semester funding 10 maces and we are confident that this is the deepest accommodation in the world. the present time. we've not managed to find any, any evidence. there's a little trolling that there is any way deeper than this. and guests are deeply impressed. is the thrill of it's, it's the danger of what was good. those beds. each room was slightly different with the day cool. but the growth so is incredible. and stoning is really nice to wake up in the case of mine, but it's, it gave you know, if you do it again, recommended to i would, i should say, yeah. was because it was really pay so uncomfortable me something no victorian mind was ever heard to say. joe, nicole elders here at north wales. the down to 0. these on top stories, defense ministers from the west african block echo us say constitutional order will

be restored in asia by all means available there in governance and discuss if possible military intervention following the coo and these are last month, as he met you need is a big note close to reinstate deposed presence. my how much bonds in tell stratford reports from that meeting and across there seems to be a lot of speculation of increasing focus on the cycle stand by force that was announced last week. that the echo as somebody held in a boucher um we have very few details as to what that stan black forest would look like. but certainly alice to being telling us that as it stands, it is part of a wider initiative that was taken by the african union in 20135 forces regionally across the region of sorry, across africa. as it stands, the current force for the west african region, the supply of 2000 soldiers with at least $1600.00. that dedicated towards restoring democratic rule and countries that may have suffered cruise hold. and 60

people have died off of that migrant boat capsized off the coast of cape friday and the atlantic ocean and the 58 survived. the boat left set a goal and is believed to have been headed to europe. a container ship is back at sale to bring trump to me ukrainian pool to the desk. since ross has invasion, 18 months ago, the address of sold to is headed to take you to leave and you claim invoices as the 1st match and ship to sail from odessa since the collapse of the black sea green deal with russia last month. police impact is dawn of rest of the $130.00 muslims after an attack on churches in the homes of christians. and punjab prevents from outreach shapes of being deployed to john waller to restore order attacks full allegations that of christian residents of desecrated the koran. there's all your headlines as always a website i was, is there a dot com at the latest on all top stories? stay with us. the stream is next time pushing

today to sun. when we talk some entries that inform our presence and illuminate our pie. our people see these things for themselves and make up their own minds to sweden. this become a thing to turn your back against and not think groundbreaking stories from award winning for making. it's actually in order to one elephant conflict. it's a motor official mentoring with conflict, sweetness on $20.00. the hello and welcome to the stream. i'm heidi joe castro, filling in for funny. okay. today, artificial intelligence, an artist, the latest influx of a i powered image generators has artist asking, is this technology a collaborator or a rival? here's how to are to see it. the majority is the greatest industry

crushing technology ever to be released in the creative world. it has become so powerful that at this point it's dangerous for us with a i don't cute. are that a more bus and a more expensive and more profound image? so i did all day in this, possibly it is. yeah, i office to do something truly unique and you know, meet to popular images. generators can produce seemingly endless amounts of stunning visual art in just a matter of seconds. so where does the technology leave professional artist or programs like mid journey and stable the fusion are trained on data sets, made up of billions of images collected online. and generally, without the knowledge or approval of the artist. users can then prompt the trained a i to create new art work, even in the style of a specific artist. some artist see this as

a threat to their jobs and even to their very identities. while others see a i as a powerful new tool to enhance artistic expression and expand human creativity. and with us to talk about this in the us state of north dakota, we have shane bulk which an artist and photographer from ohio, katherine elkins, professor of humanities. and in a researcher at kenyon college. and from berlin, art photographer, boris l. dodson who recently rejected this here sony world photography prize, which he won after revealing that his submitted photo was made with the help of a i. thank you all 3 for joining us for this really interesting discussion. and of course, i feel like it is fitting to start with you because what captured my attention and many people around the world where these headlines that came out in april. when you won the sony world photography contests. we see in the garden photographer,

mit prize winning image was a generated german artist for us. so dodson says entry to sony, world photography awards was designed to provoke debate. and of course, this is the photography, the if you can call it a photo, which i know is part of the discussion, but that's what we're debating at this moment for us. thank you so much for joining us. tell me more about this entry a while it was a test to find out if for the competitions where that a i don't know it could images will be handed in and they have not been ready for it. and because they have not been ready for it, they have no position on the relationship between a i generated images and photography. and i've tried to have a debate starting on this topic. if this only would photography you want,

