a lot in america is a region of wonder i'm joy tragedy, and yes of violet. but it doesn't matter where you are. you'll have to be able to relate to the human condition. the i've been covering all of latin america for most of my career, but no country is a like, and it's my job defense life on how and why. see what went wrong with the moon or 25. the russian space club crashed on the moon instead of making a salt landing at the south pole. as all the countries compete in the waste, a space was less than was a thing, none from the failure. this is inside story, the

other there and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. it was a mission to elevate, rushes standing both at home and in space. spots luna, 25 spacecraft failed to stick its landing across is raising questions about moscow space program, particularly as rush it becomes more isolated from the west. competition is let us alongside russia, india, china, and the u. s. o, looking to explore whether there's water and the other result is on the south pole of the moon. so how big a set back has the kremlin stuff and what does it mean for rival programs and business benches? also if this well, we'll get to that without guess in just a moment, but for his katia lopez hardy. yeah. it was russia's 1st mission to the moon in almost 50 years. with the luna 25 lunar lander failed to live up to its name.

it crashed onto the surface of the moon exposing challenges perhaps beyond russia space program. western sanctions imposed on russia prevented them access to very high performance micro electronic components which they need further spacecraft because the supply chain is collapsed. they're having to either bypass it in some other way or build instrumentation at home, the racist about space, exploration and prestige, but also about business. let me try again. scientists believed parts of the moon may hold deposits of ice for drinking water. another precious elements that in the future could be mind by astronauts and competition is growing. india is expecting its own spacecraft, tundra. yeah. and 3 to do with the russians. couldn't. and land on the lunar south pole $11.00 c m, along with the us, china and russia. india is also spending big on expanding its reach in space.

is a moment to go to the moment and i do moment of this to be for all of us, the be a part of the is the collaboration between the russian space agency of us cosmos. and some of its counterparts like nasa were broken off after rushes and evasion of ukraine. or some analysts say the luna $25.00 crash underscore is the decline of russia space power since the glory days of the soviet union. when sputnik one blasted off in 1957, the 1st satellites ever to orbit the earth. it's not uncommon for space missions to fail, but russia needed a when, as a sign of defiance and national pride, katia a little bit so again, for insights story let's bring in all guests now and in. chevy chase, maryland. we have steve now and

a retired astronomer at nasa and astro, a physicist at na says go dog space flight center. steve is also offer the guidebook astronomy for dummies in the indian capsule. new delhi is retired. all my left hand in general. i know come a box hazel site director general of the indian space association and then philadelphia in the us. we have derek pitts. he's chief, a strong, i'm a and a planetary and program director at the franklin institute of right. we'll welcome to all of you. and 3rd, 1st of all, the big question, of course, that everyone's asking today is what happened? what went wrong with the $25.00? for the reports that we've had so far, there is an indication that there was a malfunction. with a landing maneuver that the russians were attempting to begin the landing sequence, they were moving from one orbit level down to another orbit level. and as far as we know, either the rocket fired to long fired to little or fired in the wrong direction.

and the result was a crash onto the surface. so one, fortunately, that last landing maneuver, it seems, did not work in steve. just how embarrassing is this for most? i mean, it's a full cry, isn't it? from the sophisticated space program of the former soviet union. i had certainly is they, they landed uh uh, a number of times in this, in the past on the move they landed successfully the only ones to do it 10 times on the surface of venus. and the crash comes, adjust embarrassing time, because another nation is about to try to do the same thing. but in fairness, people, nations company crash on the moon all the time. they've been to crashes on the moon in april alone of this year by 2 different nations. ok, does that all the nation in just a moment day of course the india. steve,

why do you think this particular time it might have happened? do you think we should be looking at 2 political reasons we should be looking at the state of rushes economy? ukraine will all of these issues didn't they play into the russian space program? i think they do maybe use crane not so much because lunar attempted landing been planned for a long, long time. but at some point to what was the soviet program became the, the russian program lost a lot of funding loss political emphasis. the truth is that most of the early space programs were intended for geo political prep prestige more than science. and so they haven't had to study funding the, the nasa and some other nations have had for many years to get practice in building space. quite a flying missions with all the latest technology. they may be russians also,

