and attempts to challenge and understand the ideas that mobilize use around. so we're in south africa, it's the women who are at the forefront as the will continue ration, we must never, ever get tired of developing resistance strategies. and the just ignited passions to stand up and fight generation change on l. g 0 as rush of pull the plug on the wind. now for additional reports, i must go, may have stopped funding the most scenary group plan would that leave most goes in for world wise. once the future of his private army base is inside store the hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's, a down. britain's ministry of defense is saying it's possible that crimes and may

have decided to end funding the wide number scenary group. for years russia had denied the existence of the root level load and the connections to it. but the organizations attempted march on moscow in june shed some light on the relationship between the kremlin and wagner. you see, at the end of june, the russian president spoke about how wagner had received a $1000000000.00 from the state. now the position of that tree says the split between moscow and wagner is growing. so why would any move against the fighting forces? finances, leave it. why would it leave russia's interest in hot spots worldwide? will explore those questions with on, guessed in a moment, but 1st, this report from castillo has already on they were hired to help russia slightest war and ukraine. now, the wagner mercenary group may be dealing with its own financial battle. britons defense ministry says it's possible. moscow was no longer funding the private army,

particularly after his leader, took any precaution littlefield, mutiny in june against russia's military leadership, probing questions. the 40 of president prudent try, who has come up without moscow's backing. the private military is likely looking to downsize and restructure its finances. going to bellow, roosters, perhaps part of that plan. i can not give you a clear answer about whether uh the future of wagner lives here or there. i will say this at present. wagner is not fighting in ukraine elements the wagner have, in fact moved. developers. wagner set up a basin bella roof last month, reportedly hired to train local troops, neighboring poland thinks it's a ploy to the stabilize the region and spill into its territory. it's deployed thousands of troops to the border with more on the way it shouldn't be too good to be. we have to be ready for any scenario in the poland batteries board,

and that's why we have decided to move the army closer to the boat to scare away the aggressor so that it doesn't their attack opponent african nations have long been a source of money for the wagner group, many believe both russia and the private army, will try to take advantage of the instability in the share following the recent crew. the group is most active in central african republic, libya, molly and sudan, all of which have fragile relationships with the west. is often provided security services and parent military assistance and instead of money, sometimes it's been paid with access to gold mines. i did the good news as far as our collaboration with the wagner group, we've had talks with russian authorities and we've discussed the support we've been receiving for years. that support has enabled the central african republic to make progress in terms of security. and it must continue. that's all i can say about

that. political influence is perhaps another factor for years prudent has use of factor mercenaries to promote russia's foreign policy abroad, seemingly denying direct involvement. now, leaders in africa and elsewhere may be forced to choose between rushes leadership or the support of the veterinary group. katia, little piece of the again, for insight story. the. well, let's bring our guests into the show. we have joining us from london, patrick barry, a defense and security specialist at the university of bof in moscow. so gay ma call for a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin and director of the institute of political studies in moscow and bombing and stuff and wolf, professor at the university of birmingham and specialist on post conflict, state building and more countries. i'm one welcome to all if i could stop and with patrick. so patrick,

the british ministry of defense says it's possible the criminal is decided to when funding for the whitening group. how much actual evidence do we see of that? the yeah, it's an interesting one and thanks for having us on the show ad defends intelligence, which is a part of the ministry defense as it is realistically possible. so using their language basically that helps. and in the area by 40 to 50 percent. so they aren't sure uh from, from using their sources. well, what we have seen in terms of some of the contracts and other open source for boarding is progressive is by her group, obviously for the status for being to shad supplying and in the earlier years. uh, with these catering business and also then increasing that business a right brochure, particular with contracts and the ministry of defense to feed the ocean are all we have seen since some more started was a lot of complaints on a lot of a stage of the food from conscripts and such,

turning up i complaining about the lack of food or the quantity of food that they were given immediately after the rebellion in june. excuse me is we can call that potentially the we starting to see reports that those administrative, russian ministry defense coach, the taser in contrast to go. so. 6 you can see that in the day they gave him back and forth between the m o d and the back bedroom. but out the rebecca had asked me to push the precautions, business interest from the ministry to fast. so that's one example of the evidence that we have from open source. all right. okay. so gay, is that the general picture that you're seeing? does it look like the russian state is beginning to come back and end? it's funding til bikes now. uh i see because uh uh uh, but your uh good will be, uh, or grandma uh, you know,

uh the free is, uh, uh, just a forward it's uh, as the best prime admitted to the group i am, zillow, understands is that price will be best. uh to that same died. uh, as far as the way that you put them through uh is that you currently have a war is a bundle or was it by sport? uh there's no just uh, uh, to back back when it's not the important stuff is that instead of just from the point of your channels, but i'm just very important. instead of just bear in general, try russian. i'm in need of time to repair. uh, east defense line against the price. it gives you a chance. i check for a few canyon. i'm going to get your thoughts on it, or united states, a name and a box. now, do these quotes yeah. does that or have somebody and maybe an important

