it makes traveling a challenge we follow to drive as soon as he grapples with the past the, his many bucks and the one of the few went into drive to remote villages. risk in it all. i because i'm out is there see what went wrong with the moon? a 25. the russian space cross crashed on the moon instead of making a soft landing at the south pole. as all the countries compete in the waste, the space was less than was it being done from the stadium? this is inside story, the other there and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. it was admissions, elevate,

rushes, standing both at home and in space. spots, luna, 25 spacecraft failed to stick its landing across is raising questions about moscow space program, particularly as rush it becomes more isolated from the west. competition is let us alongside russia, india, china, and the u. s. o, looking to explore whether there's water and the result is on the south pole of the moon. so how big a set back has the kremlin stuff it and what does it mean for rival programs and business benches. alphabets. well, we'll get to that with august and just a moment. but for his katya lopez. hardy. yeah. it was russia's 1st mission to the moon. in almost 50 years with the luna 25 lunar lander failed to live up to its name. it crashed onto the surface of the moon exposing challenges perhaps beyond russia space program. western sanctions imposed on russia prevented them access to

very high performance micro electronic components which they need for their spacecraft because the supply chain is collapsed. they're having to either bypass it in some other way or build instrumentation at home. the racist about space, exploration and prestige, but also about business. let me try again. it's scientists believe parts of the moon may hold deposits of ice for drinking water. another precious elements that in the future could be mind by astronauts and competition is growing. india is expecting its own spacecraft, tundra yon 3 to do with the russians, couldn't and land on the lunar south pole $11.00 c m, along with the us, china and russia. india is also spending big on expanding its reach in space. is a moment of the moment. and i do moment of this to be for all of us that we

are part of the history collaboration between the russian space agency, russ costs most and some of its counterparts like nasa were broken off after rushes and evasion of ukraine. some analysts say the lunar $25.00 crash underscores the decline of russia space power since the glory days of the soviet union. when sputnik one blasted off in 1957, the 1st satellites ever to orbit the earth. it's not uncommon for space missions to fail, but russia needed a when, as a sign of defiance and national pride. katia lopez, so the again, for insights story let's bring in all guests now and, and it's heavy chase, maryland. we have steve now and a retired astronomer at nasa and asked a physicist at na, says go dog space flight center. steve is also offer of the guidebook astronomy for

dummies. and the engine capital in new delhi is retired. all me, that's kind of general and it'll come up, but he's also a director general of the indian space association. and then philadelphia in the us, we have derek pitts. he's chief, a strong, i'm a and a planetary and program director at the franklin institute of right will welcome to all of you. and 3rd, 1st of all, the big question of course, that everyone's asking today is what happened. what went wrong with the $25.00? for the reports that we've had so far, there is an indication that there was a malfunction. with a landing maneuver that the russians were attempting to begin the landing sequence, they were moving from one orbit level down to another orbit level. and as far as we know, either the rocket fired to long fired to little or fired in the wrong direction. and the result was a crash onto the surface. so unfortunately, that last landing maneuver, it seems, did not work in steve. just how embarrassing is this for most government as

a full cry? isn't it from the sophisticated space program of the former soviet union? i had certainly is they, they landed uh uh, a number of times in this, in the past on the move they landed successfully the only ones to do it 10 times on the surface of venus. and the crash comes, adjust embarrassing time, because another nation is about to try to do the same thing. but in fairness, people, nations company crash on the moon all the time. they've been to crashes on the moon in april alone of this year by 2 different nations. ok, does that all the nation in just a moment that of course the india, steve, why do you think this particular time it might have happened? do you think we should be looking at 2 political reasons we should be looking at

the states of russia's economy? ukraine will. all of these issues didn't they play into a russian space program? i think they do maybe use crane not so much because lunar, uh, attempted landing with a plan for a long, long time. but uh uh, at some point to what was the soviet program became the, the russian program lost a lot of funding loss political emphasis. the truth that most of the early space programs were intended for geo political credit, prestige more than science. and so they haven't had to study funding that the nasa and some other nations have had so many years to get practice in building space. quite a flying missions with all the latest technology. they may be russians also, maybe behind some technologies. but also there are a crashes and unexpected events that can occur to anyone's appropriate. okay,

