping poland defendants board as well. i would say that to me till is our security down for and i believe the majority of society would agree with me. so there's no doubt that the bas 2 percent debt to we need to spend on our defense is just the medium and also poland.

so it's encouraging other countries to spend even more me, how can i come to you? i in will. so in your opinion, the russian tactics are changing all day when it comes up just to vog the but the relationship with batteries and with lucas shaking co and the friends the allies walk. wagner is the one minute then this is talk of nuclear weapons. how strong is the relationship where the weak points in the relationship? well, let me 1st just agree with the piano about uh, being just applying to mullens just to just so everyone shows employees. all the data is at all. it is the most of the pro major country that, that we have in europe a g m. s will come up soon with bit poll, showing this as well. so there's no question about the popularity of,

of nato impala. when we look developer who's in russia, again, especially the district to do community the thinkers, the military that politicians are seeing basically connected space. yes. one question. okay, is there? yes. he is the president of of bell. it was because of the piece crime. so give his own people because of he's economic depends on the russia and now because of the presence of eh voc, their group and nuclear weapons funds and cheese territory, we'd really should not consider bellowed was a separate southern country booting. couldn't get rid of what question call if you really wants to get a sense, because the main goal is to remain in the power because that guarantees that he is staying alive. and so he is no longer at any possibility.

far, far, will russian calling bellows to bio skin, any mays, russia, and then to west, it's firmly within the grid of my scope. and that is why, when we see my movers close to our borders, the polar and this is when we get concerned, especially about the hybrid topics and data. but let's come to you invalid. and because it's interesting, the perspective from poland to where you are and the germans will have a very different take on it. but obviously, you know, your news agency, the looks, the whole whole of europe as well as such. i mean, what's the perspective that are about what's going on between the poland and by the russian border as well as i said, i mean these europe is being divided and that border was opened before. and so much is before the war for there was a huge amount of trade between european union and russia. and so the science it started to appear in 2014 and that bought it was wide open. and most of the tri state, there was a, comes now q of trucks pressing it one way or the other too much changed. now is we

have a sort of side borders, become a militarized border. and so much is between, you know, so she has a show, a border with betters and it's recently close to this post of the statements. the ukrainians have massively 45, the product of florida and all that stuff. the 2nd invasion from the know, you know, threatening kit. and i was seeing that the problem is i haven't seen this incursion with the had a cups is the best way to ship everyone up the strength. wow. ok. now, troops being in the, in better versus unsettled people. and now, uh, pulling on this list of minutes, rising them out of the border. and if you remember about a year ago, that was the migrant price display. look a shank that was sending thousands of them last name, at least in refugees across the board of and again, it was just open. i mean people were wondering through the power for us and that's changed. i mean there's now by way of fences and they came out of the forest in front of the fence and this serious gods, but we haven't seen that kind of minutes. rice pull that in europe for whatever

it's 7, something just yeah, i need somebody to and then minus the attention. yeah, i mean that was a separate. there were several issues. opponents going through the by mental model of the is this issue with ukraine in the war and ukraine, us, that's about by, by russia. let's just slightly move on to the relationship of poland and the will, and ukraine and the, to the outside world. it seems of a cozy relationship that both ukraine and coal and have but there are issues between poland and the rest of europe on the different front with the you and the court of justice liliana come to you about they said about jurisdiction about sovereignty, about who really is in charge of poland because when you have that in great and you might say all set in stone, i don't need that and can pull and deal with its neighbors. and it's international partners. this has not been resolved times that between will sole and brussels.

well indeed i would say that the relationship between the she said to work. so as brussels is quite complicated. however, um the, um hm, this, uh, this crisis. so this problem being through this, our system, as you also mentioned has so i would say to dimensions, 1st of all is the political and also the substantive level. so yes, i agree to do the story system. yes. still mean salary forms and the we can also hear from some of you to present of there's some government that i've seen there are some plans to reform is they will when they are a site or cotton c. um, but there's also another complement of it, which is the political they mention on event. and i'll just say last year when uh, slots on the line and visited war. so she had a meeting with, with our prime minister and were a bit ski, and it seems like the, the caustic growth results and to promote maybe next generation found to will come