but the way to just not willing to, so i had to refuse. and what started, since it's much, much bigger than i could have ever expected it to me. and i'm very thankful for the, for the community to make it happen. i think it is one that many artists are hoping to have and for you to be the one to open that can of worms so to speak. i think that's a good thing. and a shame, i know you are among the other artists who saw this happen and you may have had a different reaction. what did you think of for us as entry? well it, it 1st came to my attention to this. is this a i a concern is when i started seeing people post these images and calling them photographs as a photographer, as an analog photographer i, i knew immediately that these are not photographs who i'm in ordered. the definition of photography is rather clear. it was made about a 180 years ago, and you have to use light and photo sense of materials. and i knew that the i

generated images aren't using any of that. so i'm, that was my 1st concern with this is that i searched on instagram and i found that there was a 170000 images identifying themselves as photographs. and none of them were photographs. i see catherine, you are a researcher in this field, so we're going to kind of have you be are neutral, orbit or in a sense and you do come at it from academic perspective. how 1st to just tell us how to these a r g a i generate or is even work? well, they definitely don't work the way that some of the lawsuit suggests they do. one thing to understand is they're not storing the data in a traditional sense. they're not taking images that they've scraped from the internet and recombining them. so one of the problems with the lawsuits right now is they are using incorrect definitions to describe exactly what's happening there based on a day fusion model. the best way to think about it is if you have color and you

drop it into a glass of water, it di fuses into that water throughout these actually start with noise. they start with that diffused process, and then they gradually take away noise to build up an image. this makes all of the controversy very difficult because they're obviously not working in the ways that are copyright laws assume they're not working through plagiarism or any of those kinds of things. that's right. so they're not actually storing these images. is that right? and, and i mean, we're talking about like 5000000000 images that are scraped from the internet, aren't we? right? they're not storing it because they are kind of some people say it's like if i went to an art gallery and i looked at art and then i went home and i painted a picture. now some researchers say we shouldn't even with the humanizing it, it is not like a human. on the other hand, a group of researchers led by coline did find that they could recreate a very, very small percentage of images. so i think they found point 03 images that they

would could recreate. people are now calling us a soft database. it's not storing all of these images, but it can very, very rarely actually recreate images. i think shane, i want to come see you next to because i know you specialize in a form of art that takes hours of laborious labor to accomplish and we actually have video of you doing this work. how long does it take you to create one images using those wet plate process? when i work on fridays in my studio, i'm in here about 8 to 10 hours and i will make i'm between 8 and 10 plates. so about, you know, maybe if i'm rushed or you know, i can make a plate in about a half hour. so there's a lot of time invested in composition and, and making sure everything is right. um, so it, it is um, but we're talking about a historic process that, that gets back to $1851.00 and there's less than a 1000 of us in the world are at better actually practicing website today. that is very unique and as an experiment,

this is interesting. you posted on your instagram account, you asked in a image creator tool to make an image. and in that style and it took 10 seconds. you right here, after you put in the prompt to generate this, this picture what he was make of that? yeah, well it's, it's, it's the prompt. it's the, there's very little image, very little information that needs to be added to the system in order for it to give you on a rather elaborate outcome. and, you know, to talk about what catherine was talking about is how it uses the fusion and so forth. my argument is that you couldn't get the output without the input so that that color that she was talking about extracting from he relies on over 5000000000 images including so there it is and including some of you are all images from my understanding here. you found some of yours in this data set where you ever credited, you know,

i sent over 30 of my native american works in this database of over 5800000000 photographs. and so, so can i argue that the outputs of one of these are a i generated uh images um if you ask for a native american in the web play process and it gives you something in 5 seconds. can i argue that some of my work is in there somewhere? all right, and let's take a moment to listen to some of the concerns from sam. again, he is a digital artist in canada, who found that a i models had been trained on images of his work. and we're generating new works of art in his style, not only as a collection of copyrighted content of legal concern, but so is this when a like to innovations are made to look like an artist work. this has the potential for reputation damage for forgery, for fraud, for identity theft. and what's most concerning is that with these models are trained on the images of the artwork. they are unable to forget. so almost all of these models are now working with tainted data. their generations now all involve

copyrighted content which has been gathered without the knowledge or permission of the copyright owner. it is directly hurting artists with put their passions and their soul and everything though they create totally for their work to be scrape from the internet and without their permission and used in training a i models for us. i know you've worked in the fee for over 30 years, right. and you just started experimenting with a guy in the last year or so. so how do you see this collaboration that you've developed as i love to work with a i but i also understand shane and the about this position and they're both slight . yeah, i could add something to this to make it more like complex. but if you ask me about the positive side of a i it is the ration from restrictions that i had before because i always created out of my imagination. and now there are no restrictions left. and