maybe behind some technologies. but also there are crashes and unexpected events that can occur to anyone's program. okay, general boss that's goes on to india. so just before we do, i can seem to, or do you want to say something to jump into laura, i was, i was going to point out that in addition to that, you know, the, the other thing is that, uh, it has not helped russia. the russian space program at all the embark, those that have been imposed on russia since the beginning of the conflict with ukraine. so 11 result of that is the lack of supply of heart and the electronics and very, very reliable level and tronics that are needed to sustain spacecraft in the horrible environment of space. i mean, we don't think of space really in the way that we should, which is it's not a benign environment at all. it's very, very difficult on electronics, on all of that makes this work difficult for any country. but if you don't have the components you need because of political embargoes,

then that really does multiply uh your chances that you might run into a problem. okay, well let's move on to what we hope will be a more successful operation in the next couple of days. general bought this book, life is now on india house on the hills. of course of russia could be the 1st nations land on the fall side of the many you confident of success to hold the definitely the pollution from the on one which was the total success john the ball, which was the box. it isn't just one, know, cause a negative that thing ca, standard. but the lessons learned from that. i'm very sure that'd be very valuable . and this time they haven't had all the fancy categories, but they do it. they're learn the lessons and i'm very showing mix to days. read have already good news when they come land land that yes,

except the call. but i'm so confident that this time i'll cite this as well because the key issue different says here between your old and the russian program is as you say, this is the 3rd time that you've been attempting this. you've had one success, one possible success. and this is all following on. you've learned a lot of lessons. the russians, on the other hand, hadn't tried to land on the moon. and 50 is we is the, if you see the core, they are one of the nations which has the but yes, it'd be the large cap names. maybe that is some of those expertise. one of the most important thing is like one of them out of the list and said spaces are, had any small mistake, can lead to what a successful mission and becoming unsuccessful. and that doesn't work well. and i guess that's what makes it so compulsive and so fascinating for so many people give

us like a general bath of what chandra. again, three's mission is going to be on this fall side on the south pole of the moon. literally the student mission is the most important, is a soft landing on the moon. on the south site, the is off of the land is landed in the beach. i don't because royal i'm to bring along with the land. lando caught up again, and also that'll be a number of scientific guys, including the best single story. and although scientific instruments, which have been a just one more questions here, general. but before we move on to our other guests in do, of course, the 1st discomfort was on the moon some 10 years ago. that is a key issue, isn't it on a reason for people to attend there again? and again, do we have any idea how to extract was from the moon? we were, i mean,

not being assigned. this will not be able to do until you were she completely what we, what, what do we have a loan from a false mission then what? so the things are happening, we are expecting that on the southern side, we will find them, look at it, that won't be very important for future missions. was going to the more or maybe version of all of the o box of space. okay. okay. that's bringing to save it and save. what does happen when one does find, hold sure. on the moon what's, what's the next step as well the big step um, unfortunately, opinion of some people who are concerned about preserving the loaner environment like a national park is that you, you find ways to explore that. why you, it's critical to find. i signed a more blue brochure, there's no bottle of water up there. there's no actual ocean. on the moon there,

no underground springs. it's going to be in the form of ice. there's some traces of water vapor because the ice evaporates or something, right? and so you have to see exactly what form the ice is. is it all tiny particles mixed up in the lunar soil, which is a sharp and cutting particles dangerous to handle, let alone and hail they get in years. you're lunar, i'm a pod. and so if to see exactly what form it is and develop the technology that best extracts, it gets rid of the g filters out the, the rock particles and turns it into the liquid or compressed gas. and you need this water because if you're going to have people working on the moon for more than a few days as they did when the nasa astronaut was there in the 1970s. they've got

to have, they've got to have oxygen in the breeze. they've got to have water to drink and for other purposes. if you have almost any industrial process or even just cooking, you need water and you can bring it all, you can bring it from earth for a few days. you can bring uh enough to stay there for a month or 2 or indefinitely. because for every pound of water you need many more pounds of rock per month. and then you have no, you need a rock bigger than even the law, most constant place of making to, to develop the moon. to live on the moon. you need, you need water and oxygen. you can get the water from the ice. you can take some of that water and split it electrically into oxygen and hydrogen, the oxygen to breeze or to be use as the oxidizer and rocket fuel to get to home or