to poland. however, it doesn't happen. so i believe that you'll be what injustice in power it is possible that poland will not get the money from from the next generation fund. indeed, be, how can i come to you in most of this is a good issue that is grinding on as poland heads towards a general election. and yet some on the list. and if you read what's on the internet and the people that we're speaking to, i'll just say era about this, the incumbent political party has been very good at demonizing. it's all position and demonizing minority groups full in the space of saying this is the natural suffering t, a national security. yes indeed that that is the argument, but it is very firmly rejected by all the european, i mean, talk rather than you the legal authorities that is really knows indeed that on the

issue that the changes that the government introduced in the, in the legal system fall within the rule of law, as, as, as other european countries, it is, you know, that the issue and this conflict has to be almost resolved as we did y'all not pointed out, but it was in fact indeed a who didn't sign the law president coming also from law and justice with the inside assigned to loaded with correct some of the biggest uh, issues with, with the rule of law. so i think there is a, there's relatively little expectation that a, if law and justice wins the upcoming for parliamentary election on october 15th, that need to be done. that fixes the issues of her level. i think that our

expectations that poland can begin to a longer process. the fact of going back to the traditional rate system that has a level of independence uh only under a different government. and then the current flow was that happens a lot. well, here's what we had talked to agency, i mean ben r as in late in the president bite and was actually in poland earlier in the me to expound single extolling the virtues of freedom and democracy and around the anniversary of the invasion of ukraine. also to have sell at the right time, you might say this system comfortably doesn't with the us having to make alliances, as some might see with countries that have all the questionable and wouldn't say domestic internal politics and issues. i think human rights and it's not just poland, it's tucking into you as well. and then tell you that i mean the wheat b a, b and e cover the inside race. and then we see this in a reason of context. and i think button has to go that and give that message

because bowden needed reminding about the democracy problem in the judicial reforms . effectively giving the government the, the, the moving costs the a to i find that compression because which is supposed to have separation left, one of the judiciary and the government. and the kind of did a very interesting call several years ago and found that there's a, a bad news phone line that runs down the middle of europe. and so the opponents boats into the european union membership because economically is what fantastically well and so much this problem get some 9000000000 euros and make destruction funds and put that in context. you know, before the war you probably used to get 3 been in so it's a lot of money and pulling has flourished in 2008. it was the only country in europe that didn't go into recession, but they haven't really bought. seems to provide use of the project. and again this sold line of values if you look to the, to the east, opponents on that side of it. it is to these,

most of the traditional in this case can catholic conservative values and the rest of the senior and also the conservative values with family is the most important where it's much more sort of authoritarian, top down kind of a administration rather than the liberal democracy that we have here in jamaica, for example, i'm not associated problem piece of work in progress. i don't really have any place . i mean, i'm the traditional may be part of it. yeah. really. how do you want to come in that a i guess why i just went through it says some parts of your speech because you're talking that we didn't imply, you know, your pin values. i want to use this kind of words because colin's will come millions of refugees and it says award phenomenal. and because we didn't create any of the refugee counts as for example, in germany date. but we welcome all of the refugees to our houses. so we gave our hearts to, to, to refugees. and i would say to me,

didn't to imply your pin values because you'd have 10 boxes, for example, say directly. and that's what the poland, exactly show, not just the political leaks, but the whole society. well, thinking of that, let's close back to the how in the wall. so, of course, you know, while sort of the global community looks at poland, reputation right now is, you know, he raised the vocal support of the military support that giving to ukraine. they're all underlying tensions between the 2 countries that has been there for many, many years, hundreds of years. if not, you know one mens, hey ro such as a button dara full ukraine is nothing more than a monster for poland and these issues rumbled and do they know this is why the presence of lensky had to get involved recently as you're absolutely right. that pole in the new cranes have very difficult history and we have just credit 80th of any verse rate of boeing must occur where lots of poles as well as you cranes have

lost their life. but the war brought nothing less than almost the miracle i would say in terms of the depth of the whole issue, praying reconciliation as the on that point it out polish society welcomed your opinion, what are the store homes and then she's truly has really become a huge, true cause from time to time. but i cannot imagine as going back to difficult political relations caused by history that we have seen before the war. again that there a bit of conciliation between our 2 countries is reversible and nothing that i would expect 2 years ago before the before the war started show what was history might not be echoing in the same way that what's happening is resonating right now . liliana in terms of the grain deal because there is friction between ukraine and