general box, that's good onto india. so just before we do, i can seem to, or do you want to say something to wanna jump into laura, i was, i was gonna point out that in addition to that, you know, the, the other thing is that, uh, it has not helped russia. the russian space program at all the embark, those that have been imposed on russia since the beginning of the conflict with ukraine. so 11 result of that is the lack of supply of heart and the electronics and very, very reliable level and tronics that are needed to sustain spacecraft in the horrible environment of space. i mean, we don't think of space really in the way that we should, which is it's not a benign environment at all. it's very, very difficult on electronics, on all of that makes this work difficult for any country. but if you don't have the components you need because of political embargoes, then that really does multiply your chances that you might run into a problem. okay, well let's move on to what we hope will be a more successful operation in the next couple of days. general,

but the spotlight is now on india house on the hills. of course of russia could be the 1st nations land on the fall side of the many you confidence of success to hold. the definitely very near the pollution from the on one which was a total success from the which was partially isn't as well. and of course, the negative that thing cost lender, but the lessons learned from that, i'm very sure that'd be the very best buy. and this time they had all the fans here from the categories, put the weight there, learned the regulations. and i'm very showing mix 2 days really have a very good news when they come down the line. yes, except the call. but i am so confident that this time i'll cite this as well

because the key issue different says here between your old and the russian program is as you say, this is the 3rd time that you've been attempting this. you've had one success, one possible success, mrs. all following on you've learned a lot of lessons. the russians, on the other hand, hadn't tried to land on the moon, and 50 is we is the, the if you see the core, they are one of the nations which has the but yes, said it'd be the last gap. i need to find. maybe that is some of those ethics for you. one of the most important thing is like one of my other fellow been assisted spaces on hadn't any small mistake, can lead to what a successful mission and becoming unsuccessful. and then it worked well. and i guess that's what makes it so compulsive and so fascinating for so many people give us like a, a general back of what chandra young threes mission is going to be on this fall side on the south pole of the moon. and the state of michigan is the most important

. it is a soft landing on the moon. on the south side, the is off of the land is landed in the beach. i don't because royal i'm to bring along with the lender call again. and also that'll be a number of scientific guys, including the best single story and all the scientific instruments which have been a just one more question to your general. but before we move on to our other guests in do, of course, with the 1st discomfort was on the moon some 10 years ago. that is a key issue, isn't it on a reason for people to return there again? and again, do we have any idea how to extract was from the moon where i mean not being assigned. this will not be able to do until you were she completely what we, what, what we have learned from our 1st mission and what?

so the things are happening, we are expecting that on the southern side, we will find them, look at it, they're going to be very important for future missions. was go to the more or maybe voice version of all of the o box of space. okay. okay, that's bringing the statement, say what does happen when one does fine, we'll throw on the mean what's, what's the next step as well, the big step um, unfortunately, opinion of some people who are concerned about preserving the loaner environment like a national park is that you you find ways to explore that, why you, it's critical to find. i signed a more through a brochure. there's no bottle of water up there. there is no actual ocean. on the moon there, no underground springs. it's going to be in the form of ice. there's some traces of water vapor because the ice evaporates or something, right?

and so you have to see exactly what form the ice is. is it all tiny particles mixed up in the lunar soil, which is a sharp and cutting particles dangerous to handle, let alone and hail to get in, use your lunar? i'm a pod. and so if to see exactly what form it is and develop the technology that's best extracted, gets rid of the g filters out the, the rock particles and turns it into the liquid or, or compressed gas. and you need this water because if you're going to have people working on the moon for more than a few days as they did when the nasa astronaut was there in the 1970s. they've got to have, they've gotta have oxygen in the breeze. they've got to have water to drink and for

other purposes. if you have almost any industrial process or even just cooking, you need water, you can bring it all, you can bring it from work for a few days. you can bring uh enough to stay there for a month or 2 or indefinitely. because for every pound of water you need many more pounds of rock per pallet. and then you have no, you need a rock bigger than even the lot, most kinds of place making to, to develop the moon, to live on the moon. you leave, you need water and oxygen. you can get the water from the ice. you can take some of that water and split it electrically into oxygen and hydrogen, the oxygen to breeze or to be use as the oxidizer and rocket fuel to get to home or to go somewhere else on from the moon. so water is critical. say, do you think we should throw this or that we should exploit the water and the