role as them, and they're going to know as that you're getting it from the goals i use. i'm kind of put in bed and i and that he's created to talk for a few days. so i've actually gone without, i need to just simple to say uh, search, uh uh, you know, people correspond to that the most uh, uh, 80 percent of them not getting those boxes at the time of the special uh, troops to save their and also to use them as a ukrainian i finish them over the age and also create new people, homes at preston, for american. that is, you know, so to use them use their and the guns because talk about, that's good. but the point i was is, do you see any train that's the kind of indication now that the russian state is ending, solve its contracts and funding to walk now. uh no.

uh is it, uh, is this, uh, find the financial support decrease but not the ups store because it actually on uh, government file just to re, i've done that as i was going to do next. magic the mozambwe and to provide a grade. and the same as equal the use of different kind of asian tops. okay, we'll pick you up later on the point of reorganizing. but coming to stuff on is a clear that the kremlin has actually decided what to do with the white not. and it's lead the progression the, the reason i asked that is if you look at some incidents that have happened since june, at one point we saw a far as he's right, the home of the wife and the boss. and they seized a lot of money. but then they would tell them the money $111000000.00 were told, was it back and forth. i don't think it's very hard to judge by the crime is

actually decided what to do is model on zone me that would require a level of intelligence that certainly is not available on open sources. and i think what we need to bear in mind too, is that regarding the business plan that she has built over the years, extends far beyond bar. uh and so just to use, the precaution potentially still has 4 of 14. so what was the bach nice sort of the headline news if you will, and it has been for, for many months now. but at the same time, the group is an extra cost on actual companies show companies that precaution has to. ready over the years, so it is also very important for pointing in terms of dealing with the essential spreadsheet that has been imposed on. and so actually getting stuff in to rush on increasing the also depends on the types of business and piles of people like big goals in house built. so even if we see if they face that kind of stuff,

anything he's too valuable to completely eliminate. so again, i mean this is very hard to judge because it's not entirely clear how much control the crumbling, what anybody cruise to the criminal could rust from big o and all of the brands office operations. or i would certainly say that the very fact that because in still is a life and seems to have a certain degree of freedom of movement, would indicate that he still has significant going to the kremlin. that puts and has decided that he is relocating road. all right, that we don't have any wall on the show who is very close to progression, but we do have still a guy who was the public spokesperson, full, blinding me posing and close to the kremlin. so maybe we can ask you from your perspective in your understanding so, okay, why hasn't the russian president punished as he put it those responsible for treason was the the announce when he made 2 months later i would see no sign of

that is that because progression has proved to be too valuable because of the networks of commotion and trustees built up. but of course i'm not really will not . uh, because uh uh, as it remains mentioned, this little box that played an important role last year or so, but that's something i had to being punished then i've got because you're not guilty. and i've seen kids was the subject areas. it's in pretty good friends and, but i should defense ministers and the most. com to both sides was a little bit guilty a little bit. right. was this the show? so it was not that bad in the case, the rest and i thought it was the so good help us to understand who did vladimir putin being then when he said he's going to punish those who are trees. and this, if he wasn't talking about wagner or per goshen. uh, you know,

beams out when i was going to go back to that uh 5 just moved to the most. what was it important to give strong political? uh uh, you know, what's funny about sir, is this idea, and would you me, off the to where i could have been, uh, decides that said the uh, 90 percent. those are going to be a change in probate going on. and it will stay till 5. you can, you know, of build a bunch of the concerns we'll say, where is pretty good and she is not the district. and also she get a lawyer. okay. um to uh, budget for the kitchen. and i need you to uh, to send it to the concert. it is. it is the assets, well, uh, well chosen, uh, just that. so uh, no citizen, uh tobias is there. uh, what is it is a visa is forgive to be bought through. you and your people are. uh because it's

connie elizabeth kid, what is your face? the big qual, uh, is that uh, not the right one right dentist. so now is this all they have now which controlled by because a little bit under 10 percent from zip code is. all right, let's uh, bring patrick backend. so pantry, what we here from. so again, moscow is that provision isn't guilty of anything. and to the question of, do we see any sign in that in ending or coughing or downsizing the state funding? no, so gay says how does that jell then a very different picture? then what we're being presented with in the west from western source is like the position of that tree of defense. how do we deal those 2 pictures together? a yeah, i think this 2 things going on. first of all is that you know, the, what we can all agree on here to serve. i mentioned it is fine or,

