for the latest news as it breaks the sun later, right? the same problem, different pops up the rally with detail coverage. after the government signed up, he said we meant with a fart, millions of hex, there's problems in this area where this toy from around the world. margaret is do think you're gamble. when they 1st talk in these over crowded, rick, if you both on fits just say is such a long journey as russia and pulled the blog on the winds. now for the short boats, i must go, might have stopped funding the most scenary group. when would that leave most goes in for us world wise? once the future of his private army, this is inside score. the

hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's, a, them. britain's ministry of defense is saying it's possible that criminal may have decided to end funding the wide number scenary group. for years russia had denied the existence of the group level alone any connections to it. but the organizations attempted much on moscow in june, shed some light on the relationship between the kremlin and wagner. you see, at the end of june, the russian president spoke about how wagner had received a $1000000000.00 from the states. now the british military says the split between moscow and wagner is growing. so why would any move against the fighting forces? finances, leave it. why would it leave russia's interest in hot spots worldwide? unexplored those questions with all guests in a moment? but 1st, this report castillo has already on they were hired to help russia slightest war and ukraine. now,

the wagner mercenary group may be dealing with its own financial battle. britons defense ministry says it's possible. moscow was no longer funding the private army, particularly after his leader took guinea precaution. littlefield mutiny in june against russia's military leadership in question. do you 40 of president prudent, who has come up without mos calls backing? the private military is likely looking to downsize and restructure its finances. going to bill a roosters perhaps part of that plan. i cannot give you a clear answer about whether uh the future of wagner lives here or there. i will say this at present. wagner is not fighting in ukraine elements the wagner have. in fact moved developers. wagner's set up a base and bella roost last month, reportedly hired to train local troops. neighboring poland thinks it's a ploy to the stabilize the region and spill into its territory. it's the point,

thousands of troops through the border with more on the way it shouldn't be too good to be. we have to be ready for any scenario in the poland batteries board. and that's why we have decided to move the army closer to the boat to scare away the aggressor so that it doesn't, their attack. permanent african nations have long been a source of money for the wagner group. many believe both russia and the private army will try to take advantage of the instability and these they're following. the recent, the group is most active and central african republic, libya, molly and sudan, all of which have fragile relationships with the west is often provided security services and parent military assistance and instead of money, sometimes it's been paid with access to gold mines. i did the good news as far as our collaboration with the wagner group, we've had talks with russian authorities and we've discussed the support we've been

receiving for years. that support has enabled the central african republic to make progress in terms of security, and it must continue. that's all i can say about that. political influence is perhaps another factor for years prudent has use of factor mercenaries to promote russia's foreign policy abroad, seemingly denying direct involvement. now, leaders in africa and elsewhere may be forced to choose between rushes leadership or the support of the vatican, or group cod. see a little bit so the again, for insight story the well let's bring our guests into the show. we have joining us from london, patrick theory, a defense and security specialist at the university of boss in moscow. so gay ma call for a former public spokesman for president vladimir putin and director of the institute of political studies in moscow and bombing and stuff and wolf,

professor at the university of birmingham and specialist on post conflict state building and was countries one welcome to all if i could stop and with patrick, so patrick, the british ministry of defense says it's possible the criminal is decided to when funding for the whitening group. how much actual evidence do we see of that? the yeah, it's an interesting one and thanks for having us on the show at defense intelligence, which is a part of the ministry defense as it is realistically possible. so using their language basically that helps. and in the area by 40 to 50 percent. so they aren't sure uh from, from using their sources. well, what we have seen in terms of some of the contracts and other open source for boarding is progressive is by her group, obviously for the status for being duty shaft and supplying. and in the earlier years, uh with this catering business and also then increasing that business a rainbow shop, particularly the cops in the ministry of defense to feed the ocean are all we have

seen since some more started with a lot of complaints on a lot of a stage of the food from cost groups and such, turning up i complaining about the quantity of food that they were given. and immediately after the rebellion in june, excuse me, is we could go on a potentially the, we starting to see reports that those the ministry, the russian ministry defense. i called the taser in contrast to go. so uh you can see that in the day they gave him a back and forth between the m o d and the back bedroom, but of the rebecca as being to push the precautions business interest from the ministry to pass. so that's one example of the evidence that we have from open source. all right. okay. so gay is that the general picture that you'll seeing? does it look like the russian state is beginning to come back and, and it's funding til bikes now. uh i see because

