shall auctions, organize, but daily buy the canal can now costs up to $900000.00 from an average of $400000.00. and finally, the maximum allowed to draft means that larger ships now need to send some of their cargo on land spending hundreds of thousands of dollars more to use trucks and trains. experts say it's too early to estimate how much of these added costs will translate into higher prices, but that they definitely will. but lifting curren restrictions will not be possible until sufficient rain returns. if they don't do this, we're not going to be able to attend any more ships. we're going to have to restrict the draft more. and you have to understand that is not only the canal. the water is also for the human consumption in panama city. a difficult balance that will require costly infrastructure, changes to maintain the canal viable in the future with more frequent and extreme

weather conditions. allison that i'm get as, as the panama, the, again, this is al jazeera and these are the headlines, maybe as foreign minister and not just a minute has been fired following unannounced meeting with us. really foreign minister is lee last week that meeting spots of widespread demonstrations and libya with protest as binding these really flag. libyan no makes it illegal to have an authorized discussions with his really officials. the french president says, as an boss of the geneva will stay put despite a 48 hour deadline set, by the cool, easiest for me to leave. a manual mark on says that fronts does not recognize the john to the over 3. the democratically elected president. last month for a judge in the us has set for the president donald trump's trial in washington for

march next year. but the republican frontrunner is accused of trying to overturn his electrical defeats in the 2020 presidential election. tom says, he'll appeal that trial date antibodies, even sentiment is growing and government controlled pulse of southern serious demonstrators and sway the rallying against presidents, special assets, and the routing boss policy. the city is the hotline to series through his minority community and hasn't seen many protests. so lots conflicts during serious 12 years civil war. but now, and it is growing over poor living conditions and the country's plunging economy. well, there's the headlines, but as always, our website algebra don't come, has overlays just on our top stories, stay tunes the, the stream is up next hit on challenges. there will be much when he was after that it's time for the west to we think the best option for the brain wash award and what, what those options look like. what is us strategy when it comes to iran for almost

200 years, americans have generally been stuck with 2 political choices, but cannot ever change because it comes with us politics default and like the hello, i'm rachelle kerry and for, for me. okay. and you're in the stream today we ask, what are the dangers of deep sea mining? look at the risks and rewards of mining the sea bed for renewable energy. after watching on youtube, please do join in the conversation. leave your comments and questions on our live chat, we will be reading them and we will include them in the discussion. the in the ocean live with some say are crucial resources for expanding world spring mobile energy. the discovery of mineral rich is along the sea bad a spark mining mania, but also concerned about environmental impact. pacific nations are deep si,

my name's main frontier and stand to benefit greatly. well also though being the 1st to feel any negative repercussions here. so some of those in those communities have to say the pacific ocean has long been viewed as a great empty space out of sight and out of mind. for pacific people, the ocean is our identity and the source of well being. we are the ocean and its preservation. we are preserved and is guardians, we are drawing the pacific blue line to protect our ocean in calling for a global bad against deep sea mining. the biggest challenge is that out for line governance has not represent exchange for the public consultation. we have just returned from my wage on our professional voyage and i'll move in fruit islands. we received considerable support for i was on at least 10. it used to collision one independence environment with doctor,

as well as to build out the local capacities to help inform decision it isn't worth jolla needed to protect the ocean. wanting us to discuss this from fiji marine fins, u. l, a in ocean activist and coordinator with specifics network on globalization, that's a regional organization promoting economic justice and globalization across the pacific and north delaware. so emily, a professor of energy and the environment at the university of delaware is also a former advisor on environmental and social impact assessment to the deep sea mining company known as deep grain. and i'm also in massachusetts science journalist daniel ackerman, welcome to everyone. and daniel, i'm going to start with you with the most basic question. explain to us what deep sea mining is. yeah, so deep sea mining is basically the extraction of mineral resources from the bottom of the ocean. and there are a number of different ways that it could work, but one of the most common proposals is to collect these resources called poly

metallic nodules. so the nodules form over millions of years at the bottom of the ocean and they're really rich and cobalt, nickel, copper, and manganese. a lot of these metals that we could potentially use for electric car batteries or wind turbines, are things that will feel the green economy. and so one of the more common proposals for, for getting these, these nodules which can be miles below the surface on the, on the sea floor, is basically to do the kind of vacuum cleaner system of the sea floor. and it would start with these maybe dump truck size collector vehicles that would roam around on the sea floor, collect the nodules and all the associated settlement and seawater down there and send all that material up a huge pipe to the surface where a, a ship might be, as you can see here, a ship might be waiting at the surface on the ship, the nodules themselves, those,

