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to look at the world's top business storage, from global markets to economies and a small business sales force and included security around the world if there's something that the international community your view should be doing to understand how it affects counting the cost on o g 0 the hello, i'm rachelle kerry and for, for me, okay, and you're in the stream today we ask what are the dangers of deep sea mining? look at the risks and rewards of mining the sea bed for renewable energy. after watching on youtube place to join in the conversation, leave your comments and questions. on our live chat, we will be reading them and we will include them in the discussion in the ocean live it's time say are crucial resources for expanding world spring

mobile energy. the discovery of mineral rich is along the sea that a spark mining mania, but also concerned about environmental impact. specific nations are deep si, my name's main frontier and stand to benefit greatly. well, also though being the 1st to feel any negative repercussions here. so some of those in those communities have to say the pacific ocean has long been viewed as a great empty space out of sight and out of mind. for pacific people, the ocean is our identity and the source of well being. we are the ocean and its preservation. we are preserved and is guardians, we are drawing the pacific blue line to protect our ocean in calling for a global band against deep sea mining. the biggest challenges that are providing governments has not represents as a full exchange of armies with us for the public consultation. we have just returned from a point on our professional islands. we received

considerable support for i was tina hughes, the collision, one independent environmental gotta as well as to build out the capacities to help inform decision. so is a more a toy and needed to protect the ocean. wanting us to discuss this from fiji maureen pins. you eli and ocean activist and coordinator with pacific network on globalization, that's a regional organization promoting economic justice and globalization across the pacific and north delaware. so emily, a professor of energy and the environment at the university of delaware is also a former advisor on environmental and social impact assessment to the deep sea mining company known as deep green. and i'm also massachuset science journalist daniel ackerman. welcome to everyone. and daniel, i'm going to start with you with the most basic question. explain to us what deep sea mining is. yes. so deep sea mining is basically the extraction of mineral

resources from the bottom of the ocean. and there are a number of different ways that it could work, but one of the most common proposals is to collect these resources called poly metallic nodules. so the nodules form over millions of years at the bottom of the ocean and they're really rich and cobalt, nickel, copper, and manganese. a lot of these metals that we could potentially use for electric car batteries or wind turbines, are things that will fuel the green economy. and so one of the more common proposals for, for getting these, these nodules which can be miles below the surface on the, on the sea floor, is basically to do that kind of vacuum cleaner system of the sea floor. and it would start with these maybe dump truck size collector vehicles that would roam around on the sea floor, collect the nodules and all the associated settlement and seawater down there and send all that material up a huge pipe to the surface where a, a ship might be,

as you can see here, a ship might be waiting at the surface on the ship, the nodules themselves, those, those valuable resources to be extracted. and then all the remaining settlement and sea water would be flushed back into the ocean at a desk. yeah, to be determined, so that's kind of the basics of how this could work. okay. so that part about it being flushed back into the ocean. is that where the main concern is, what does this mean to the flesh? all those back into the ocean. yeah, that, that is one of a number of points of environmental concern that a lot of the marine biologists are. conservationists are saying like, hey, we need to take a pause and really study this more deeply. because when you flush sediment into the deep ocean environment, that really, that could potentially really disrupt the organisms that live there. because the deep ocean is usually very clear. there's not much settlement or sand floating

around in the water there. so the, the effects of flushing, that settlements are not totally well known at this point, but it could, for example, disrupt the visual system of animals that rely on bio luminescence to communicate or it could impact the filter for getting mechanisms of animals that basically get their food by filtering seawater. so there, there are a number of potential concerns with that settlement plume. okay, and one more question before i bring in the other guest, so that can explain what the, the plumes are. you hear this term plumes a lot as she did research on this. explain what that is. so yeah, so there are 2 plumes that would be generated by a deep sea mining operation. so the 1st is way down on the sea floor and it's called the collector plume and it basically is all the settlement that will get kicked up into the water from the vehicle that is actually down there doing the collection of the nodules. so it's kind of this, this dust cloud near the bottom of the ocean and then the discharge planning,

which is all of that sudden it's in the sea water that is returned after the ship has removed the nodules at the surface. that discharge plan. you know, you might, it's not a great analogy, but you might think of it as kind of a little much smoke. but basically it's this extra settlement that will go back into the ocean and could potentially travel for kilometers away from the discharge site. but the exact behavior in that plume and its impacts, it's still a pretty, you know, intense topic of study for scientists right now. it'd be an intense topic on the show as well. and celine. so i want to talk more about the things that daniel says could be extracted from the c bed and tell us more about what those are and what the idea is to use to use them for. yes. so essentially the following, metallic non use are unusual in that they have 3 metals,