result is on the moon, or should we preserve the natural environment? the i think you can do both this we do what on earth. the miners don't have a great record, and i, and there are people who fear they'll have a worse record on the moon where there's no local inhabitants to have a printed line. but it's, it's almost inevitable. it may start because of political rivalry. but there are also resources near. one of the things hasn't been mentioned is the helium 3 that's a heavy and rare isotope of the gas, helium. it's apparently present and abundance in the lunar soil where it's been trapped from the solar wind that beats down on the moon continuously. it doesn't beat down on the surface of the earth because of the reflected by the radiation. well, some are, might need a severe helium 3 is many for this is consider the ideal

fuel for future nuclear fusion plants that might solve the energy problem on earth . if we survived the climate, climate problems in time, right at the exchange has brought up a lot of points that a lot of valuable results as possibly that appeared to be on the moon. is that going to be a big question of a who owns them? who has the rights to exploit them and who can benefit from them? well 1st of all, who knew that the south pole of the moon was going to become so popular? it was the discovery of uh, water there that really started started that part of the popularity of the moon. and as the points out, this is incredibly important because of the need for the resources to explore the rest of the solar system. but as far as ownership of the moon is concerned, you know, there have been policies in place since the 19th sixty's that talk about ownership

. and the intention was that the moon was going to be very much like the research base. is that an article where no one owns the moon or owns any of the planets? and so it really has been brought down to who can get there 1st to explore what resources are there. so i don't think that i don't think we're going to see any time soon. any kind of a lease arrangements or any kind of real estate sales or parcels that the mood or anything like that. but it all really comes down to who gets to where 1st to make and use the resources available in general. but with india at the moment's leaving that race, is this a conversation that's being had in new delhi? why is the prime minister new into moody making space expiration stops a priority? you know, unfortunately, this is the insights. uh, fortunately for india, in the last 60 or israel has kept us have the idea been off the space treading

issues. what model, because of the search and expiration and expiration of the universe, which has to be left bicycle, the 2nd boxes, the commotion box while the you see the space, which has no dusk, every life space now has become and this has to be bought. bead for communication beat, for the most sense, for you beat for navigation on what was meant by governments previously. no, the privilege sector has also become a and even operate administrative. 2020. busy managers, historically, this is in the company just be as the private sector and our nascent industry in the private, the we also know queen elizabeth, i mean the, the, i was looking at the private space of the space industry in india, the private stops and they have doubled since 2020. do they support the national

program or are they in conflict with it in competition with it? how does it or what can we is everything if we're working together and one great big cause, make copy finally. well, they're totally in coordination with the national program in fact, so we've had one successful launch by the start of, of so over to launch and very soon the public, the launch. another company is waiting to big and just buy a cd technology tv. by a point engine at all, they are being hand hormones corded by issue it's so so when, when a situation with the competition between government agencies and virus or even have . busy some all new starter to be able to make satellites and not to successfully have been provided all the support from the government and from the okay,

the video eric, do you want to jump in the yeah, so let me point out that with all due respect to with, with all due respect to all of the players in the, in the space round these days, we also have to keep in mind that, you know, this is also a question of national pride for every country that's involved in this. and it's also a story about technological superiority. i think that one of the, one of the things that drove the space race that has always driven spaced races is the desire to demonstrate a technological superiority that's held by a nation. and that's, you know, but is a, is a great source of national pride. so we can't leave out the fact that having that technological superiority in space also indicates points out and suggests to everyone else. but you have a superior technology capability, but may be beyond everyone else. so that is also a very serious issue or consideration when we think about all the other parts and

pieces of you know, wanting to do this space exploration, then you know that all those, all those altruistic pieces are nice and everything. but let's not forget the parts about national pride and texting like demonstration of technological superior already. absolutely. as think that's a 5 point to that. and yes, it came in, put this in at the beginning of the discussion that there is this a sort of the parallel track of national ambition, national pride, technological advance spends his direct says and science. do these 2 tracks go hand in hand when it comes to exploring space, then of course you've got the commercial aspects to oh, all they so they've been contact with each other during division. obviously, there's no more important to in some sense, satellite launcher, then become a private company space x, because it launches more satellites when every year than everybody else on earth