to go somewhere else on from the moon. so water is critical. say, do you think we should throw this or that we should exploit the water and the result is on the moon, or should we preserve the natural environment? the i think you can do both this we do what on earth. the miners don't have a great record, and i, and there are people who fear they'll have a worse record on the moon where there's no local inhabitants to have a printed line. but it's, it's almost inevitable. it may start because of political rivalry. but there are also resources near. one of the things hasn't been mentioned is the helium 3 that's a heavy and rare isotope of the gas, helium. it's apparently present in abundance in the lunar soil where it's been trapped from the solar wind that beats down on the moon continuously. it doesn't beat down on the surface of the earth because it's

a reflected by the radiation. well, some are, might need a severe helium 3 is many for this is consider the ideal fuel for future nuclear fusion plants that might solve the energy problem on earth . if we survived the climate, climate problems in time, right at the exchange has brought up a lot of points that a lot of valuable results as possibly that appeared to be on the moon. is that going to be a big question of a who owns them? who has the rights to exploit them and who can benefit from them? well 1st of all, who knew that the south pole of the moon was going to become so popular? it was the discovery of uh, water there that really started started that part of the popularity of the moon. and as the points out, this is incredibly important because of the need for the resources to explore the

rest of the solar system. but as far as ownership of the moon is concerned, you know, there have been policies in place since the 19 sixty's that talk about ownership. and the intention was that the moon was going to be very much like the research bases that add article where no one owns the moon or owns any of the planets. and so it really has been brought down to who can get there 1st to explore what resources are there. so i don't think that i don't think we're going to see any time soon. uh, any kind of, uh, lease arrangements or any kind of real estate sales or parcels that the mood or anything like that. but it all really comes down to who gets to where 1st to make and use the resources available in general. but with india at the moment's leading that race, is this a conversation that's being had in new delhi? why is the prime minister in the end of movie making space expiration stops a priority? you know, unfortunately,

this is the argument insights. the fortunately for india, in the last 60 or israel has kept us with the idea of the office space fading issues, o one model because of the search and expiration and expiration of the universe, which has been blessed by the people and the 2nd boxes. the commotion of bach while they use the space which has no dusk, every life. the space now has become and this has to be bought. bead for communication beat for the most sense, for you beat for navigation on of what was meant by governments previously. no, the public sector has also become a and even operate administrative 2020. busy managers, historically, this is an all can experience through the private sector and our nascent industry in the private the we also know queen elizabeth,

i mean we are looking at the private space of the space industry. in india, the private stall stops and they have doubled since 2020. do they support the national program or are they in conflict with it in competition with it? how does it or what can we, is everything if we're working together and one great big cause, make copy finally. well, they're totally in coordination with the national program. in fact, to me that one successful launch by the start of, of so over the launch and very soon the public, the launch. another company is waiting to big and jr's by a cd technology tv. i mean the engine at all, they are being hand hormones corded by issue it's so so when, when a situation with the call ition but we go into issues and virus or even. busy some

all new starter to be able to make satellites and not to successfully have been provided all the support from the government and from the okay, the video eric, do you want to jump in the yeah, so let me point out that with all due respect to with, with all due respect to all of the players in the, in the space round these days, we also have to keep in mind that, you know, this is also a question of national pride for every country that's involved in this. and it's also a story about technological superiority. i think that one of the, one of the things that drove the space race that has always driven space races is the desire to demonstrate a technological superiority that's held by a nation. and that's, you know, but is a, is a great source of national pride. so we can't leave out the fact that having that technological superiority in space also indicates points out and suggest to

everyone else. but you have a superior technology capability, but may be beyond everyone else. so that is also a very serious issue or consideration when we think about all the other parts and pieces of you know, wanting to do this space exploration, then you know that all those, all those altruistic pieces are nice and everything. but let's not forget the parts about national pride and texting like demonstration of technological superiority. absolutely. i think that's a fair point to that. and yes, it came in, put this in at the beginning of the discussion that there is this a sort of the parallel track of national ambition, national pride, technological advance spins as direct says. and science. do these 2 tracks go hand in hand when it comes to exploring space, and of course you've got the commercial aspects to, oh, all they. so they've been contact with each other during the vision, obviously, there's no more important to in some sense satellite launcher. then we cover the

