to indonesia, it is essentially mostly dry there was a time when the band go rid of clouds were enough to sustain life in the northern color. how he does it all year round. 3 for that change, we spoke to 3 men in different parts of it. i'll come down, go down to the bay face drought. one of the animals and men made right in the tungsten fight for survival risk in it all. books one out just what's behind the complex deal between iran and the us get rod will release american prisoners in exchange for a ring and citizens detained in the us and access the billions and present funds. could that pay the ways of the revival of a nuclear deal? this is inside the

hello and welcome to the program and several venue, a months of in direct negotiations between bitter enemies. the us and iran of culminated in a complex agreement that includes a prisoner exchange. 5 americans detained intent. ron have already been moved to house arrest. and in time, a number of the radians jailed in the us will be freed. perhaps most significant is the release of billions of dollars and frozen they range and assets. us sanctions remain in place and mistrust is still an issue for both parties. but the deal is being described as a significant political achievement, and some analyst suggested could lay the groundwork for revisiting the 2015 nuclear accord. so we'll disagreement lead to another one. and with the 2024 us presidential election around the corner,

will it begin to change america's relationship with its long time full? we'll explore these questions with our guest in a moment. first though, this reports by katya lopez hold of you. a deal between long time adversaries. the us center brand have taken the 1st steps and a prisoner exchange steel, a rare, but significant agreement to ron will release 5 imprisoned american citizens, while washington will free several jail during the ins and unfreeze about 6 $1000000000.00. and a rainy and asset runs on funds would be used and transferred to restricted accounts, such that the money's can only use pre amount of training purposes, which as you know, is permitted under our section. so the deal was to reach despite height intentions between to run and washington, particularly in the gulf region. the u. s. has deployed thousands of

troops to monitor shipping lanes and deter what it describes as harassment from toronto. other disputes include around support for russia in the war and ukraine, sanctions and proxy conflicts in him. and the symbolism is, is clear which is that the ron was able to get his money back, its own money. it was a, it's been able to trust important countries in the region, especially potter and online. and it's, it's doing a bit of a gas using it's leverage between the united states and other major powers, like russia and china. now there's speculation that the prisoner exchange deal could revive negotiations on the 2015 nuclear deal for now, the white house says it's not a priority. we are not in talks with iran on the return to the jcp away the nuclear deal. and that's,

that's not on the agenda right now. under that landmark deal to run agree to limit as nuclear developing program in exchange for the lifting of economic sanctions. but in 28 teams, former president donald trump woods drew the us from the agreement and reinstated sanctions relations have been strain since. and mistrust remains. while he's gone off to any about the us as never negotiated with around based on trust and the signing of the around nuclear deal is not a product of trust. the run nuclear deal will only be revived when the us is ready to return to the deal responsibly and to show around that it will abide by the agreement seriously. us president joe biden has expressed interest in renewing the deal, but that could pose a fresh set of challenges for both sites, particularly ahead of next year's us elections. katia lucas with again for insights story. the. okay,

let's get toward this intent run is ford is on the head of american studies at the university of denver, ron, you specialize in us? iran relations in washington dc is in the gar mark positive, and it rang and american journalist host of the around podcast and in birmingham. in the u. k, we are joined by scott lucas, a professor of us and international politics at the university college dublin. and the editor of e, a world view and online news sites, so warm, welcome to all of you. what i want to start with you. what was the 1st thing you thought? when you heard of this deal, when you heard that it had come together, a good deal was supposed to happen the few months ago. and it was about time. i think the last time this was supposed to happen. united states decided by the administration decided not to go to it for different reasons, which i'm not, i is why it didn't happened last time,

but i'm happy that it's happened. we have a number of families, 5 in it, on 5 in the united states that have quite a top feed. they're going to get their loved ones back in the ends are going to get some of the money that belong to them. back and country is like south korea and iraq to especially rockstead savannah facing difficulties paying get on back for the things they got from either on or going to be able to clear those accounts. i think besides these ideas and those are many channels. i think that we have those 2 countries that are also happy to see this, these look through the girl. why does this deal happen now that well, the negotiations had been in the making for quite some time even um, the past couple of years. this was one of the priorities for the biden administration to at least get the prisoner as the american present our home.