those valuable resource has to be extracted. and then all the remaining settlement and seawater would be flushed back into the ocean at a desk. yet to be determined. so that's kind of the basics of how this could work. okay. so that part about it being flushed back into the ocean. is that where the main concern is, what does this mean to the flesh? all those back into the ocean or? yeah, that, that is one of a number of points of environmental concern that a lot of the marine biologists are. conservationists are saying like, hey, we need to take a pause and really study this more deeply. because when you flush sediment into the deep ocean environment, that really, that could potentially really disrupt the organisms that live there. because the deep ocean is usually very clear. there's not much settlement or sand floating around in the water there. so the, the effects of flushing, that settlements are not totally well known at this point, but it could,

for example, disrupt the visual system of animals that rely on by and luminescence to communicate. or it could impact the filter for getting mechanisms of animals that basically get their food by filtering see water. so there are a number of potential concerns with that settlement plume. okay, and one more question before i bring in the other guest so it can explain what the the plumes are. you hear this term? plumes a lot as she did research on this. explain what that is. so yeah, so there are 2 plumes that would be generated by a deep sea mining operations. so the 1st is way down on the sea floor and it's called the collector plume. and it basically is all the settlement that will get kicked up into the water from the vehicle that is actually down there doing the collection of the nodules. so it's kind of this, this dust cloud near the bottom of the ocean. and then the discharge plan, which is all of that settlements and the sea water that is returned after the ship has removed the nodules at the surface, that discharge plan. you know, you might,

it's not a great analogy, but you might think of it as kind of a plume of smoke, but basically it's this extra settlement that will go back into the ocean and could potentially travel for kilometers away from the discharge site. but the exact behavior of that plume and its impacts. it's still a pretty, you know, intense topic of study for scientists right now. it'd be an intense topic on this show as well. and celine, so i want to talk more about the things that daniel says could be extracted from the c bed. and tell us more about what those are and what the idea is to you to use them for. yes, so essentially the following, metallic non use are unusual in that they have 3 metals, particularly which are well suited for the next generation of car batteries. that's being used already and many electric cars, but is likely to be also used in the future electric cars. but there are

alternatives being developed and the tree metro is a nickel, manganese, and cobalt. so it's unusual to find all 3 of these metals in one or body. so that's what is key to the non deals. okay, i'm maureen. and then when you look at the video, it, it seems almost obvious that this is disturbing, an environment that we don't know a lot about what, what do you think when you visualize what this is? as i think it's uh, we have real experiences in the pacific on the pacific ocean and particularly countries like pumping again, well, one of the 1st 4 fun countries to issue commercial license for a deep se money to not to this inc. this is way back in the early, 2010. so to begin commercial mining,

it's never been done anyway. and so we have real experience in terms of impacts. community isn't and you have report to that. these tournaments are just 30 kilometers away from polluters and communities and that the smoke c uh, to have reported what daniel describes. so we just sort of mentation of this. they call it cloudy, and that's of the ocean affecting the live before it's the political countries. and certainly cultural practices in the case of talent, fishermen haven't posted that. they've had to go further and further out. so i think there's 2 components in terms of understanding impact to are in the pacific. we know in the very early phases of exploration, what those impacts look like. and so when you look at those kinds of videos, i think just play they, they just really a visual. so those are kind of just prototypes of what these real machines would

look like. the machines could way up to 300 tons. it's almost like a land base opens where you squeak the surface. so i think the, the appreciation of working fax, when you look like the day it doesn't look quite different and hope to succeed communities. we have real experiences with exploration in our region at the, at this time. so i think we understood that. i'm sorry timothy. i just so sorry to interject maureen, but to clarify for the audience, the not in this project was in the n g territorial waters. and it was not non deals, it was actually hydro to move in a different kind of or so the impacts are different and what is being proposed currently as an international watches, it would be under the international c by the parties, regulations,

which was not the case with the b n g venture. so just to be fair, we want to make sure the audience knows that not the list is not the same, even though the same person that's linked to both projects that are the extraction is qualitative data for more and you can certainly respond as well. i think i did qualify that we have really experiences in terms of proposals for getting money within a sense, but i think daniel's point around understanding back now. and i think you could speak to the recent mit research. they came out with around settlement pools. we know that the intensive impact, the settlements can stay in the water columns for up to 400 days. it could travel distance as of about a 1400 kilometers, which we touched the edge off. a country like carry bus, which is one of the closest in terms of he said to the clarington pip, it doesn't so which you're talking about with the i. c is regulating that. so i