put together, i think they don't watch more rockets than and i don't like them china, but they want rockets every week with dozens of satellites on board, the there you get to the moon and nobody owns the place you're landing. nobody owns the place. you are exploiting. everybody else has the right to land on there. the international space agreements really were just say the other bodies and the solar system beyond there's are come to sort of common property. they don't lay down that it principals and if they did, it doesn't mean that we or anybody else would always. i would always follow then, your question is, whoever lands 1st, there's near one of those craters or then the south pole in the moon, where you've got continuous around the clock, solar energy available on the rim of the crater and continuous dark shadow in the

bottom where you can mark where you can live safely and mine your water. oh, wherever lands there, what have somebody lands right next to them, or they casting a shadow on or solar panels. hardly encroaching on their limited deposited vice. there's a lot of moving out there and are on a lot of known great places to land right now. and let's say that everybody's there and safe places not interfering with each other in terms of the land or their exploiting. what about communications was back to earth . what about keeping time? time run faster on the moon, then the same clocked on new york. that's a problem that we're beginning to worry about. coordinating. what about relaying communications? does everybody have to have their own satellite relays, satellites, or bidding the moon and interfering with the radio telescopes,

which astronomers hope will be put on the backside of the moon, which offers a unique opportunity. the explore the early universe and listen in on the planets of other solar systems. there's, there, there needs to be of common infrastructure and how you get a rival nations and on a neutral nations and private corporations driven by stockholders who may be benign or greedy. there's a lot of human problems to be solved as i think derrick was indicating absolutely dark. i just want to get to get in here before the discussion board run out of time for the discussion. what, where's the u. s. senate space program, why are we not seeing america nasa trying to land on the south side of the main as well? that is where we're heading. the art of us program that nasa it has now undertaken . it is the, you know, a 3rd of the way into it for building new rocketry and building new capitals to

land on the moon is planning to do it next. or moon, or orbits in 2025. i think it is. and so they have plans to have boots on the moon in just a few years right after that. so they have a program that's a, has a program set up a program working and operating the plants to return people to the moon. in fact, whenever you talk to nasa about this, the one thing they always say is that in this year of 2025, 26 or 27, we're going to land the 1st woman in the 1st person of color on the moon. so this is their mantra about getting back to the home. but i think the other thing that we should point out here are 2 aspects of this that are, you know, critically important going forward. one is that when you look up a commercial models for a space, exploration in space exploitation, there really aren't any working financial models yet. that makes sense. in other words, yes, you can launch plenty of satellites, but who's really making money at this? you know, when a long term basis, particularly when we talk about deep space exploration, is there

a financial footing of financial model that makes sense for an independent company to spend time mining space somehow and number 2 on the other side. so as we mentioned earlier, this is challenging, space is hard, space is dangerous space is definitely one thing that could help. every one would be if this were a community and never instead of a separate them different, you know, by individual countries. if we could coordinate our efforts together, we could not only share the expense, but we could share the risk as well and share the resources as well. but so far because of the fact that this is much more about national pride and demonstration of technological superiority. oh yes, and there is the research that goes along with it. you know, right now we're in a place where we're all trying to do it individually and general that do you agree with that? do you hope for more cooperation in the future and into is planning to corporate with japan this month on a space program,

but there is cooperation that that sort of in bits, isn't it? do you think the world should be in one domain with it has always been publish. and if i look back up the street, oh, us spaces we have been to have. oh, those are lines. that'd be the was the cross japan. so even russian and the space is one domain with all nations at corporate or below. yes, the national break, that was the one time a major competition or the 1st satellite, the 1st man landing on the moon and all. and she's, she's a deluxe. the space to she, it has to be the great example of wish, and i see option of like that in the future also, when we have to maybe be on tomorrow. okay, well on that 5 positive notes, thank you very much to all our guests for joining us and general i know. come on, but we wish you the best of luck with the scheduled landing on this outside of the

meeting on wednesday. thanks all say to steve mine and derek pitts. i'm thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting a website this out. is there a dot com, the discussion to good? well, facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also turn the conversation on x. a handle is as a inside story from a laura co and the whole team here is bye for now the the

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