basically out of teams, does the un fits the purpose was like many critics sites just pump solution doesn't get anywhere near enough done to the amount of money that is put into a hard hitting into abuse. do you think that to the lines of washington enough for money to go on its own and built it's on thoughts providing on for centuries, people have been taken care of are. so i have every confidence that future generations will do it as well via the story on told to how does era denmark is moving to band the burning of polling that follows protests over the desecration of the, for on. but is this enough to appease anger in the most from world and how can it be balanced with the freedom of expression? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm sure. it's a controversial bill that could deepen political divisions and denmark. the proposal to ban the desecration of holy books is being considered after a series of burnings of the court on the government has condemned the incidents and the small groups behind them. but despite the criticism they're protected under denmark's freedom of speech, lots, critics say the government is giving up on its liberal values to quickly. so will the bill have enough support in parliament to move forward? and will it strike the right balance at home and in wisdom countries? we'll get to this and more with our guests in a moment. but 1st this report by contra lopez for the yeah, it's a bill about politics and religion. denmark's government is considering a measure that would make it illegal to bring copies of the koran with fines and up to 2 years in jail. it's an attempt to de escalate tensions with most. i'm countries after small groups recently tested, created the muslim holy book,

and quoted a lot of who freedom of expression is the cornerstone of democracy and demo. that's why the government is aiming for a limited and precise legal intervention. the bill will make it kind of shipping publicly the crumbs the bible, all the tour on to improve. the bill is already being criticized with some saying the government is getting up on his liberal values. most notably, freedom of speech in the things people, spotty reassembly against limiting the freedom of expression. it's a corner stone in any vibrant modern democracy. threats against national security are reported to have increased in denmark following a series of recent criminal and burnings. the bill is not just about optics as the government, but about security at home and abroad from human to a wreck in the netherlands. many protesters have called on european governments to

take a tougher stance on such actions. more than diplomacy is at risk, the outreach, but also damage economic ties between denmark and muslim nations. especially with the ones in the gulf shut off, the throne is out on a monthly campus in our constitution. so we will defend it until all day, just to the core on the neighboring. sweden is also considering ways to limit the burning of holy books. after similar incidents, along with other european governments, it will be monitoring denmark's vote. and the reaction that provokes within and beyond its borders. katia lopez again for insights. story. the. all right for more on all of this, i'm joined by our guests in washington. dc is holiday doing. professor of law at arizona state university colleges. author of the new crusades is i'm

a phobia and the global war on muslims. and copenhagen is parent, beck, thompson, and former denmark bureau chief reuters and author of a book on the prophet muhammad cartoon crisis and william sound. massachusetts is for the half of the distinguished visiting professor and william's college, but he is also co editor of the annual european assignment for be a report, a warm welcome to you on thanks so much for joining us today on inside story parent . let me start with you today, so it didn't work. government says that it will move to criminalize the public mistreatment of religious objects where it is public opinion in denmark. stand on all of this right now. um i think it's fair to say that you have but, but that's a good support of the most recent pull i so that's it. ready it shows up more than 50 percent. i actually supported the. ready new legislation so um, so i think there's that support and also people, i mean no it doesn't shoot. busy also saying that part of the ground is so is,

is the simply at the, to jupiter at that, that not something we are in favor. so i think that support on this one. how did denmark has struggled to stop these these burnings of a quote on um, but they are permitted undercurrent freedom of expression laws. so how could a law like this actually be balanced with the freedom of expression? well look, i think, i think considered freedom of expression in denmark as not only enabled but intensified as long as will be at large, but also these ground burnings. we see how rascals pilot, in has really capitalized on the unrestrained freedom of expression, context within denmark. so a policy like this, which is really unprecedented in western europe. i think, you know, checks. it puts a real samuel check editors to kind of really, um, you know, deviant expressions as of as almost all the a, specifically, these cron burnings from taking place in inside a more violence against a really vulnerable muslim population. within the country. specifically,