agree, and i did qualify the 2 differences, but my point be is that we have experiences real experiences of someone dixie. my can do, daniel, let me ask you something. so lame reference the i'm the i say the international c bed or 40. i'm obviously we're going to talk more about what types of research needs to be done and the pros and cons, but this, this is a what, what type of body is this? i mean, is this what, what, who would do oversight if this were, if there were to be more deep sea mining as it is? yeah. so the, the, i say the international c bet authority is an organization that was targeted by the united nations, specifically to both preserve and regulate industry that happens on the c bed of international waters. so one thing that the i say has been doing in recent years is trying to develop basically

a rulebook and exploitation code of exactly how countries could go about extracting mineral resources from the c bed and international waters. that discussion has been ongoing for a number of years, but there's actually been a renewed sense of urgency to that work because earlier this year, now really the island nation announced that they would like to go ahead and move forward with a plan to do deep sea mining with the subsidiary of a company called the metals company. and in that announcement by now route basically gave the international uh, c bet, authority, 2 years in order to finalize that extracts exploitation code. basically, to finalize the rule book of, of how to regulate and oversee deep sea mining. so this is something that is moving forward in the next couple of years. so lame is 2 years long enough to, to, to do the type of research that's necessary as well. keep in mind that the

international c but authority has been around for more than 20 years. so there has been activity across almost 2 decades in terms of scientific research. and i'm also very concerned. i mean, i'm an environmental planner by training and i'm very concerned about impacts as well. but i'm concerned at systems level impact. so we have a major problem with reference for climate change. we just saw the eyepiece, these 2 report issued yesterday, which has very grateful cost of what's going to happen. so we have very tough choices to make. we have some optimal solutions. do we want to manage to add a petition or do we want to find ways of mitigation to technologies like electric cars and so on. and when we do not have options, like for example, recycling, which is often presented and we all want recycling, would we not? we also need metro stocks to recycle and we just do not have the macro stops. so

that's why the 2 year timeline needs to be taken in context because it's, do you see is telling us that we have so little time to deal with the climate change? we have all these other pressure and so that's why i became interested. okay, so i think that one of our viewers on youtube is really something up send up where we are in this conversation. said, is it ethical to do this, to sacrifice the bottom of the ocean for achieving our greener world? so that's basically what we're talking about. we're trying to, we're describing doing something that is, is bad, potentially for the ocean to make life greener above the ocean. isn't that basically what we're, what we're discussing, maureen, weighing the pros and cons of that are absolutely, and i think it's a point to about climate change and it's quite critical. there's very little depreciation in terms of the ocean. as a climate regulator, it's rolling some subsequent in common and keeping common within the ocean system.

there is still outstanding research to be done on this that how deep c mining will impact those climates regulatory functions of the ocean itself. whether you can please call them into the atmosphere as a result of the coming that sits on the bottom of the sea floor. but there's also significant scientific research coming up that states quite clearly that on the sea floor itself is missing seats. now me saying is the greenhouse gas is $3.00 to $4.00 times, much, much more potent than coughing dioxide itself. so i think it's quite at if you have one of these, the same seats on the sea for scientists, a calling this a con, lactic catastrophe. if we do that, so i think on the sides and i think the best you'll, you'll central point is that, or we're not looking at the ocean as that system, which is a way to regulate the climate. and appreciate that whether we are paying only

attention to the minerals for renewable energy sources. and i think that's highly problematic, particularly for the pacific island countries in which we have a full fund of climate change impacts. so we really understand that full batteries is about, you know, those in the well see a country. so a little screen washing of this one was a problem, i think so in learning or, and you talked about, you brought it kind of, people keeps saying, this is for batteries for renewable energy. but i mean, the big car companies right now seem to not want to be involved specifically bmw waldo and google, which is not a car company, but the bigger companies say that they are not going to be using ocean line metals until we know more about actually what it is that they do, they know how would you characterize so in godaddy, just put the, just a quick introduction, you know, that has been used as an easy campaign slogan. uh,

those companies, if you read the fine print, they are really making no tangible commitment. it was an easy way for them to just make the n g o is happy in score b r point. but the reality is that if they are needing a need, like even tesla, you know, test last said for example, they'd run of their cars. that warranty was left him fine plus paid, which doesn't need whole board. well, if you read the fine print, they are still trying to source code bought from blank or a major color mining company. and it's only one model in china where they're using these. so you have to be very careful. unfortunately, the devil is in the details. when you're going through this, so let me ask you something is this uh, uh, both sides have, there's equal support for an equal against or is how, how would you balance this? or yeah, i mean, i'm not sure exactly. you know, how big the support versus opposition is on this, cuz it is a pretty new and, and developing issue to a lot of civil society groups. but i think one thing that's important to consider