the beauty about it is that i'm using my knowledge to create the image just the knowledge that i collected, instead of to use, photographing and making out. and when you use it this way, you don't need to at a certain style and to copy the style of somebody else. you can create something you, you can create a prompt that is very complex. if you have no idea of this d, i is going to fill in the empty spots and create something that looks good. so the phenomena behalf is that the lower end of the image making of people that have no skills before it's now lifted to a higher level by d, i pushing it up and the device modes. yes, you mentioned the prompts for us and i think for our viewers who may have never dabbled with a i generating tools. it's interesting just to, to see what you, you enter and i know you, you sent us an example of what you would tell this

a i generator in these topics that i have on my screen here. and how much of you is really going into this creation process? well, you see all the black pods, and this is directly relating to my knowledge. but you could also just type in trump gets arrested. yeah, it is the subject, and that's it. you don't even mention if it should be a photograph of painting or drawing. but if you at all the elements that pos to both you are having delete and you are actually b u r creative. it's a creative act. that is certainly a of the point that many share. kelly, you. sorry, catherine, you had mentioned the last 2. it's that, that artist who disagree with boris, have filed. and i want to just 1st talk about one of those artist kelly mclearnen, who is

a plaintive in the last 2 that is against mid journey stable to fusion and dream up . and they tweeted a i, r is fast, isn't creative. it's literally regurgitating the work of thousands of living and working human artists like me. task rented from the research perspective is what's happening. just a re garza taishan of stolen art. yeah, absolutely not. um, it would be a lot easier if it were. i think it would be a lot more clear cut i. i agree that it, it is extremely creative. it's a lot of fun. if you use it, i can tell you personally that i teach all my students how to use it and not all of them create great art it's, it's a little tricky. it requires skill. it's an iterative process where you revise and keep working on art. and it's a lot of fun. so there is the democratizing aspect that now everybody has this at their disposal to create amazing art. but i do want to say that there are

implications for all of us, and it's not just artists to make a living. we have a, i that may replace writers, we have a i that may replace coders. so this is really a huge issue. as far as copyright law goes. uh, catherine. i mean, this is kind of new territory, right? the they're, they're trying to, the plaintiffs in this case. the artists are trying to argue that style itself merits a copyright. how difficult would it be to prove that, or i think it's going to be extremely difficult. that is never been the case. if you go back in history, artist used to go to the move and paint all of the masters, and that was very, very typical. so copying other people styles has always been in part of training. copyright wise, i don't think that this is gonna hold up, and it's also the case that they just denounced in march, that they're going to allow copyrighted a i r, if we can show that there is, in fact some human element involved in it. and just exactly how much of that human

element is necessary, it's going to be a question, i think. yeah, shape or just so you want to jump on it. as of right now, the united states copyright department has, is not allowing any of these works to be copied, written, because to know that they both turned or that's right they, they have to go into this possibility. yeah, it is a novel leave i would or sorry, go ahead. worse. i would like to make that a company life problem even larger. everybody is talking about the stripping of the images from the internet and the training material. how i see it's their last thoughts. yeah, it's all on the way and stay with the fusion has set up an up in up out option. so things will be solved positively next the positively by the end of this year. but i don't need a person to be in the training material to copy this style. what i can do is i can just ask to describe the style of an artist and words. and if you

can do it, you don't need any training material. you just described it and you can really get close to the original. and the 2nd problem is that the training with to your list is 25 percent of the problem. 75 percent of the problem is that the platforms enabled and in coverage seem to use this to upload images. and that can be taken from wherever. this is the main problem if you don't a cup of coffee, right? but somehow, nobody wants to, and it's important to know if that these platforms are making money off of users, right? who subscribe to their services, and they're not paying the artist with from, for the source material. go. he, there was a case, there was a case recently we were an artist asked to have his images scrubbed from one of these databases. and instead of getting the images scrubbed, he was sent a $1000.00 bill to do so right out just as a concern. as it's a concern,

i know it's the same thing for you that, that you know is, is personal because you have found, again, you found your own images that you worked on and be used as a source material. and i actually wanted to show our viewers and example you have dedicated. what i write is, this is your life's work right. to photographing a 1000 native americans using the special wet plate technique. if we can put up on our screen, one of these images was made by you shane and the other was made by ai gonna let us think about it for just a 2nd. which is, which is shay now tell us which one was your recreation, which one was not? the gentleman with a feather in his hair is a very good friend of mine. and i took that portrait about 4 months ago. and this brings up another concern that i had about this technology is that um, it's effect on history. okay. it may be just cute and fun and we're all excited and