in large cities were muslims tend to reside in denmark. for the, let me ask you a different version of the question that i just opposed to economy. you know, officials in denmark are saying that this must all be done within the framework of constitutionally protected freedom of expression. from your perspective, is that something that can actually be done? i think it's a different uh, difficult task to be honest because on the one hand yes um, i mean this is clearly an infringement. the freedom of speech on the one hand, especially given that denmark has just get rid of its blasphemy loss of something that you find still in a couple of european countries. so it's not the most widespread system of regulation. but the other side, i think, what is really important to consider here is really like the context in which that happens. obviously, the history of a book burnings is there is a long history of book burnings in europe. right?

and there is the one hand, this book burning off, you know, the branding of the books of the powerful. so it's often seen as a, as a sign of bravery. but on the other hand, there is, um and, and then this is really what speaks to this very specific context of the damage or at large the european muslim communities. the crime runnings is more of a symbol like a symbolic accumulation of people who are already which tends of structure racism. so the question really here is like, you know, what is the cross burning standing for an i believe the way we are experiencing it in these days is more, you know, the humiliation of the already downtrodden of people who are suffering various kinds of legal restrictions and all discrimination, even from the institution of sites here, i saw you nodding along some of what fried was saying there. it looked like you might have wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. yeah, i think that's that's it's. ready it is important to know which. busy that's,

that's, that's the, i think it's, it's the why do you want the, why be among the people is see that this is, this is a very small off of a file, right? national is, i mean, some would even say the to do it takes doing this and most people in the, my goal. so she says julia morley, some immature provocation. so it's, it's, it's, um, it's, but we have to get in that perspective. and that's also why i think people are up backing up on this on this propulsion from the government because that's. ringback that's the most of my colleagues here now, and the panel here says that's and that's freedom of speech is, is that's 14 denmark, i mean is, and, and, and, and, and guess so the political debate says that this could be an infringement of that. but, but i think that people are having a more pragmatic attitude towards this. i mean it's, it's, they find it. so mean it's, it is on the image or presentation and people out of fine. but if we can somehow

stop that up here, let me just also as can you just mentioned that here. these are small groups of people. you said that are, that are desta creating the court on there in, in denmark and the officials have said that as well. what kind of numbers are we talking about? when we say these are small groups like how small a little 2 or 3 people also me? i mean we had a, we had the gospel pedal them. who did that, but now we have at this moment 5, right? national are these parts you who are me somewhat say that. so you can, you have 15 minutes of fame on this show. it is a very, very small match and a large group of so it's, it's by no means i'm an expression of sort of widespread ads. troops in denmark, i mean people can disagree on immigration and obviously it's not. and. busy of that, but this is lisa sort of not being rude, it's a bad attitude and, and, and that feeling about about the koran and, and he's not nodded. or how does this move by the danish government to criminalize,

put on burning in the burning of other holy books? i mean, is this something that would be enough to appease anger in the muslim world? i don't know if it would be entirely enough to as you know, sort of like, you know, address or rectify the structural racism and as long a whole be engine marketing across western europe. and i think it is a really strong symbolic stance of the bill. passes to say that, hey, you know, the, these kind of d being put on burdens will not be sanctioned by law. and i think one thing that's really important to know is when we think about freedom of expression being a cornerstone of any democracy. so it's free exercise of religion, right? those to kind of go hand in hand, freedom of conscience. and it's important to know how to deviate acts of freedom of expression. really eat in a road, the ability of specifically vulnerable religious groups to freely express their religion. and we've seen denmark how that's been, you know, undermined and eroded for muslims in that country for

a long time. so for muslim majority countries, you'll see a lot like this. and again, it's our presidents and in western europe because laws like this haven't been enacted in countries like the u. k or, and france, for instance. it is, i think, a, a really strong 1st step towards conveying to most some communities but also muslim majority countries that government denmark is really making the attempt to address a structural racism within the country. i saw that, let me also just follow up with you and ask you, you know, when it comes to denmark's foreign policy, especially in relation to muslim majority countries, what kind of a bind have these put on burnings? put denmark in? yes. all right, i think it's a really good question because it's sort of like i just the, you know, isolated what, what is the genuine motives of denmark introducing a bill of its kind. and it seems to me from some of the reading and research that i've done the last 24 hours that you know,