here is, you know, when i talk to proponents of deep c mining, whether in the scientific community or in the industrial community, you know, one of the big pros for dave c mining would be, you know, we can offset some of the environmental damages of land based mining. so you know, mining things like copper or cobalt from a mine on land can cause degradation of drinking water quality. it can cause deforestation. there are a number of, of labor issues and including child labor in some cases. but i think it's important to, to, you know, point out that if the world as a society does move ahead with keeps the mining, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to shut down all the land based mines. so there's, there's really an open question here about whether deep c mining is going to substitute for, you know, the environmental damages that we see on land from land based mining,

or whether deep sea mining will be in addition to the land based mining operations . we do have a lot of people watching ms. linda, so just so into your moment. i'm sorry, this is what i want to bring in some of our and the rest on youtube specifically. i'm christian ross, just comment. describes this in christian's opinion, is just destroying the the c 4 um and we do have some other um, some other thoughts from people that, that are describing some of the rest of this. so we need to continue to discuss, discussed. so let's listen to that. a tipsy mining will have long lasting in fact, at the mining sites. the question is, how these local effects of the mining might potentially cost k through the larger oak ocean ecosystem. for example, to commercial fis socks? the question we, as a society needs to answer is, can be seen mining, indeed help us solve the climate crisis. and are the environmental risks of deep sea mining worth the environmental benefits of solving the climate crisis. $500.00 is designed to smoke across the world,

came together to undermine and emphasize some of those direst they know the ocean mining could accelerate species extinction. the ocean mine could create large toxic plans which are a hazard. the seed in could undercut the productivity of fisheries. and the ocean mining light embed a capacity of our oceans to store kind of carbon and help us in the fight against climate change. all right, so a really crass question that i'm just going to ask does, does the future of deep sea mining really come down to who can make money off of it? and how much i know this is being framed is something about making the environment cleaner. and we hope that that is the motivation, but sometimes doesn't just come down to that marine as well. i think they the, the key point here is that we, it is very clear scientifically that the in fact will be a reversible and in some cases they will be nobility for this system story to cover with the issue and timeframe. so i think the point about the level of home we are

willing to risk at this point when we know so little about in terms of wider premise, occasions on other productive economies if you'd like, from a point of view as pacific. so was assigned to collective withdrawing a han blue line. we think that based on the best available signs, understanding the voice that's been taken. we would, we don't think that it's the line. it has any goals to play and should have any roles to play at this kind of current point in time in history. okay, so let me try. sorry, i'm sorry, we're almost out of time and we're almost out of time and i want celine to be able to respond to that. i just see the challenges it will keep saying 500000000 scientist notes, maureen, scientists not system scientists. people who are looking at the whole planetary issue, there's become this parochialism around each ecosystem. these are well intentioned,

brilliant people with a 500 scientists, but they are not looking at this from a macro perspective. unfortunately, we do not have any free lunch in the universe. we will end up having to make some trade off. we do that on a daily basis. so i think daniel's point is very important. we have to 1st make sure if the p mining is to happen, there must be offsetting with reference to the rest of your mining. because be the only cogent case to be made is that there needs to be some reduction on trust. remind me as someone was study, trust for mining for 20 is the impacts of terrible and in terms of social disruptions far worse than the c. u. s. people are this located physically and that does not happen. one of the reasons some pacific islands like now to what interested is because they've been ravaged by dress for your mind. and they see this as an opportunity to have revenue is that i can, if i could just splint object here, aggregate the acts very, very quickly. very quickly, a look using pacific island states,

such as nato to justify and how strict keeps the money is really, really inappropriate. i think it is almost like comparing apples to pairs comparing learn baseline. and if the mind, i think this, that julie is really quite clear on impacts off keeps the money on the ocean full. so if occasions will be beyond you cannot remediate what you have destroyed visa and demick spaces can okay found anywhere. we don't even know how much that. all right. okay daniel, you are going to have the last word and very, very quickly. um i, i'm interested in a point that celine made when he talked about. there's been a lot of talk about how car companies don't want to be involved in this is a business, and do they really leave themselves wiggle room that at some point they could jump on board with this if they want to a yeah, i mean, a commercial deep sea mining operation realistically isn't going to get started for a number of years. at this point. it's hard to say whether it's 5 or 10,

but you know, years down the line if that becomes a viable source of cheap cobalt for car batteries, you know they, they could turn to that, but for the time being um and then and get us not all car companies, but sorry, what is valuable in bmw that you have made these commitments at least in the short term, to avoid metals from the deep sea. but of course those metals are not yet on the market anyway. okay. and that will be the final word, daniel ackerman, of silly marie marine andrew wiley. thank you for joining me for this conversation . we appreciate it very much. we're going to pause the conversation right now, but i'm very big. thank you. as i said to our guest and to our youtube community for joining us for this discussion, that is all for now take care. we'll see you later. the

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