it was a lot better and so i was hoping for it to be just good enough, but apparently it wasn't so just felt uh not very good to hold. wait another no, we just coasting. go home with a no mood. somebody sounds on his latest. we'll try to chance tempered by injury, the 400 feet of photos olympic champion finished out of the metals last year. this time will hunt dominated the race to when he's the, with somebody. so the women's pay vote produce to go middle. when is a straight is nina kennedy, an american k to me both played 4.9 meters, but missed all 3 attempts to go any higher. they could have goats with jump off, but instead decided to share the goals. you know, katie's and i'm going to go med list, she's a world terms called med list and i didn't think she would want to share it. you know, she's the absolute champion about sports. so i kind of see, you know,

such as i tell you wanna share this and she was relieved and i was relieved then. yeah i it couldn't be more of a privilege to share it with katie. and a breakthrough run saint mary. lady helena of the dominican republic and the women's 400 meters. finally claiming goals of the silvas at last use wills and the tokyo olympics. and the richardson l g 0, the is the balance is 0. these are on top stories. process the most powerful mess me if any progression is reported to have been killed in a plane crash, the kremlin is yet to confirm his death provision was listed amongst 10 people, which at the crushed just north of the okay. to the latest of the breaks, the lines of 5 nations have invited another 6 countries to join next year include argentina,

iran and saudi arabia. donald trump is expected to surrender in georgia later on 1st day for its full criminal indictment. since april, informing us president is charged with racketeering and conspiracy to overtime, the 2020 election results that those are the ends and broadway, or the polls for a 2nd day because of delays with ballot papers on wednesday is pay for them to arrive until the end of the day in many of an areas including the capsule herrera, present, m. as in mind, gaga is taking a 2nd time. japan has begun releasing radioactive waste water for me. it's because she, i'm a nuclear power plant into the pacific ocean. china has bind and bolts of japanese, the food and response, cooling the plant. so fish and irresponsible advisors increase of being baffling walled 5 to 6 days high, wins a rig native, some places which well under control. my place has destroyed several homes and calls in athens. they turn the stream is next. as temperatures hit their highest on

record, environmental leaders will gather in canada to discuss international action to combat climate change on the world to meet the 2013 goals set out to end pollution and most of buyers as far as the 7th assembly of the global environments facility on noticing of hi, i'm sending out. okay, we're going to saw this episode with the stream by meeting eric. so eric received a gunshot wound which made him catalyzed minutes that he couldn't actually use his arms. and what you're about to see is an implant going into his brain. look right now, if you don't like the side of plasm, okay, hope you have files without one. well the implant will allow him to do is to connect with a robot. and so now eric, who could use his arms and he's has, is now able to access

a robot which will pick up cops these things around. so him do what he's working on . wasn't able to do. so the 1st time you searching is eric katrinka, based on assisted so researches of native us the southern california shed. this video, this is back in 2015. so this is not new technology, but the technology is getting so much bye to. so today's episode, what does the future hold for brain employment technology? i know you have questions. i have tons of questions, but your questions, your thoughts right here. be part of today shy cuts and karen and as i get to have you on board, i'm going to ask you to very briefly and to live, introduce yourself to audience, and explain your expertise in this a brain in thought technology field. got to start a. hi, debbie. hi everyone. well, i am uh, curt hagstrom um with sync on in sync cards,

a company that's developing a bring computer interface technology. i'm a, by a medical bitrate, by medical engineer by trade. and over the last 20 years, been delivering class 3 medical devices to the, the narrow vascular market. so i'm excited to be here and have the conversation. get to have you welcome carol, please say hello to have you as around the world to look into out what you do. hi, i'm karen ramos anger and i'm a narrow tech assistant strategies. and i am trained as a narrow scientist and ran a narrow ethics institute for awhile and i've recently found it, and now i've explained can do tank and run a boutique now ethics. and so get to have you involved. hello, hello, welcome to the screen. please. great, our view is around the well, tell them who you are and what you do. hi everyone. my name is anna wexler, i'm a professor, medical ethics at the university of pennsylvania. and i run a research lab that studies the ethical league. busy and social implications of