but we know when the policy started between town and washington with this administration at the beginning, there was a few months of overlap with the previous administration and tyler on then they hit the election season in iran. new administration came who was more reluctant to do outreach with the united states. there have been instances when we hear from either side that the deal was close, including last year, around the same time, august when families were feeling or getting signals that a deal is imminent and then it didn't happen. there seems to be a blame game going on by both sides. is blaming the other for preventing this from happening each suggesting that this was a priority for them. they wanted it to happen. um, but, but we are where we are as complicated. it is a complicated deal when we look at the mechanism of the logistics of how many countries in parties and so many moving parts are involved to this day. the

american prisoners are not free. they are in a hotel room, each separate hotel rooms in ty ron, um and so it's in the mccain, but it did happen. it was a priority for both sides. and again, those are guess also sad families and loved ones and the prisoners themselves who had been going through this very difficult ordeal for many years. some of them are finally going to be the united. you're right. that it is complicated. the mechanism of video, we'll get to that in just a 2nd, but 1st i want to bring in scott with this question. you know scott, when we see any deal between 2 conflicting parties, you, you can't help but wonder, well, what's in it for each side? and on a surface level, this one's pretty simple, right? both countries get detained, getting nationals back that were detained, and the other country. and for a run, it's even clear or what they get from it. they get billions of dollars that they badly need is there. that's the surface level reading of it. is there something

else? is there something perhaps we're missing from that reading? you know, i think i see me reading, but we need a bit of context of i think it's important to know that the reason why this deal did not happen a few months ago, despite being negotiated for a couple years was and we need to be honest and forthright is because i, ron took another american hostage, one of those 5 who was released yesterday recently seized. now whether that was a particular branch of the iranian government, like revolutionary guards going, i'll script. and so using someone what the wrong was trying to get, we're leverage, we're not sure. but it does highlight the to as it were entry point factors here for the 5 ministration. they want to get some they don't want the talks about a project for the program to just stagnate and fade away, because otherwise you will have the risk of confrontation, hey, you know, it's not over heading not only over a wrong, but over the region. and so to get the prisoner release,

it was sort of the escalation stuff that says perhaps you can open the door to now not get an immediate settlement on the new for issue. but at least we get to re up to the top from the ron inside it simply the economic prices. i mean, let's just be blown about it. uh, it wants current say it must have been value since last september. now its been stabilized for next step by the central bank, but inflation is still high. officially, it's 40 percent unofficially. it's much higher, unofficial items. you have serious problems with production and infrastructure that are going on in the country. and of course, you have the overlay of the nationwide approach since last september solar rami cannot continue to hold up completely and just say a great site and great site. and at some point they needed to try to strike a deal, especially because the wrong way, a few months ago was what role normalized was, sell your radio, what mobilize what the earl go. we don't have to necessarily look to the americans

if that works, but saudi arabia has talked back. there are further costs with these riley's, in other words, the kaleidoscope of middle eastern politics. iran could not simply turn its back on some form of negotiations with the americans for that. is this the result of what some people call hostage diplomacy on the part of iran, which is the notion that iran, the country around the government will imprison american nationals. and sometimes you see it with british nationals or other nationalities as well. and then use them as bargaining chips to obtain something. is that what we're looking at? you know that a few facts that so i think we can be certain that by the 1st fact is that this year is the 7 units and the rest of the, of the 1953. cool. let me know that the c i a or go to organize that cool or to say to the cool and being. busy that they're going to eat on me and stuff and watching for the c i a that's how the c i a to be able to go through that. so that's

a that's a fact. let me know that many times how this flies in other countries. i don't think there is any country in the world that is not a hosting, a number of i'm any kind of spice. some of them are probably watching your program right now. and we know that the united states has high side policies towards the uh uh, i don't know if the people who are in prison or in the hotel rooms right now. i don't know if the size or not. but i know that the c i a has been focusing on the vaughn and russia in china for many years. and they do have assets satisfies in these countries. but the whole spectrum and you're not quite answering my question flooding scott, i see you shaking your head. i'll get to you in a 2nd. so the question is, and you know what, the critics of the range and governments say, right? they say iran deliberately captures and jails people that they can then use as

bargaining chips. that's what hostage diplomacy is. it refers to, do you're on the run, does this or disagree? i can read that to you on was to make sure that we don't have, i know i know that it can cool like we had 70 years ago. and we know that we have 5 either on the, as at the sitting and i'm going to be can james, generally the victims of the i fishing expeditions, accused of violating sanctions. that's a legal and under international law a. so if you call the people who are in hotel rooms, they knew on hostages, what can be called those iranians sitting in america and jane hostages. you know, the free, the 5 to one side is the terrorist of the other side. so we can play with this terminology is we can demonize the army and government to the west that media outlets are very good at that. but that's not going to it is all done. i think