particularly which are well suited for the next generation of car batteries that's being used already and many electric cars, but is likely to be also used in the future electric cars. but there are alternatives being developed, and the 3 metro is a nickel, manganese, and cobalt. so it's unusual to find all 3 of these metals in one or body. so that's what is key to the non deals. okay, i'm maureen. the when you look at the video, it, it seems almost obvious that this is disturbing, an environment that we don't know a lot about what, what do you think when you visualize what this is? as i think it's uh, we have real experiences in the pacific and the pacific ocean and particularly countries like puffing again. well, one of the 1st pull from countries to issue commercial license for

a deep se money to not to this inc. this is way back in the early, 2010. so to begin commercial mining, it's never been done anyway. and so we have real experience in terms of impacts. community isn't and you have reported that these tournaments are just to come on with just away from polluters and communities in the be smoke c tape reported what daniel described. so we just sedimentation of this. they call it cloudy and that's of the ocean affecting. they live is what's the political countries and certainly cultural practices in the case of talent, fishermen haven't posted that. they've had to go further and further out. so i think there's 2 components in terms of understanding, in fact, 2 in the pacific. we know in the very early phases of exploration,

what those impacts look like. and so when you look at those kinds of videos that you just play, they, they just really they visual. so those are kind of just prototypes of what these real machines would look like. as the machines could way up to 300 tons, it's almost like a land base opens where you squeak the surface. so i think the, the appreciation of working fax, when you look like the day it doesn't look quite different and hope to succeed communities. we have real experiences with exploration in our region at the, at this time. so i think we need to understand that. i'm sorry, timothy a just so sorry to interject maureen, but to clarify for the audience, the not in this project was in the n g territorial waters and it was not non deals . it was actually hydro to move in many different kind of or so the impacts were

different and what is being proposed currently as an international waters big wouldn't be under the international c by the parties regulations, which was not the case with the b n g venture so just to be fair, we want to make sure the audience knows that not the list is not the same, even though the same person that's linked to both projects that are the extraction is qualitative data for maureen. here, if you can certainly respond, it was, i think i did qualify that we have really experiences in terms of proposals for getting money within a sense. but i think daniel's point around understanding getting back now. and i think you could speak to the recent mit research that came out with around settlement tools. we know that in terms of in fact the settlements can stay in the water columns for up to 400 days. it could travel distance as of about a 1400 kilometers, which we touched edge off a country like cube us,

which is one of the closest in terms of he said to the clarington pivot doesn't. so which you're talking about with the i. c is regulating that, so i agree and i did qualify the 2 differences, but my point b is that we have experiences real experiences of someone to see my can do, daniel, let me ask you something. so lame reference the, i'm the i say, the international c bed or 40. i'm obviously we're going to talk more about what types of research needs to be done in the pros and cons. but this, this is a what, what type of body is this? i mean, is this what, what, who would do oversight if this were, if there were to be more deep sea mining as it is? yeah. so the, the, i say the international c bet authority is an organization that was targeted by the united nations, specifically to both preserve and regulate industry that happens on

the c bed of international waters. so one thing that the i a say has been doing and recent years is trying to develop basically a rulebook and exploitation code of exactly how countries could go about extracting mineral resources from the c bed and international waters. that discussion has been ongoing for a number of years, but there's actually been a renewed sense of urgency to that work because earlier this year now really the, the island nation announced that they would like to go ahead and move forward with a plan to do deep sea mining with uh, subsidiary of a company called the metals company. and, and that announcement by now rule basically gave the international uh, c bet, authority to years in order to finalize that extracts exploitation code. basically, to finalize the rule book of, of how to regulate and oversee deep sea mining. so this is something that is moving

forward in the next couple of years. so lame is 2 years long enough to, to, to do the type of research since necessary as well. keep in mind that the international c, but the thought of d has been around for more than 20 years. so there has been activity of foss, almost 2 decades in terms of scientific research. and i'm also very concerned. i mean, i'm an environmental planner by training and i'm very concerned about the impacts as well. but i'm concerned at systems level impact. so we have a major problem with reference refinement change. we just saw the eyepiece needs to be report issued yesterday, which has very grateful costs of what's going to happen. so we have very tough choices to make. we have some optimal solutions. do we want to manage to adaptation or do we want to find ways of mitigation to technologies like electric, cars and so on. and when we do not have options, like for example, recycling,