advances in narrow sites. all right, so a guess i think the biggest challenge is separating ourselves from science, thought and science fiction. we have watched the movies with the side books type of uh somebody has a brain implant imparting the head and then they go wild and everything goes upside down at its tail tech. this is not what we're talking about. what we're talking about is brain computer interface or b, c, i tearing briefly in an accessible way. what does that mean? the great, thanks for asking. so a brand computer interface is really a communication device that connects the brain to an external computer. and there's 2 ways that that communication can happen. so one way is that the computer can sense electrical activity and send that to a prosthetic device. so an example you gave, so if someone could re compare who otherwise would be able to or the device can

work the other way, where can said signals for electrical activity into the brain to help the brain function better. i want to bring into a car. yeah, interesting what you'll doing at sink from which is trying to develop this technology so it can help people who have medical needs, physical needs. i am going to show a few people who are chatting and this is video that you shared with us. so tell us what is happening here and why it is special. let's take a step. absolutely. right, so this is an australia. and what are we seeing, hey, what are we looking at? yeah, so this is, this is one of our 1st patients in australia during the switch to trial. and these patients are actually able to move the use a digital environment. right now, you're seeing an interface on the computer. and these actions are all crated with the motor intent that they've created when their brain and this is all being signaled with

a motor and normal prospect called the sink and switch system. and so reads that motor intent. it's almost if they had their fingers. so it's the motor intent of being able to touch and move this along the computer screen story, but them read the motor intent and then it's communicated out via infrared technology to a computer. and so the individual right there was, uh, so happy to be able to sit there and be able to communicate on that computer for the 1st time and then tell his wife that he, he loved her, which was with oh, all right, just from that standpoint. so in that instance, they were use it for that communication piece. but these technologies go well beyond defending communication, i think from a utility once you be able to control that digital environment. as you can imagine, that goes to an iphone, we had our 1st patient about a month ago, control an iphone, uh, functionality. and so when you can do that, um it goes off just to the communication, say with a caregiver, but then you could do online shopping, you could communicate, you know, you could use social media, you can control your smart environment potentially. and so i think there's

a lot of utility with what this concept of the motor neural prosthetic. i mean, i think that's the big changes where it jumps from me, from science fiction. yeah. and you know, the, the sideboards to an actual medical device, and that's where, you know, were governed by the, you know, the regulatory bodies of, of the various countries in the f da here in the us. and so again, we follow the rules of the, the, you know, across 3 medical device and, and, and again, we're on a phase of where we were a research phase. now we're in that clinical phase and in, in the future, the commercial phase of the product. so very excited of seeing where that evolution over the last really 40 years, right? with, with dca has taken us today. i'm curious about what you're thinking and this is part of the challenge with brian computer interface is people wiring about as thoughts being shared quite openly. so when you see some of these experiments, the development, what are you concerned about,

or perhaps you're very happy about is going in the right direction. people being very careful. so yeah, so that's a great question. so when it comes to the ethics, you know, there's a few things that i think we should be thinking about and, and 1st, you know, for any medical device or, or even any drug, right? the 1st, the most basic thing you on a stablish is safety and advocacy, right? so that's sort of the ground level ethics. you know, these devices, these narrow technologies also raise other really interesting ethical issues such as the one you mentioned privacy, right? so what sorts of data are being captured from the brain? what can they reveal about a person's thoughts and how is that data being protected? you know, and some of these protections may fall under, you know, current medical device regulations and, and hipaa protections at least here in the u. s. right. there's certain protections for medical information, but there's other kinds of information that may not be protected by by laws like hipaa. so i think privacy is a, is a major concern, you know,

other concerns or things like the long term safety, right? so what happens when this device is implanted for, you know, a very long time, right? we're talking 203040 years inside an individual's brain. and then another other top net. what does, what does it feel like recently? so then uh, at the very beginning of the, of the show, eric's brain surgery. yeah. what does that feel like? do you know or do we know right now? so eric, how is the feeling? how does the disconnect that feeling? what have you seen, how and, and then i'll open you income and i think i wanted to, to share. so the way we experience our world is, is really filtered through our brain. so anyone who had had a catastrophic injury in the brain or loved one to his experience, bad or brain injury knows that your world and the way that you navigate is altered . so brain technology has this opportunity to really have this transformative