that uh but your uh group will be uh, $300.00. uh you know, uh the fee is, uh, uh, this will forward this uh, as the best brian admitted to the group. uh, it was a little more to understand since that price will be professional. uh, to that same type unplug the way. the important rule uh, is that you couldn't give him more. is a bottle or was a box more? does not just uh, uh, to back back. what's not the important stuff is that instead of just from the point of view a chance or what i can do is very important instead of just being uh, in general, tie, russell not in need of time to repair. uh, east defense line j is the price. it just, you just a jack pumped you could. yeah, i mean if you just box it, um its or united states a name and a box now. uh,

do these quotes. yeah. does that have somebody uh, and let me important that that will buy them and they're going to know how's that you're getting it from going from you. so i'm kind of going to bed and uh and uh, you schedule it out for a few days. so i've actually gone without, uh, i need to tell some people to say uh, search. uh uh, you know, people who are most bottled zacks the most uh, uh, 80 percent of them not getting those boxes. they ask for my home, but the type of the special uh, troops saves there and also to use them as a ukraine. yeah, i've finished them all. this is can also create new people homes that anybody assume from it. again, that is, you know, so to use them use their in other gums because talk about, that's good. but the point was,

is do you see any train that's the kind of indication now that the russian state is ending, solve its contracts and funding to walk. now uh no. uh is it, uh, is this uh find the financial support decrease but not the ups store because it actually on uh, government file just to re i've done that. so i was going to jeanette 90 for the book and to provide a grade. and then say i'm as equal the use of different kind of asian thoughts. okay, well pick you up later on the point of reorganizing, but coming to stuff on is a clear, the kremlin has actually decided what to do with why not. and it's lead the progression the, the reason i asked that is if you look at some incidents that have happened since june, at one point we saw a far as he's right, the home of the wife and a boss. and they seized a lot of money. but then they would tell them the money,

a $111000000.00 with told was it back and forth. i don't think it's very hard to judge, but the crime is actually decided what to do is model on zone me that would require a level of intelligence that certainly is not available on open sources. and i think what we need to bear in mind too, is that regarding the business plan that she has built over the years extends fall beyond box. and some of those to use, the precaution potentially still has 4 of 14. so what was the bach nice sort of do dive headline news if you want. it has been for, for many months off, but at the same time, the glue is an extra cost. actual companies show companies that precaution has to do over the years. so it is all the very important for put in in terms of dealing with the sanction, especially that has been imposed on. and so actually getting stop in to rush on

increasing the also depends on the types of businesses and piles of people like big dollars in house build. so even if we see if a basic hi stephanie saying he's too valuable to completely eliminate. so again, i mean this is very hard to judge because it's not entirely clear how much control the crumbling one, anybody cruise to the criminal and could rust from going over the brass off his operations. or i would certainly say that the value factor, because in still is a life and seems to have a certain degree of freedom of movement would indicate that you still has significant value to the kremlin that which and has decided that she has one, okay, being wrong all right, that we don't have any wall on the show who is very close to progression, but we do have so guy who was the public spokesperson full of allowing me to pose in close to the kremlin. so maybe we can ask you from your perspective and your

understanding so, okay, why hasn't the russian president published as he put it those responsible for treason was the, the announcement he made 2 months later with c. no sign of that is that because progression has proved to be too valuable because of the networks of commotion and trustees built up because i'm not really will not. uh, because uh, uh, as it remains mentioned, this whole argument plays important through last year or so. but that's why has it been punished thing uh, because use no guilty. uh, uh, i seen credit was uh, some fault takes me as a business, pretty good friend. and so i should defense ministers and the most. com to both sides was a little bit guilty a little bit right. was this the show? so it was not that bad. in the case, the restaurant, i thought it was the case. okay. help us to understand who did vladimir putin being

then when he said he's going to punish those who are trees. and this, if he wasn't talking about wagner or per goshen you know, it was out when i was going to go back to the fire. just move to say, i'm all sports. was it important to give strong political? uh uh, you know, what if i was to, is this i to, and would you me the to where i could have been, i decided that said this and that you just sent those that are going to be taken from people. and it will stay till 5, you know, of build a bunch of the concerns. we'll stay where it's pretty gorgeous and she is not the district and also to get a lawyer. okay, to uh, budget for the kitchen. and i need you to uh, to send it to the concert. it is. it is the assets well, uh, well chosen. uh,

just so uh no. is there a reason to punish is there. uh, what does it say this is for you to be boxed to you and your people are uh because it's connie elizabeth kid. well, what is your face? the big qual, uh, is that not the right to right dentist. so now is this all they have now? which controlled by because a little bit under 10 percent rooms if it is alright let's uh, bring patrick backend. so pantry, what we here from so gay moscow is that provision isn't guilty of anything. and to the question of, do we see any sign in that in ending or counting or downsizing the state funding? no, so gay says, how does that jell then a very different picture than what we're being presented with in the west from western source is like the position of that tree of defense. how do we deal those 2 pictures together? a yeah,