scott, i think i suspect you might have a few things to say about that. i love, i find that our list and as i analyst here, i think we have to be respectful in terms of what is happening and not play the versions regarding these people who are held political pressures. the 1st of all, there is a history of c. i a intervention in various countries around the world, including the wrong data. something is in a rush right of the crew that was backed by the c i, britain is that my 6 is occurring this week. but you don't use that many years ago to try to justify taking innocent people and throwing them at the detentions, for a year. your raw has never presented any evidence. i got to see i'm not in the logic there while executive who was seized in november 2015 and who now but finally be released. they never produced any evidence against his father box or u. s. staff who was in the seventy's when he was in prison for years. they never

presented any evidence publicly, actually not charging the business manager right now. now finally be released. they have not presented evidence against father for nationals who were still being held in the wrong and presence. so let us be honest here. yes, political prisoners were taken and now it is not the same as the iranians there for the president of the united states who may be in this deal. we can criticize the fact that these are audience were jailed and present, convicted or sanctions violations by questioning whether the sanctions were justified. but those people receive due process, an american court in a transparent way. and the people who are really rotten and presents who are held as pawns, whether it be for the release of money, the lifting of sanctions or some type of uh, advantage. and then finally, gotcha. sions. they were taken as innocent people who had no connection with the us until it serves the guard. when you see iranians, the re and government releasing american nationals that they had charged with it

either and spying espionage. i mean, it's all pretty similar when, when you look at the charges. what does that tell you? does that suggest that american economic sanctions worked because they forced air ons hand? or what does it tell you? i don't think the us policy, especially economic sanctions, broad economic sanctions, as something that has worked purse the mean depends on how you define work. cheryl edge has put a lot of pressure on ordinary iranians on the lives of ordinary iranians, but hasn't really brought policy change, brought big policy change domestically, regionally hasn't changed around as us, and the region hasn't changed their own outlook towards the was the united states. europe has a changed around position. these are the roches attack on your train. not really. i mean, this is, this is an important deal, but we have to remember this is

a small deal. this is just a, i see it as a limited action, a prisoner swap, an exchange of a few prisoners on one side and the other. and then on blocking off frozen assets, the us is not inside changing any policy when it comes to actually cannot extension . the funds will be transferred to by tax and will only be used for non this junction payments. so if you need a variation within that expense which is already allowed, which is already allowed on their us law, so us is not changing policy, iran is not changing policy. yes. and humanitarian gesture has happened. it can also be seen and use as a goodwill gesture for both sides. i'm hoping this would be a preload to more understandings and more agreement. and moving away from a brewing conflict, which we see between the 2 side bomb more the escalation, when it comes to our nuclear program, us clustering towards the country. but this is just

a 1st step and the going back to a question. i don't think the policy of maximum pressures that started by the previous administration and then the continuation of these quibbling, economic sanctions, has achieved any major policy goals except for bringing more missouri to origin area. right. yeah. well, that's really interesting and fun or we completely move on from this, from that topic. what the car was mentioning earlier on the, the, the mechanism of the deal. can you please briefly run us through how this all works, especially the past that the money is going to have to take? because i think a lot of our viewers will say, oh, well, easy, you know, you just, what prisoners, what prisoners release money pressed on a button is done. then when you start reading the details, it's actually a lot more complicated. it even powerful countries, whether it's the us, whether it's mediators find it hard to get something like this done. it takes time . you know, it shouldn't be that complicated because the americans claim that food and medicine

is exempt from sanctions. so if food and medicine is exempt from sanctions, you should be able to get that dollars. that's a positive in south korea and banks. and there are 2 bags and buy food on medicine with those dollars. that shouldn't be that complicated. shouldn't be transferring these minus 2, so it's the answer and explain the answer. to us please explain to financial circuit, because right now we're talking about money that is mostly in south korean banks and south korean currency. and then it's got to end up through a series of permutations is going to end up in, in euro's or dollars in a guitar. you can just explain the process to us. you know, you're on sold only 2 sides code $9.00. so the money to initiate the lease was in dollars that it isn't, they have to task, you know,

change that money into sites $30.00 on the funds and then take it to so it's and then and then take it to the cost of it is the fact that the united states is lying about sanctions, policies, the u. s. claims that food and medicine is exempt. but the major problem is that the balancing sanctions don't allow us on to use the others to be able to buy food that made this sense. so the have to tell us the that's money to different kind of this is different banks and all the complications that we have. and this costs, knowing this very fact that the united states is punishing, you know, i mean, the people that food, that medicine to come to the over 85000000 people is expecting us to trust the judicial system in the united states and demonize the judicial system in the you are the evidence of what these people did was presented to