therapeutic potential. so if someone like you showed there has might have a loss or have had a stroke so they can't communicate anymore. now it's enabled a social life that they didn't have before. and it was my area of work used to be parkinson's disease where we have simulators put in for people to restore movement . and i watched in the operating room as we turned on the simulator, an individual who at uncontrollable movements is moved out with the changes in stimulation with electrical activity. and then there are people who have received that same kind of a deep brain stimulation to alleviate intractable and treatable depression. and their report from patients there who say that actually self report, bitcoin claim being a sideboard. but at the same time would say that their humanity was actually restored by having this device. they now can live their life to the fullest and at the at best. i think that's where we're a future. we're striving for technologies that can help empower people to live

their most, their full list and their best lives. so on you change last cool, all in an hour and is listening to our conversation. and i will describe this as a nightmare, b, c, i's. the night back and can be highly dangerous. pushing monitor to get that instant via that comes from members of the public. do you understand that and how do you address it? yeah, it's actually for me. um, i can see the, the, the concern because i think it's whether it's the, the, the, the, the media or even within movies. you know, this is a deep tech net technology in a very, on the forefront of technology. and i think karen karen and explained it very well about some of the concerns and some of the, the things that we need to continuously look at as far as all this technology evolves. but when i look at, you know, this application to, to humans, we're, we're talking about a very specific population. and these are patients that are, are locked in what considered locked in. they have a less, a very progressive diseases. and this is where they,

they had no longer have functions of their, their hands, their feet such as stephen hawkings. and so this gives them that back, that independence. so when you have that type of severe paralysis, and there's actually more piece of people than you think there's over 5000000, i think that in that severe paralysis around the world. so there's a lot of people out there that i think we'd like to regain that independence, the individuality, be able to, can you? yeah, be able to get back to their daily livings to some degree. and so when i look at that, that's where we're focused. that's what our mission is to help the very patient focused and to ensure we, we create that independence for that patient. and so i think it's a, we're a very long way from that's being applied to enable body person in, in here at st. ground. again we're, we're our, our focus, you have to go through that critical path and the, the end, the regulated path. and so it's very important. there's utility and functionality for, for patients out there. oh no. go ahead. yeah, i, i think the fear or there are just that instinctual thought, like, oh my god, right, what's going to happen? we have, besides,

i think that comes from this idea of, of a technology being able to potentially read our thoughts. and it's boring to say that we're not there yet. we're not completely reading thoughts at the moment. but you know, i think it's also important to point out that when we think about reading thoughts, it's important to think about what can be inferred about us right now. from other mean. so for example, right on my phone, right, there's location data that people can take. there's my browsing history is g mail, right? google has my e mails that have a whole profile and me so there's so much already based on my digital trail that can be inferred about my private life, and there's currently not good protections for that sort of data. so for me, the fear actually starts there from, from, from everything that's already being gathered about me. and so i wouldn't say that privacy with brand computer interfaces is not a concern. it is a concern, but i think we have to start from, you know, all the information that's already being currently gathered about us. some of our viewers are listening to this conversation, watching this conversation and saying what is this?

so anything to do with, you know, must, can new and, and can, you know, most can new. and then cuz is one of the private companies who are looking into brian computer interface. i'm gonna show you part of the live test that they did on november, the 30th. so a little while ago. and what you will see here is a monkey slipping on. i think it's like a been not a shake. so that's what's in its monkey's mouth. but he's gonna bring an implant in his brain and he is asking for snacks. and then along comes a little tablet and he decides which that he wants to have. this is you have to believe or if this is actually happening. so you have to believe the science cuz what i'm seeing is the video and i, i'm a little skeptical as to the monkey really asking for those snacks and who's to say it's a monkey. doesn't think about snacks every 60 seconds anyway. so i feel that the system issues every that's just because i'm, i'm probably a little bit skeptical here. but there's a,