i think this 2 things going on. first of all is that you know, the, what we can all agree on here it is eric, i mentioned it is fine or, and also you k defense intelligence are much more confident and not part of their assessments. they said it was late fee, so 55 to 75 percent the 5 years under going every organization and a restructuring. so the next to design is have loyalty. it is the funding from the russian stage as being color co completely. they are much less, as i mentioned, confidence in my reading of a is a partner of the russian. i'm of the with priority not getting off. and so there's been a d coupling there. and 2nd, re, to the is to get for the wagner of russia slash you. great. so to be conflicts. and then i've done that and get them out of there. so some of them have gone up to uh, to battery really. you're not sure exactly. hammond, i tell you what i'm in fulton is state funding then to the wagner group,

if this is really going on, if the inside. yeah. open source information that uses suggest that there at least downsizing some of the contracts with wagner group, is that the flooding survival of white glove state contracts. i think some of the m o d u contacts were for large numbers and therefore quite important. but i think if you look at back there as a global enterprise and a lot of there, and again, this is, you know, i don't have x and sources into this or any special insight. but what we do now is a lot of the deals they come with the regimes, they end up supporting in cricket involving either access to resources in return for providing services or just cash deals. so that's what i wanted to support you, other machines, but also like further russian interests by providing protection for russian overseas assets like the g r u for example. and how does it seem as uh,

i'm more closely with that that we don't know the exact nature of that relationship . i don't know. i would, we, you know, that would be something for the internet services on page. but we know it exist again in open source, and i wouldn't understand, i wouldn't be able to be called to be had much of a monetary value. they get from them. but the whole or i tied to them so it should stay to know. i can understand it's gonna be hard to put a number on this kind of question. but stefan you did mention wireless network of commercial interests and assets around the world in africa. mines resources, is that enough to keep the group afloat regardless of how it's relationship with the russian state goes i would imagine so because it's really well the full on the massive increase in it state funding or in some of the numbers that has been floating around to invest the media is that uh so uh,

so if the 1st 1215 months of to go and ukraine bos, boston may have received all of a 1000000000 dollars. whereas in payments uh, from the washington state budget. uh, what was the last step for things to be massive increase in tooth number so. so the requirements campaign that job bought the carry dog in russian prisons off the 10s of thousands of on the contractual stuff. and then you was doing that or was, i mean, all of that was way beyond walking of us before i mean, so you mentioned, i mean, the cross walk know radius of maybe up to 5 thousands of veterans of russian special services. the 2 notes induced have survived wide roll uh before the boy in ukraine, and i would imagine that they were gonna continue to the wife quite role of wick's office with bruce and every services that they provide. scenarios african regimes, the protection to what we're seeing as much the interest sense on plus on sort of

the closing touch printing of this more of a poll information but the commercial interest. because i think that's the key piece of business implant as a whole is quite rather fluid, but also people for us to come. so you mentioned that in your reading of the situation, the russian state is insipid, to re organize, wife knows. i think the words you chose that does that include looking for all the alternatives to wagner, all the avenues or tools to extend russian power to uh, just for a 2nd. cuz then uh uh, is this a private through uh use in general that minutes before i really go. uh, again, i got this as joseph, all successful and uh, i kind of just like the dish. um, but that uh was the social is like i said,

uh private group should be use box was all sides and dishes by people like getting people. i don't see my letter that says that somebody's use this really i don't know the best on how to do it. what say i and i was a new private groups reaching impressively. i won't be just by us. i'm going to be under the more comfortable clothes that no more. i agree. and that is possible if you so you, it's the gross as new, private military groups to we don't know, this is not decided this year. what is decided as the source you prior to i made it to the group, be stronger. it was in process of our mission as a full credit that they come to, you know, uh, to work as possible as a, uh, we will be through uh, boxed us anytime you and you said something about the you groups have been north

lake. uh yes, uh and best buy i believe so. so. so to exist, to a border space, uh around most of it's not actually a bunk bed uh to create something. can you under such conditions? i seem to know what uh, what is the. 2 uh, come to the presidents was uh no zillow site here. so it's me, is that right now is it probably means that the letters you mentioned something about 5 percent of the 5 percent of i've got it real quick and i'll be on us by 90 percent stage in the rush. what to do was there, it sounds like about 4 to 5 bucks a 1000 people as a extremely frustrating. so does this what you're part of a little part as a how long sounds good to you fit. so carlos, i should be around. this is a, there's a big get a hold to get that was, uh, i just, oh, that's a big deal i did for uh, just uh,