foreign policy is the central driver. the deputy minister of denmark is even stated explicitly that the cron burnings of point denmark and are really difficult situation in foreign policy conversations with most the majority countries, specifically, you know, very influential are very economically powerful. most the majority countries, countries like the u, a guitar way, saudi arabia. so in many respects this is really compromise denmark's ability to, you know, sort of position itself and very advantage ways on the foreign policy front. um and it's real recognition on the part of the kind of the government specifically this minister was in office right now to say that if we don't address what's going on with these cron burnings in his lot of will be a domestically then this might really, you know harm or economic and political interest on the foreign policy context for these i see you reacting to a lot of what i thought it was just saying there it looks like you want to jump in, so please go ahead as well. yeah, i mean, i think, you know, this,

this whole for the policy from does a very important aspect. because i think on the one hand, you know, denmark and the political leaders and in denmark, i'm sure very much where still the end and still remember the days in 2005, when there was to this whole co total crisis. and when this newspaper it lends post and published code separately called terms of the problem, how many pieces upon him were um this far in all most demonstrations and muslim clerics and countries jumped on this trade. so i think um, you know, of a reading definitely considering the, the, the, the comic aspects of this contract. let's see. and there is one thing that really, birds me a little bit because obviously, you know, the whole koran brand new thing has become a very globe. busy a discussion and it's very easy to grasp, right? it does not need a lot of analysis, but really what, what i'm worried about is, at the very same time, denmark has also been at the forefront of some of the countries in europe that are

implementing institutionalized, as long a phobia. and i'm speaking especially specifically reminding listeners of the so called catalogue that has been changed in terms of the naming. there is a lot of proto racial profiling problems. some advantage most sims, are experiencing. there is even a category that has been implemented in citizenship law, which is called the men out. which piece of physically distinguishes the already very racist category of non westons from middle east, north africa, pakistan, and turkey. and there are so many other structural problems and what i really of already is like that we are not, not looking at these issues that are really harming the most and communities in denmark, but rather really sticking only to this very symbolic level, coronado, and which is a and i fully understand people's feelings are heard, the cetera. but this is not, but i think the real main problem that most students are facing in countries like

denmark impair. um, i want to ask you about something that was mentioned there by for the he talked about the cartoon crisis of the 2006. that's when the danish newspaper publish cartoons fixing the problem, how many were considered to be blasphemous up. and i want to ask you, because you wrote a book about that price, the want to ask you, how is that impacting all of this right now? um, how much is all of that in the minds of lawmakers now who are proposing to change the laws when it comes to banning the burning of holy books? well it is, it obviously is that plays a role and i think they have. ready learned something from that, from that crisis back in 2006. so at that time we stood very firm on the freedom of speech and the government refused to meet with with the but the summer the representative from that must keep my community is and that, that much and all those and, and now this is seen those as will be we are putting

a hand for to you and censorship, so to, and we should, we certainly learn from that and then, and that's what she now and, and, and then i'm, i mean, the cultural crisis statement bases. this is something i would say it's different this time around. that's i think in 2006, it was a shoot to topic. it was a much it was your very hot chopping and the date was everywhere. you went, i mean dina parties at schools and the every well, everybody talked about, we were actually quite shocked on the reactions, remember around the world and that piece time or what we're seeing now is that people do have a more pragmatic attitude to which it's not a big issue here as such, i'm all the ordinary people. so it's, it's, it's, it's, um, obviously the government takes it very seriously and that's also why, but she has this, this, this proposal product um, but so i mean, basically in the george oriented among ordinary people it's, it's, it is not a big issue in the same way was in 2006, but again, the polls show support,