a point that came from one of our view is who wonder about experimentation and experimenting on animals is not just what happens in this field of science. do expand on animals before you go to humans. anna, can you stop for sure. uh, so the answer to that is yes, usually experiment on animals before you go to humans and you usually start with a smaller moles and then you, you proceed to mammals. before you get to humans, you have to establish certain, you know, safety and reliability, even in the animal studies before you can move to humans. um, the reports that have come out about the animal you said narrow link i would say are concerning. and they're concerning, mostly because of the number of animals that, again, if these reports are correct, that are being used. so the number of animals that were used i, i forget the exact number in the reports, but it was far more than it's typically used in a study. another concerning point here is that there are a number of internal reports that were brought up. so there were employee

complaints again, allegedly about what was going on at another link and to employees according to again, the reports actually left the company because of concerns about how animals are being treated. so from, you know, from the outside, again, based on the investigative report, it does seem like what was happening at a narrow link was actually going a bit further. and i mean that not in a good way a bit further than what's normally done. uh, you know, at then research companies i want to, yeah. and, and turn back to the important point that and i started with to about notions of, of mind reading. i mean, i was just so this miss narrative popular mirror, the narrative of mind reading and even perpetuated, i think through the, the ely most, you know, kind of 5 by fiction that so pervasive these days around brain uploading and downloading. but just isn't grounded in the reality of the science of today, and we're constantly fighting against that even if that's

a desire. it's not where we are. and what is mentioned by kurt and the technology that we have for brain. ready coding which is, it is actually a really involved you asked what is a patient for to experience they experience a lot of effort. they experience a deep relationship with the researcher where they have to learn how you most of us are very lucky and that we can just think we want to say something and it comes out without any processing or, or real efforts. these patients have to really concentrate and figure out how to connect that to the technology and then get it to do what they want to. i mean this is, this sometimes can take years for some of these prosthetic devices to, to work. so it's not like there's this $1.00 to $1.00. i want to move. i want to talk this thing comes out it's, it's actually quite difficult. so we're really far from being able to do that good night. and i do actually, you know, care and it's a couple of things that i love to make just a couple of comments around, you know, just with, you know, the lawn mosque. and i'm not here to comment on

a narrow link at all. but what i say in general, and especially how they, they're testing and stuff. but what i say in general, i think competition in more people that are focused on this and developing these technologies is a good thing for patients. i think at the end of the day, and so i think that just broadly speaking of, of how we're looking at this and, but we obviously have to follow the, the regulated and the rules of a governance of the countries that we reside in and things like that, um, as far as like how, you know, how close and how reality, i think, how close we are. um, you know, our technology is, is, again, a very minimally invasive. it's a, it's not tethered to anything or a computer or anything in, in, within a short period of time. so i agree that it's almost like running a bike. you have to train your body, thought you might do something that it doesn't say like a motor intent toronto probably it was showing animation because some of this is you kind of have to see it to really appreciate it. so we've got an added be great to me. yeah. let's play this animation. and then you can tell us what when looking at because it really helps. here we go. yeah, yeah. so this is the,

this centroid device right here that's up in the, uh, the sinus or the vein up above the motor cortex of the brain. so then the thing about the, the stench road in the st crunch switch system is that we navigate up into the brain to the blood vessels. and that allows a very minimally invasive approach to apply this type of b, c. i technology at once, that is once that recording head is in that vein above the motor cortex, we can now read those rod digital signals, motor intense signals. in matter of fact, you can see the device right here that i'm holding. so it's just like a step like device. how's it, what's in front of your face? cut. yeah. can you see it at all? put it in front of your face because we see if that was it. yeah. very got re see it and okay. yeah, yeah. and so this is, it looks like a sent in spend to been used for uh, you know, probably the last 20 years, especially in the coronary space and stuff. so we've balance the, the technologies that are out there to be able to go through the blood vessel and read the signals from the brain. and again, within a very short period of time,