which is often presented. we all want recycling, would we not? we would need metro stocks to recycle and we just do not have the medical stuff. so that's why the 2 year timeline needs to be taken in context. because it's, do you see it's telling us that we have sold liquids? dimes, we're dealing with the climate change. we have all these other pressure. and so that's why i became interested. okay, so i think that one of our viewers on youtube is really something up send up where we are in this conversation. said, is it ethical to do this to sacrifice the bottom of the ocean for achieving our greener world? so that's basically what we're talking about. we're trying to, we're describing doing something that is, is bad, potentially for the ocean to make life greener above the ocean. isn't that basically what we're, what we're discussing, maureen, weighing the pros and cons of that is absolutely, and i think it's a point to about climate change and it's quite critical. there's very little

appreciation in terms of the ocean as a climate regulator. it's rolled in terms of sequestering common and keeping common within the ocean system. there is still outstanding research to be done on this that how deep c mining will impact the climate regulatory functions of the ocean itself, where the agent released carbon into the f messina. as a result of the comment that sits on the bottom of the sea floor, but there's also significant scientific research coming up that states quite clearly that all of the c 4 itself is missing the seats. now missing is the greenhouse gas is $3.00 to $4.00 times, much, much more potent than carbon dioxide itself. so i think it's quite a, if you have one of these, the same seats on the sea for scientists, a calling this a con, lactic catastrophe. if we do that, so i think on the slides and i think the best you'll, you'll central point is that,

or we're not looking at the ocean as that system, which is a way to regulate the climate. and appreciate that whether we are paying only attention to the minerals for renewable energy sources. and i think that's highly problematic, particularly for the pacific island countries in which we have a full fond of climate change impacts. so we really understand that full batteries is about, you know, those in a well see a country. so a little screen washer of this one was a problem. i think so for any or you talked about, you brought it kind of people keeps saying this is for batteries for renewable energy, but i mean the big car companies right now and seem to not want to be involved specifically, bmw, volvo, and google, which is not a car company, but the bigger companies say that they are not going to be using ocean line metals . and so we know more about actually what it is that they do. they know,

how would you characterize so in got it, just put the, just a quick interjection. you know, that has been used as an easy uh, campaign slogan. uh, those companies, if you read the fine print, they are really making no tangible commitment. it was an easy way for them to just make the n g o is happy in score b r point. but the reality is that if they are needing a need, like even tests, like, you know, test last said, for example, they'd run on their cars, they're going to use lithium fine phosphate, which doesn't need whole board. well, if you read the fine print, they are still trying to source pull bar from blank or a major color mining company. and it's only one model in china where they're using these. so you have to be very careful. unfortunately, the devil is in the details. when you're going through this, so let me ask you something is this uh, uh, both sides have, there's equal support for an equal against or is how, how would you balance this to yeah, i mean, i'm not sure exactly. you know,

how big the support versus opposition is on this, cuz it is a pretty new and, and developing issue to a lot of civil society groups. but i think one thing that's important to consider here is, you know, when i talk to proponents of deep c mining, whether in the scientific community or in the industrial community. um, you know, one of the big pros for dave c mining would be, you know, we can offset some of the environmental damages of land based mining. so you know, mining things like copper or cobalt from mine on land can cause degradation of drinking water quality. it can cause deforestation. there are a number of, of labor issues and including child labor in some cases. but i think it's important to, to, you know, point out that if the world as a society does move ahead with gipsy mining, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're gonna shut down all of the land based mines. so there's,

there's really an open question here about whether deep c mining is going to substitute for, you know, the environmental damages that we see on land from land based mining, or whether deep sea mining will be in addition to those land based mining operations. we do have a lot of people watching and they're flying to so i just so into your moment, i'm sorry, this is what i want to bring in some of our viewers on youtube specifically. i'm christian ross, just comment. describes this in christian's opinion, is just destroying the the c 4 um and we do have some other um, some other thoughts from people that, that are describing some of the rest of this. so we need to continue to discuss, discuss, so let's listen to that. a deep sea mining will have long lasting impact at the mining sites. the question is, how these local effects of the mining might potentially cascade through the larger of ocean ecosystem. for example, to commercial fis socks. the question we, as a society needs to answer is tendency mining. indeed help us solve the climate