which tell me, but again, it's important, you know, i know you probably want it to colleagues, you told about desktop to racism and stuff like that. but that's, it's, it's, it's not in that context. if this is gene and deadlock, i mean this is, people know that it's a few. a file, right? national, at least a radical people doing something that, that, that kitchen with basically to just to publication. and to get some, some time, but that's how those people see this pretty nice how you're just now reacting once again to a lot of what pair was saying. so i'm going to give you the opportunity to jump in again. oh yeah, i mean, i totally agree um with yeah, i mean uh, i think the act of the koran brand name has always been and then still is very much um you know, in the history of, of the last 20 years of his lemme phobia around the globe has been an act of, of the very far right and,

and sometimes also the left is to be like just to be fair. it came originally actually from, from, from gay activist in new york. this it was, this was the, what it was in when did in the end. and then you this level for the industry. um and, and, and i think really, i mean one of the things that we also always have to keep in mind. you know, i like i am originally from austria, right. and one of the things that we remind ourselves of when we hear a lot like the broadening in general is that this very famous saying a from a poem of henry china, where he said those who brought in books will and upfront people and you know, it is something that we, we speak about in the context of the, not the regime when the jews like before the jews or when i went to the concentration camps. so this is something in modern european history. i think the whole book running has a very, very,

very bad connotation. and i believe that the overall debate that we should have here really is like to what extent is the support, even if it's marginal of these sorts of acts is representing the sentiment that is out there. and, and, and, and a lot of countries were muslims hasn't been what if i'd like for decades like through the war on terror and individual education all as long as their religion in itself. this has led to something in the end, it always expands the notion of what is permissible. and i think for the dentist society as any other society, to you know, having these, these debates about like wherever, where is the border, where is, or what should we stop allowing something to happen is, is an absolute necessary discussion that has to take place. but again,

at the back of a larger problem in which we are finding out a sales kind of let me ask you about another aspect to all of this. um, if this move by danish politicians to criminalize the burning of holy books. if this actually were to pass in parliament and to become law, is there a concern that this might give far right groups more ammunition when it comes to spreading their message? i mean, is there a worry that it could somehow play into their hands? yeah, some respects, you know, before i answer that question specifically, i want to sort of address some of the points my colleagues made. i think, i think it's dangerous to sort of like minimize these koran burnings as being the, you know, acts or, you know, public performance is a small french view on the far right. especially when you look at the trans national effect of these ground burnings. look right rasmus paul, it in,

um winter to sweden did the crime burnings and concentrated with some communities in stock on places like ranking me. and he's been doing so for years. and as a consequence of, you know, his, you know, while activism is given real fuel to the rise of a sweden democrats in that country, the rise of his mom, a phobia. so beyond these cron burnings as being the performances of a far few, they really drive and fuel real far right. movement stuck in co, out government, not only in denmark, but in places like sweden. so it's important to frame that these ground burnings of hatch brands, national and regional impacts, you know, in scandinavia specifically. so definitely, so i think so i think responding to your question, you know, elements like paladin and sweden, democrats, you know, in sweden beyond denmark far right. actors can say low bills like bids demonstrate how these muslims are coming into more countries and taking over and impacting our laws and compromising our freedom of expression. they can offer real symbolic,

you know, an emblematic examples of how muslims are changing danish and sweeter society. which can then have the effect of energizing and, and then mobilizing these far right groups. so the bill, you know, hopefully does pass, can have in some respects a negative effect. to add more fodder for these far right groups to, to really signal and say, hey, these muslims are coming in and changing our laws, changing our policies. we gotta stand up and do something. how did let me ask you this? you talked about what you said that these koran burning is going to have a transnational impact that they can have regional impacts beyond the borders of, of denmark. i want to ask you if, if this were to become law, this move into a band, the burning of holy books in denmark, if it does pass parliament, if it becomes law, would we see other european governments take similar steps going forward? i think potentially so on. i think i think for read can respond to this question