the we've got this new little shiny thing that allows us to create these images. but when you ask for one of these generators to create a native american web play collodion image that can't be undone, that's the say you posted on facebook, maybe it gets posted 2 websites. someone else shares it and it's out there in the world. and i, i've got works at over 65 museums around the world. and, um, the curators are, are very concerned about this, because can you about imagine 75 over a 100 years from now? that image pops up and they're gonna have a very difficult time. and remember these, this technology is getting better exponentially. boris and i talked yesterday and we had maybe come to a determination by the end of this year. we think that even the trained photograph of guy's not going to be able to determine the difference between um, one of the image on the left versus my image on the right. so you can imagine curators in the future. how may be thinking this image on the left is

a historical image and, and putting in a museum where displaying that is something important. we have to understand that this person here never existed and never will exist and never has existed. and um to have. so what's the point of these port put these portraits? i really want to understand what's the purpose of these portraits and i, i'm are given that it's going to do nothing but confuse history. yeah. confused the future. it's certainly a, it's certainly as trading on that territory of deep fakes. and for people who have been marginalized, erased from history in the past, that is absolutely not acceptable. and i know that's the opinion of some of your subjects for waiting on this. catherine, on this great are topics to of just what defines art. you know, people, some would argue that art must be created by humans. stephen count as art, but there appear to be others who now disagree with that. what do you think as well, for quite a while waste and debating this?

i mean, you think of marcel duchamp who put a urinal in the middle of the exhibition and call that are right. so this has really been in session for a long time. i think a more interesting question is, does it make us feel a certain way? and one of the really interesting things about these generated images is they're very successful often in composition, in some kind of emotion that they produce interviewer. so for thinking about what we would call in aesthetic experience, i think that they do actually qualify. again, we also have to think about the public will we accept this as a kind of art? and then we have to think, does it require a human? but i just want to point out that it's trained on a human art. so just like chat g p t that has all of this language, there is a human feel to it because it has learned from human art. and it has that human feeling, there is a human element in it. and there's also so real a man, i wanted to show our viewers so interesting use of a guy that has been celebrated. this is a twitter post of the artist,

christina bell, or a jewelry designer who made this using the journey. so you can see um, and also uh, this is kind of interesting. this is a, by an artist named ben moran, who posted this article on, excuse me, not been around, excuse me. this is made by alexander rubbin, who asked a chatbox to describe imagery of to describe an imaginary art piece. and he actually made it in real life. so this is a picture of what he created from the prompt. the sculpture contains a plunder, a toilet plunger, a plunger, a plunger, a plunger, and a plunder. that's what the guy wrote. and of course, his piece is called the plunderers. so it's theory. he's sort of turning it back on itself, right. it's, we're kind of in this new serv, hill territory here. it's conceptual. it's a new way of doing good step to out. it's, it's, uh, it's fun. yeah, it's easy. i've done it myself. i also tend to key. can you just invent

a new up style and it came up with a new real plastic expression is and was able to describe it. and then if you transform it into an image, why image of items, you have something which is really interesting. it is pushing bound, it has a right, which it has a big, it's a feet of experimentation. and this is what i like. yes. and that is a death and there's that as one of the definitions of art. got and go ahead. sean chang. i had another question for catherine. i'm one of the other concerns that i've thought about is that, you know, one could argue that eventually or be more of these images than real images online that you could theoretically say that. and at some point these a i generators and you know more about them than i do. catherine are going to be training live. that's the same. now. they're training on databases that were a couple years old, or however long their day that they're not, they're not actually live on line. i hooked up to the internet. i'm describing as,

as we go, as we create throughout the day that that is a big difference once that goes live. you can about imagine that these, these a i generators are going to start training on previously generated a i imagery. so we have this cannibalism of previously created the images. and now we have future a i training on past a i and i just don't know where that leaves us. yeah. and catherine, i'll let you ask for that. but i also want to ask you guys a final question of our show because our time is coming to an end. because it seems like a precarious time to enter the industry for any young artist who are hearing this and asking themselves, will they even have a job, catherine, you teach those artist, so please very assisting to me any words invite a bit of advice, excuse me, for them, i mean, right now you still have to have a certain scale to use as well. so i think there is opportunity, but how long that opportunity last i don't know. a bigger concern for me is not retraining. on all of this, a i generated art,

but the fact that the art is really defined by the training side. and if it's being trained on a lot of western art, if it thinks that women tend to look a certain way, then we're going to have more and more images produced that way. so when we talk about las voices last images, that certainly will be the case with this kind of art as well. right? unfortunately, our time is also coming to an end in the show, as we open up this debate and it's going to carry forward for a long time about what is our, what is a ais contribution, and kind of push the boundaries or is it a threat? thank you so much for watching us on the stream. so your next time the

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