a judge in either on and the judge you need on is known this or no more as a judge in the united states. and if, if you don't accept that, then you are engaging in the audience, how does i might, i think the scott knows what the audience under simmons. i think a number of our viewers do as well as got right. a right of response for the 1st stop it with the diversions like oriental, the that everybody in that somehow everybody's biased. if you have people that you're holding in your presence, who haven't gotten a fair hearing? now, let me actually answer the question regarding what is being done under this agreement regarding the money that you're wrong as good as it is being converted into your own. and it's being put into categories, financial institutions to be overseen by the guitar in government. the,

according to those who are close to the negotiations, and that means that you're watching not freely take out that money to use it on any item that it was to purchase that it wishes to invest in. it has to be for us to make our pointed out non sanction items, what food and medicine humanitarian. the reason for that is, is that the us fear that if it gave a run at open access to these assets before getting a reduction of the nuclear program, you're all can use the money, for example, for military activities that can use it for the revolutionary jars. they can use it for other purposes, rather than few matching man turn action. now you may agree or disagree with that, but that's the documents that's been placed. what's interesting here is, is that while the central bank governor has acknowledged the testing arrangement, one of the mr. is bodies, our colleagues, dr randi from the university of turn wrong? because of the fact the english language spokesman for the leadership is actually

denied that arrangement. he's saying that iran has understood her access alright to any of the funds under this agreement. so there's a contradictory message going on, even now between the iran folks, people as to what exactly the money is and how it would be handled. even though it's pretty clear on the western side what the arrangements are. there's one really key thing i need to get into and we have just a few minutes left to go. or you can help us with this. and anything that happens between iran and the us. you know, the headline question really for anyone watching the news as well. where does this leave us in terms of reviving the nuclear deal? does it get us closer to a new nuclear deal does is get us further away. where are we on that sliding scale? your answer a while i single bite in administration is too close to election, sees done this for a new key, a deal coding quote at this point. but a new clear understanding may be something that can be in the horizon after this understanding or this agreement more of

a nuclear de escalation. it's something that we know the administration has been pursuing as part of their negotiations with iran to try to convince ron to de escalate or halts or pause the expansion of the new car program in exchange for what the united states can offer in terms of the sanctions relief or the lesser and position of future sanctions or the, the less enforcement offering sanctions. i don't know if that's something that's a possibility. the past 23 years have proven very, very difficult, at least for this administration in this time and the administration into wrong to come to arrive at what i see again as a limited understanding to them 3 years to arrive to where they are and the nuclear file is even more complicated, but i think this is a 1st step of goodwill gesture that could open doors. and i know that by then

administration for a fact that they're not looking for a war per se, or a conflict with iran. now whether you sleep, walk in to a conflict with a different story, whether the conflict is brewing without you really wanting. it is a different story and the life of diplomacy usually leads to more conflict and more attention. so, more understandings and more diplomatic engagements. agreements would, would move them away from a brewer and conflict for our building on that point. do you see this and, and the girl was making the point that this is a pretty narrow deal. right. on a pretty narrow set of issues. do you see this as potentially baby steps building towards a bigger agreement between the us in iran or it could that by the administration could $310.00 to the new could be an agreement on the 1st day of the by then presidents the same. ready you return to the agreement on the client lender quit sized kind of quotes in the us, the political system. the new president cannot verify the executive orders of the

previous president then by the bank would do that with the executive or that strong pad with regard to the new to the eviction. but she refused to do that to you if he's refusing to return to the agreement and a half years after that his presidency and the john kennedy, the national security council. the spokesman is saying yesterday that they are not going to negotiate, that they're leaving the negotiating table when it comes to that new to the that i could even on the side shows that you have taught take a lot of really good because i'm there, lucian, 20 to 31, all these sanctions were supposed to go all the way and the trunk and leaving the agreement. the united states brought the sanctions back. and this whole program that we have to the we shouldn't have because of these sanctions. and that's supposed to be that the united states is punish. and so countries like south

korea and all that for the engaging economics, you leave it to you on line 18, you end is lucian. 20 to 3100 nights in the states is a permanent member of the security council. so not only why they think that you have it as a solution to publishing other countries that are trying to follow the solutions. and for the summer, i mean, you might have changed them to sit and defend us. foreign policy in this matter is an indication that the human rights issue is not a concern. if someone was really interested in human rights issues, that that person would be interested in human rights of 85000000 get on. all right, well, we're gonna have to wrap it up here. that's all the time we have it today, but i'd like to think all i guess the joining us today slot is. 2 and they got more positively and scott lucas. thank you all for being with us and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, that's alpha 0 dot com for further discussion. good. our facebook page that's facebook dot com, forward slash

a inside story. you can also joined the conversation on twitter or handle at a inside story from me several then. yeah, and the whole team here and go home flights and i'll just wait

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