private company space x, because it launches more satellites when every year than everybody else on earth put together, i think they don't launch more rockets than i don't think them china, but they launch rockets every week with dozens of satellites on board. the, there you get to the moon and nobody owns a place you're landing. nobody owns the place. you are exploiting. everybody else has the right to land on there. the international space agreements really were just say the other bodies in the solar system beyond there's are comments of common property. they don't lay down any principles. and if they did, it doesn't mean that we or anybody else would always. i would always follow then. your question is, whoever lands 1st, there's near one of those craters of the south pole in the moon,

where you've got continuous around the clock, solar energy available on the rim of the crater and continuous dark shadow in the bottom, where you can mark where you can live safely and mine your water. oh, wherever lands there, what have somebody lands right next to them or they casting a shadow on her solar panels. hardly encroaching on their limited deposited a vice. there's a lot of moving out there and are on a lot of known great places to land right now. and let's say that everybody's there and safe places not interfering with each other in terms of the land or their exploiting. what about communications was back to earth . what about keeping time? time run faster on the moon, then the same clock on new york. that's a problem that we're beginning to worry about coordination. what about relaying

communications? does everybody have to have their own satellite relays satellites, or getting the moon and interfering with the radio telescopes, which astronomers hope will be put on the backside of the moon, which offers a unique opportunity on the floor 0 the universe and listen in on the planets of other solar systems there, there, there needs to be of common infrastructure and how you get my arrival nations, and on a neutral nations, and private corporations driven by stockholders, it may be benign or greedy. there's a lot of human problems to be solved as i think direct was indicating absolutely dark. i just want to get to get in here before the discussion board run out of time for the discussion of what. 6 has the us in that space program, why are we not seeing america nasa trying to land on the south side of the main as

well? that is where we're heading. the art of us program that nasa it has now undertaken . it is the, you know, a 3rd of the way into it for building new rocketry and building new capitals to land on the moon is planning to do it next. or moon, or orbits in 2025. i think it is. and so they have plans to have boots on the moon in just a few years right after that. so they have a program that's a, has a program set up a program working and operating the plants to return people to the moon. in fact, whenever you talk to nasa about this, the one thing they always say is that in this year of 2025, 26 or 27, we're going to land the 1st woman and the 1st person of color on the moon. so this is their mantra about getting back to them. but i think the other thing that we should point out here are 2 aspects of this that are, you know, critically important going forward. one is that when you look at the commercial models for a space, exploration in space exploitation, there really aren't any working financial models yet. that makes sense. in other

words, yes, you can launch plenty of satellites, but who's really making money at this? you know, in a long term back basis, particularly when we talk about deep space exploration, is there a financial footing or financial model that makes sense for an independent company to spend time mining space somehow and number 2 on the other side. so as we mentioned earlier, this is challenging, space is hard, space is dangerous space is definitely one thing that could help. every one would be if this were a community endeavor, instead of a separate them different, you know, by individual countries. if we could coordinate our efforts together, we could not only share the expense, but we could share the risk as well and share the resources as well. but so far because of the fact that this is much more about national pride and demonstration of technological superiority. oh yes, and there's the research that goes along with it. you know, right now we're in a place where we're all trying to with individual and general about. do you agree

with that? do you hope for more cooperation in the future? one of india is planning to corporate with japan this month on a space program, but there is cooperation that, that sort of in bits, isn't that, don't you think the world should be in one domain where there has always been a gold rush? and if i look back up the street, oh, us spaces, we have even though the line's, that'd be the was the prize japan. so even russian had no experiences one domain with all nations at corporate or below. yes, the national break, that was one dime, a major competition or the 1st satellite, the 1st man landing on the moon and on the bottom you should see the suspicion it has to be the great example or wish. and i see question of like that in the future also, when we have to maybe be on tomorrow. okay, well on, that's

a very positive note. thank you very much to all our guests for joining us and general i know come on baths. we wish you the best of luck with the scheduled landing on this outside of the moon on wednesday. thanks all say to steve mine and derek pitts. i'm thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting a website this out to 0 dot com, the discussion to good. well, facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also turn the conversation on x. a handle is as a inside story from me laura co, i'm the whole team here is bye for now the the

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