we're talking weeks that the person now has the, you know, there is some training. so we do have that like fuel the engineers to give support to help the training to utilize the system. but it actually comes online within weeks and the patients able to do action using this utility of the system within a short period of time. again, usually within the 1st, like $3.00 to $6.00 weeks, they're, they're up and running and able to at least do some functionality. and i think that's, we're learning as we go. and there's going to be more functionality. but we're excited because again, this has real utility for a fairly quickly um with this technology. i mean, like you've got a question, go ahead. yeah, i just wanted to underscore is i, i should to have no financial relationship with any companies in this space. but what's interesting about saint crohn right, is that they're, you know, one of the only companies, if not the only company that's avoiding direct neurosurgery. so i think what they're, they're doing is, is really unique. and they've actually been able to make a lot of progress. and i would say in terms of clinical trials they're, they're further along then uh, no language maybe have gotten more attention in the,

in the media. but they're actually, you know, the st. crohn's doing really the work on the ground in the works. so that's, that's why i and then as the what interesting, yes. because i think that, you know, i, i think it's, we near the end of our time, you know, lot of these technologies that you have to implant. they're going to be happening and very uh, you know, limited situation swift, a clinician or a researcher, and i think maybe something to be on the radar of yours or this product. this proliferation of commercially available wearable headsets in your ear pieces that claim to record brain activity. and actually the quality of most of those technologies is course it's poor. but that really hasn't impacted their sale or deployment. and despite maybe not even have accurately recording from the brain, or really being able to derive much information about the brain, their beings, we're seeing them used in schools. we're seeing them being used in workplaces. and

we've also heard reasonable concerns from parents and employers or employees. we're wondering if there is going to be discrimination based on information that might not even be real, but spot to be real, that counties i'm right. if i might let me, let me just share this question with you cuz i have who was thinking the same thing . so joe says, this technology needs to be highly regulated and it should be done very strictly. is that what you're saying that it's out there and maybe not that great at it's already in schools and in educational institutions to yeah, i, i think so right now this is something that, and i said to there are some regulations that these kinds of devices that collect biological or biometric information would fall under, but it's these inferences, these, these predictions of about people and how they might behave and how they might think those are the types of things that aren't really protected yet. and there are a lot of, there's erica enter, governmental trans national efforts right now, working on looking for those gaps and regulation. but right now it's really up to

the, the company and the end user. and to, to kind of have the end user needs to have good hygiene, look through their look at what they can about their technology, all of those data policies that they can. some of them are inscrutable, that, that's a problem. and for companies to be really looking ahead at the 1st misuse that they might anticipate with their technologies and to try stay ahead of that. let me just give out or yes. one more example of what brain computer into facing can look like . and this is from a company called sent attack. and what you see here is a gentleman called tivo. he's in a french trial, as she is, has a, a brain improper which will then into face with a suit. which will mean you can see an extraordinary that tivo, who taught quote, on aided is able to walk. what else is this technology able to do for you?

look ahead into the future. what's possible in a sentence, i'm going to go to all 3 of the predict the future ada. what is possible to what's possible, i think, you know, a lot faster communication for people who need it. so we're talking about both healthy, you know, both people who need assistive technology so, so individuals are disabled, but perhaps even healthy individuals communicating right with the computer. uh, interesting cameras what is possible in the future in a sentence? i think these irreversible diseases and disorders that we've seen are going to be reversible, like we see walk again. and i also think we're going to see an inner connection for everybody between brain devices and their internet of things. home, like with alexa and all that, i, wow. alexa in our brain was possible not in your brain connected to the 2, i rang faster for the correction professor. and good, good. yeah,

from my perspective, what i see in the future is, you know, thought thousands of people are patients that, that have disabilities now regaining independence in multiple ways. whether it's smart, you know, controlling smart environments, mobility that was a great technology just showed in there, just communicating with loved ones and getting back that functionality in their lives. so, and i don't think it's too far off, you know, within the next 10 years, i think we're, we're targeting thousands of people being able to utilize systems such as b c, eyes. so i'm really excited about it. it is such an exciting field of technology and development and bring computer in to face technology. i'm wondering how much it may cost us and if it will be available for everybody, but at least a conversation for another day. for now, i will say thank you to cut and having an ally and use your excellent questions, really appreciate you. so you next time,

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