and also you k defense intelligence are much more confident and not part of their assessments. they said it was like a so 55 to 75 percent the 5 years under going every organization and a restructuring. so the next to design is have 90. it is of the funding from the russian stage as being color co completed. their much less, as i mentioned, confidence enough mine we know, but is that the wagner, the russian m of the with priority not getting off. and so there's been a d coupling there. and 2nd, re, to the is to get her goals and the wagner of russia slash ukraine. so to be conflicts. and then i've done that and get them out of there. so some of them have gone up to uh, to better roads. you're not sure exactly. hammond and i tell you what i'm in fulton is state funding then to the wagner group, if this is really going on, if the interest on yeah, open source information that uses suggest that there at least downsize,

in some of the contracts with wagner group is that the flooding, survival of white glove state contracts. i think some of the m o d contracts were for large numbers and therefore quite important. but i think if you look at partner as a global enterprise and a lot of there, and again, this is, you know, i don't have x and sources into this or any special inside. but what we do now is a lot of the deals they caught with the regimes and supporting in africa involving either access to resources in return for providing that services or just cash deals. so that's what i wanted to support you, other machines, but also like further russian interests by providing protection for russian overseas assets like the g r u for example. and how does it seem as i work closely with that, that we don't know the exact nature of that relationship? i don't know. i will be, you know, that will be something for the intelligence services on page. but we know it exist

again in open source. i wouldn't understand, i wouldn't be able to be called to be had much of a monetary value. they get from them. but the whole or i tied to elements and emissions day to, you know, i can understand it's gonna be hard to put a number on this kind of question, but stuck on you did mention wireless network of commercial interests and assets around the world in africa, mines resources is that enough to keep the group afloat regardless of how it's relationship with the russian state goes. and i would imagine so because it's really well before the massive increase in state funding or in some of the numbers that has been floating around and invest the media is that uh so uh, so if the 1st 1215 months of to go and ukraine bos boston may have received all parts of a $1000000000.00 worth in payments. uh,

from that washington state budget. uh, what is the model that false links to the massive increase in the tooth number so. so the requirement campaign that job bought, carried out in russian prisons off the 10s of thousands of on the contractual stuff . and then you was doing that or what was, i mean, whole that was way beyond walking across the school. i mean, uh, so you mentioned, i mean the cross walk, no radius of maybe up to $5000.00 of veterans of russian special services. the 2 notes induced have survived wide roll up before the boy and ukraine. and i would imagine that they will continue to the wife quite role of wick's office, most of the resources that they provide to various african regimes, the protection to what we're seeing as motion interests and so on. plus on sort of the closing touch printing off this more co op poll of ration, but the commercial interest because i think that's the key piece of business. an

implant as a whole is quite rather fluid, but also careful for us to come. so you mentioned that in your reading of the situation, the russian state is insipid, to re organize, wife knows. i think the words you chose that does that include looking for of the alternatives to wagner, all the avenues or tools to extend russian power. uh uh, just for a 2nd cuz then uh uh is this. uh, when i get to uh, using june the minutes before i really go. uh again, i got that's as joseph all successful and uh, i kind of just like the dish. um but that uh was the solution is like i said uh, private group should be use box was all sides and dishes. i people like getting

people. i don't see my letter that says that somebody's use this, i read it, i saw the best on how to do it. what say i and i was a new private groups reach an impressively well reduced by us. i'm going to be on the more they're not connect you to control what was the more i agree and that is possible if you so you, it's the gross as new, private military groups to we don't know, this is not decided this year. what is decided as the source you prior to? i mean it's a good be stronger. it was in process of our mission as a full credit say continue to do what kind of person as a uh, we will be through uh, boxed us anytime you and you said something about the you groups have been north lake. uh yes. uh and i believe so so. so to exist to a border space, uh around most of it's not actually

a bunk bed uh to create something. can you under such conditions? i seem to know what uh, what is the. 2 uh, come to the president was uh no zillow site here. so uh it's me is that right now is it probably means that the letters you mentioned something about 5 concerns about got it opened up at the 5 percent off. i can go back in, i'd be on us by 90 percent stage in the us. what to do was there it sounds like about 4 to 5 bucks a 1000 people as a extremely in progress. oh, is this what you're part of the little part as a how long sounds good to use it. so carlos i should be around are, is a little bit get uh old to guess that was uh, i just, oh, that's a bit too wide for uh, just uh, in the near future as soon as it's still in progress. and we don't see any evidence of that onshore because there's a 1000. yeah. all right, time will tell,

i guess if i can bring patrick back in. so what kind of old ton it is? does the criminal in have in extending its power overseas right now? how important vital is wagner group. now that is a fine thing for us. but also as defining was explaining a, a nexus of commercial interests, a semi reading. this is, it doesn't potentially names the menu or there are other options that are all smaller, less and that's all now little so less capable is the understand the designer at the same sort of network of shell companies know what to i'll head a full in getting and navigating best and sanctions no, they don't. if you look at what's happening and in my reading of this would be to, does that make me fire and it's still very special. yeah. friends, of course, of course, because it's part of the proven and then they're too close. yeah. they're dangerous . so wherever they're,