poland of a cheap ukrainian grain heading through poland into the european markets. not so upsetting. poland and it's agriculture will finances and balance. i mean, how is this a little getting down to the mainly because poland is involved, god, ukrainian grain suddenly until mid september thought may continue, and that might upset the you well, i will take no, just a problem. i'll pull that up. but all of the eastern or central eastern european countries, because our main branch of the economy is indeed a agriculture. and he has indeed dishonest. so we're quite upset to be just dealing with prices over the ukraine. m green. so yes, in this case, uh, the interest stole from you, sir. so it has won over the interest of the customers. however, i believe that we will need to in the future a small smile,

some kind of interference. so the commission to solve the issue, especially if you're thinking about the future acquisition. also ukraine, enter your opinion. you know, banks, i bring you in for ballot and how much does an issue like great impulse impact on domestic politics. so to me, when you're heading towards the general election, and this is a hot topic at the moment in poland. exactly. now this is a very interesting topic and it says quite a lot about the complicated and difficult relations everyone has hit. and so much is ukraine now is completely almost almost completely bankrupt, and it's only hot, con sienna is the grand expos, with the naval blockade in the back. see, and the glass in greenville. but it's been trying to get as much grain as it kind of by train going west, which arrives in the publish pockets and as living on a set that collapse the local market and upset the local farm is. and so the government in, in poland band, it blocks, but this is colon ukraine's biggest supports. and yet at the same time,

they cut them off from the only source money that they can at the moment in trade. and the reason why is obvious is because the election is coming up and the agriculture love is extremely big and powerful. so how does the 1st make a change? a choice between the good thing is that i am ukraine and dealing with domestics issues, winning and election. i name the dns, so this is on its own agenda or it's, it's selections and i see this hook. i'm trying to the point where the ukrainians band should the exports to problem which again hold on is a big uh, invoice or if you're printing sugar and that was the problem the solution um hold on sauce the you for $1000000000.00 and compensation. so i think that's what's gonna happen is throw some money at it. but it, um, you know, under pins that the, the western western europe wants to support ukraine the same time it needs or wants to limit the amount of economic damage that's being done to its own economies. and

so this will kind of go on for too long it's, it's already trust senior, a lot of money as opposed to my mission. and then the honest at that phone and in particular starting a lot of sort of verity and the rest of europe has been a bad say a lot of pain to the site if you cry. and that, that so you are being, by the way, you know, so let me just jump, it wouldn't become just ask him, then how important is it to try and restart the grain, dale and try and get you might say russia on board a dress of rushes concerns that it's products with being sold internationally. and then it also questioned whether the grain that was leaving ukraine was going to pour at nations around the world. it may be a good question that wants to take on the way that subject is being discussed in poland. to, well russia's naval locate of the black sea of these because the huge river cushions in uh, uh, throughout the global saw, especially when it comes to hunger. and that could be fixed. that easy by

present putting guess, signing the grain deal again. solved is, grain can be transported through palling through romania, but it will not replace the parts of the black sea. so here are the responsibility for the from there. just slides very clearly. what let the me to put the, i do think that will need to find a longer term solution because ukraine's agriculture of policy, i put a culture effectively solar that age would require a huge changes to the piano, a culture policy, it each will when ukraine will become do you members, so this is something that will be rattling quits for the, for the years to come. certainly throughout the you or we'll come to the end of all programs. and liliana allows you the last question in terms of the relationship now between poland and ukraine and poland and the you, in your opinion,

what is of most value right now to poland as politicians. so you might say sell that political position as they head towards the general election in the old and this is all going to ramp up as the weeks progress. well, i would say that the relationship of poland to an even relationship between pulling in a new crime are completely different things. relationship between pulling on a new crane a strong and it will be strong. color will be support team. ukraine. it is broken. ukraine has will not stop our relationship with you is something completely different. so i wouldn't even buying those things because you crash independence you credit. so bear me p as also our goal. an interesting conversation, i'm sure we will be revisiting again in the coming months. has been great to have you on this edition of inside story liliana snatch been at ease and we have but i'm not escape. thank you for joining me for inside story. and thank you as well for watching this addition. you can see the program again any time by visiting our

website at ologist ever dot com. and for further discussion guys, well facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. now you can also join the conversation on twitter handle virus anastasia inside story. for me, so robin and whole team here, thanks for your time and your company the the focus on which is the that it won't be attending the summit in south africa with an international warrant out for the rest for suspected war. fine. can he travel

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