specifically writing on your european as lama phobia. i think there are some, some abberation, you know, countries like france for instance, ronald. see i don't think along this time would be inactive. but perhaps across scandinavia, you know, places like sweden, if the political sort of dynamics change. i think there is a, you know, a less entrenched form of as momma phobia and scandinavian countries, which historically, specifically sweden, right? which have been more inclusionary when it comes to immigrants and religious minorities like muslims. but it's important to note that western europe is by no means a model late. and in some countries, a lot like this in my opinion, would be uh, you know, on imaginable in the short term. so for the, let me ask you, then do you think from your vantage point that if there's this, would it become law in denmark? are we going to see more european governments take similar steps and try to pass similar lots? i actually actually agree with what has just been said. i think there is no reason

to believe that. i mean, there are couple of countries that, let's say i'm more inclined towards a dominant christian denomination where you already have those sorts of legislations take for instance, austria, germany who do have like blasphemy laws. and then the. busy busy the, the large bulk of european countries is very far away from that. so i don't believe that denmark would be what, you know, sparks such a trend all over europe. and i think one of the important aspects here also is the political dimension of the whole debate. i mean, that's especially the case for sweden and it's uh, intention to become a member of nato, which is still, you know, they are still bogged in and so a president ridge of type go around has agreed. so the, uh the, the national parliament has to approve that decision. so it ends in p clearly some said like, you know, this will only happen, um,

probably when uh if there's something done in, in regards to the p k. k. but those are to the chronic runnings. so i think this to you politically, as i mentioned, is one important aspect, especially for this country may be in countries in terms of the current crisis going on within europe. and in regards to russia's attack on your print pair, we don't have too much time left. let, let me ask you 1st. um, do you believe that uh the move to, to enact this legislation. denmark is this, have the potential to deepen political divisions in the country? no, i don't think so. and i have to repeat myself again. i mean, it is the, i mean it is the work off a few people to walk. busy as much in our lives and you as customers that haven't been able to when to speak. but again, he, i mean it's, it is, i don't think it's sort of a piece of a big trend or something. i mean, it is the work of a few few people doing that and um, i know, i don't,

i mean we have always been discussing this and then we have had this discussion. i mean, it ended up, i mean, i'm now suite a because of the, as i said, they didn't like, we've had this debate about the immigration for, for many years. i think denmark is 20 years handle of sweden now it's coming to suite. and that is a suite has been more intrusive for many years of them. and now they have some, some social political issues will probably set that up. it's completely natural. what was she on the political scene with, with the rise of the official speech that um, that democrats some pots with them. so we can get you started. i'm sorry, i'm sorry to interrupt. we just have about a minute and a half left. one last quick question for you. um, i just want to get back to the economic angle and all of this, and i want to ask you what kind of economic pressure is this putting on denmark, especially when it comes to business relationships with richard countries. it

obviously it that, that's, that's it, it has, it's, it's, it's, it's, it does have data that's, that's a part of it. but it's, it's, it's not the big thing and we still will that on the coaching prices back in 2006 in some countries. certainly, but that's not the major issue. obviously we wanted something, but the thing that we don't want to, i'm our company, our businesses. so, so that's, that's a part of it as well. but it's also a matter of, you know, what, i would risk chasing globally and protection against them at the charges of tax and stuff like that. so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, i mean, it's not only in the money here that's, that's for sure. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all our guests ought to be doing their best thompson and for the taxes. and thank you for watching . you can see the program again any time visiting our website. i'll just share a dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story. you can also drawing the conversation on x i handle is at age and side store name, how much room and a whole team here, bye for now,

the on the,

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that the level of destruction here proof just how fast the fighting has been in recent weeks, this russian or don't some on a street has been a place of pilgrimage for centuries. the the no, i'm 40 back to go. this is in. these are on now to 0 line from my headquarters until coming up in the next 16 minutes. russian investigators say they've confirmed the death of boxes, cheese. you have guinea per goshen in last week's paint brush. same bob ways, president them as a non god while wins another term. but the election result is rejected by the

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