when they're from their address packers interest and whose interest and the rest of the states allowing, well they align if you put them in by the roots, a contingency of them there to try and the batteries and forces keep tabs on new to shameka and also keep the polls worried that as a great use of 500 resorts as they align if you could tell them, tell them to get there and just do that and start adding for him. and he rebellion down there to potentially open the 2nd front of more instability. and i forget they align if you do the same in the chair. so that is, that's what's going on, you know, and it's where does our interest align, and where are they still useful versus wherever they too dangerous to keep post. that's what's going on. and therefore, i don't actually think there's a mazda, as long as far sale those those missions of you know, for managing rebecca and, and siding with, with the military or talk with, you know, talk, receives in these places. and it's a win win for him as well. the lesson is just don't have them to post. so again, do you think the appetite is growing and some parts of the world full russian

influence full wagon and places like nice. yeah, we've heard, it's been reported that this has qu latest have reached out to wagner. or maybe in areas as patrick was suggesting, like so then to uh, you know, uh ever, we didn't know that the, uh, boxes do use the best uh, privacy and so security to compliment and so we're good to go to us. and one of, or do you know about? and the 2nd i would say you might be more of a matter of opinion, might it not? so again, you might get a different reading if you speak to somebody that tree, unless it looks at some of the wag the operations in ukraine. ah, you know, i've heard this term. it's a little less uh, some people can say, oh, it holds the devils. but uh, what was the degree is that,

is that really professional way to do an excess minutes? it's all. and also it gives you the musical. all right, we're going through in a minute pantry. well that's so they finish out the phone. we'll come back to punch a minute. go go ahead, finish up the thoughts. okay. yeah, yeah. would you use a quote for the stuff you need to? not because we understand more is likely to get off the truck. uh well do, mobs inside. sure. uh lift as a box and because outside to get rid of it, oh, uh, zill awesome. i see that there is a pillow top such as simple uh, printers. not that all right, perfect. go ahead. do you want it to come in? i said you had a slightly different perspective on this. is this? i don't agree. the wagner are the are the best. uh probably the amenities security . got me in the world though. i think that needs challenging to say they have proven themselves, especially in your brain at the rapid rate of growth and their ability to integrate russian ministry systems are given to them by the d. as for middle is the largest

willing to take casualties. but if you are looking at private manager companies from the west, they would have, obviously, i would say, paying for pounds, especially the ones that recruit from special courses. they are smaller, but they would have a higher skilled level of potentially lower profile. and certainly a lower rank order of them, of human rights abuses, etc. all right, let's bring in stuff on does the kremlin have a choice to make it in some areas? if it's true, it's been reported that some areas, some parts of the world are looking for assistance from wagner. they're looking for russian influence. but at the same time, if the criminal has now got some 2nd thoughts about why going off to the whole excursion in june, somebody is going to make some how decisions about how it shapes the vehicles of its future. foreign influence. that's it. okay. i completely agree with the dentist

. i think the choice that the criminal needs to make is what kind of insurance wants to punch. i have to develop the world and how this influenza play out in the mountain. so as we have seen, for example, that the all wheel drive for consulate in st. petersburg at the end of june off, i mean that clearly it was on event. well, sort of rush out, try to project itself as a stabilizing a false false. that would continue over to what would contribute to reading the global souls. it's just generating more disaffected with the congress that international. but at the same time, i think the try quite go to frustrated and actually achieving this kind of insurance, both commercial uh, economic development. but also military is, is not that great if you look for somebody, right, jason, and most of the day off, wagner has been a extra for quite some time in the security situation that has no,

that will improve. so i mean, effectiveness of lock not so if we need to review that soon, executive did the, we'll track record of, of bog know, providing to kind of a great a secure table the door door. and the value is, is they support regimes so very narrow it leads to the congress to entertain that group. this paul, that is all, i suppose, the full phone policy or i'm afraid we all around the times. we're gonna have to leave it then let's think how i guess very much stuff on. so gay and patrick, i'm thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website, algae 0. don't com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. can also join the conversation on x dot com. our handle is a inside story from a sam is a bad and be in time for now. goodbye

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the us is always of interest to people, right? the world, people pay attention to this one here. and i'll just see this very good the bringing the news to the world from here. the, [000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm about this and then this is the news. our life from joe hard coming up in the next 60 minutes. west african nations condemned the decision by new shows. true leaders to prosecute the us to president for treason a why is governor ones the death toll from wild fires and all we could lies from 96,