in as i did as soon as it's still in progress. and we don't see any evidence of that. all your because this happen. yeah. all right, time will tell, i guess if i can bring patrick back in. so what kind of old ton it is? does the kremlin have in extending its power overseas right now? how important vital is wagner group. now that is a fine thing for us. but also as defining was explaining a, a, a nexus of commercial interests of some why are you doing this? is it doesn't potentially named menu or there are other options that are all smaller or less. that's well known, but also less capable as we understand the diner in the same sort of network of shell companies. no, no. i'll head a whole in getting and navigating best and sanctions no, they don't. if you look at what's happening and in my reading of this would be to, does that make me fire still very special. yeah, friends, of course, of course,

because if you are approved and then they're too close. yeah, they're dangerous. so wherever they're, when they're from their address macros, interest whose interest in the russian states a line. well, they align if you put them in by the roots, a contingency of them there to try and the batteries and forces keep tabs on the shank. oh, i know so keep the polls worried that is a great use of wagner resorts is they align if you chose to tell them to get them to suit out and start for men who were battling down there to potentially open the 2nd front of more instability and i forget they align if you do the same in the chair. so that is, that's what's going on. you know, it's where to their interest a line and where they still useful versus wherever they too dangerous to keep post . that's what's going on. and therefore, i don't actually think there's a mazda, as long as the partner fail those and does missions of be enough for managing rebecca and, and siding with, with military or talk with, you know, talk,

receives in these places. and it's a win win for credit. as well, their lesson is just don't have them to post. so again, do you think the appetite is growing in some parts of the world? full russian influence full wagner and places like these. yeah, we've heard it's been reported that vision is koolaid is have reached out to wagner or maybe in areas as patrick was suggesting. like so then to uh, you know, uh ever, we didn't know that uh, uh, boxes we use a best uh, friday and so security to compliment and so we're good to go to us. one more. do you know about that? no, it still comes with you. so you might be more of a matter of opinion, might it not? so again, you might get a different reading if you speak to somebody that 3 on let's look at some of the wagner operations in ukraine. ah, you know,

i've heard this term. it's a little less, some people can say, oh, is there a holes and devils, but oh, what was that? what, what it is that is that really professionally is really excess minutes. it's all and also against you, the musical. all right, we're going through in a minute, patrick. well that's so got to finish out the so we'll come back to punch in a minute. go go ahead, finish up the thoughts. okay. yeah, yeah. would you use a code for the stuff you need to not because we're interested in more is likely to give out that uh uh, more do mom suicide share mix as a box and because it's outside of it, but it will uh, 0 awesome i, i've seen this at the top such as simple uh, printer, not products. all right, perfect. go ahead. do you want it to come in? i think you had a slightly different perspective on this. is this? i don't agree the wagner are the are the best. uh, probably the amenities security going to be in the world. no. i think that means

challenging to say they have proven themselves, especially in you grained at the rapid rate of growth and their ability to integrate russian ministry systems are given to them by the d, as for middle, is largest willing to take casualties. but if you are looking at private manager companies from the west, they would have, obviously, i would say, paying for pounds, especially the ones that recruit from special courses. they are smaller, but they would have a higher skilled level of potentially lower profile. and certainly a lower a record of them acumen. right? seduce is exactly. all right, let's bring in stuff on um, does the kremlin have a choice to make it in some areas? if it's true, it's been reported that some areas, some parts of the world are looking for assistance from wagner. they're looking for russian influence. but at the same time, if the crandon has now got some 2nd thoughts about wagon off to the whole excursion in june,

somebody is going to make some hard decisions about how it shapes the vehicles of its future. foreign influence of that sort of thing. i completely agree with this. i think the choice that the criminal needs to make is what kind of influence it wants to try to develop the world and how this influence but play out in the mountain. so as we have seen, for example, at the rock drive for consulate in st. petersburg, at the end of june off, i mean that clearly it was on an event where sort of rush out, try to project itself as a stabilizing a false false. that would continue over to what would contribute to reading the global solves that just generating more disaffected with the congress that international war. but at the same time, i think the try quite go to frustrated and actually achieving this kind of insurance, both commercial economic development, but also military is,

is not that great if you look for it. so i'm going to try jason in most of the day off, wagner has been a picture for quite some time. it is security situation that has not at all improved. so i mean, effectiveness of walk not is reading a number for you. that's no executive did the wheel track record of a block know providing to kind of a great a secure the table they don't to in the value is, is they support regime so very narrow it leads to the congress to entertain. that group is all that is all i support for what's your phone policy or i'm afraid we all around the times we're going to have to leave it then let's thank congress very much stuff on so gay and patrick, i'm thank you to for watching. you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website, algae 0. don't. com for further discussion head over to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. can also join the conversation on x dot com. our handle

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