crisis and are the environmental risks of the mining worst. the environmental benefits of solving the climate crisis. $500.00 is designed to smoke across the world came together to undermine an emphasize some of those direst they know that ocean money could accelerate species extinction. the ocean money could create large toxic plans which are a hazard. the seem good in good under called the productivity of fisheries, and the ocean mining embed a capacity of our oceans to store kind of carbon and help us in the fight against climate change. alright, so a really crass question that i'm just going to ask does, does the future of deep sea mining really come down to who can make money off of and how much i know this is being framed is something about making the environment cleaner. and we hope that that is the motivation, but sometimes doesn't just come down to that marine as well. i think the, the, the key point here is that we, it is very clear scientifically that the in fact will be

a reversible. and in some cases, they will be nobility for the systems don't with cover with the issue in timeframe . so i think the point about the level of home we are willing to risk at this point when we know so little about in terms of wider firm if occasions on other productive economies, if you'd like, for my point of view as pacific. so what's the slide to collective withdrawing a han blue line. we think that based on the best available signs, understanding the voice that's been taken. we would, we don't think that they've seen line it has any role to play and should have any role to play at this kind of current point in time in history. okay, so let me try. sorry, i'm sorry, we're almost out of time and we're almost out of time and i want celine to be able to respond to that. i just see the challenges it will keep saying, 500000000 scientist note, maureen,

scientists not system scientist. people who are looking at the whole planetary issue, there's become this parochialism around each ecosystem. these are well intentioned, brilliant people with a 500 scientists, but they are not looking at this from a macro perspective. unfortunately, we do not have any free lunch in the universe. we will end up having to make some trade off. we do that on a daily basis. so i think daniel's point is very important. we have to 1st make sure, if deep sea mining is to happen, there must be offsetting with reference to the rest of your mining. because the, the only cogent case to be made is that there needs to be some reduction on fest. remind me as someone who has studied trust for mining for 20 is the impact of terrible and in terms of social disruptions far worse than the c us. people are dis, located physically. and that does not happen. one of the reasons some pacific islands like now who are interested is because they've been ravaged by transfer your mind. and they see this as an opportunity to have revenue is that i can,

if i could just been subject to yeah, aggregate, they're actually very, very quickly, very quickly. a look using pacific island states such as nato to justify and how strict keeps the money is really, really inappropriate. i think it is almost like comparing apples to pairs. compare in glenn baselining and deep see miami. i think this julie is really quite clear on impacts of tapes, the money on the ocean full. so if occasions will be be on you cannot remediate what you distort visa, end, demik spaces, can. okay. phone anywhere. we don't even know how much that. alright. okay. daniel, you're going to have the last word and very, very quickly. um i, i'm interested in a point that celine made when he talked about. there's been a lot of talk about how car companies don't want to be involved in this is a business, and do they really leave themselves wiggle room that at some point they could jump on board with this if they want to. or yeah, i mean,

a commercial deep sea mining operation realistically isn't going to get started for a number of years at this point. it's hard to say whether it's 5 or 10, but you know, years down the line if that becomes a viable source of cheap cobalt for car batteries, you know they, they could turn to that, but for the time being um and then and get us not all car companies, but sorry, what is valuable in bmw you have made these commitments at least in the short term, to avoid metals from the deep sea. but of course those metals are not yet on the market anyway. okay. and that will be the final word, daniel ackerman, of silly molly marine engine wiley. thank you for joining me for this conversation . we appreciate it very much. now we're going to pause the conversation right now, but i'm very big. thank you. as i said to our guest and to our youtube community for joining us for this discussion, that is all for now. take care. we'll see you later. the

the september. oh no, just india hose, the g 20 summit, where leading economies will discuss global challenges. the broad costs premier of a new series, exploring the implications of us and you forgot those for 1st amendment rights will lead to gathering new york for the un general assembly with the ukraine and the

climate change expected to dominique talks. generation sports meets the icons who are challenging preconceptions and using the platforms to change society. the candidates for mexico's presidential election will be announced. will this be the 1st time in the country's history to women? go head to head for the top till september on al jazeera, they sing liliana teams? does the un fits the purpose was like many critics sites just pub solution doesn't get anywhere near enough done to the amount of money that is put into a hard hitting into b. c. think about to the minus on washing it's enough for money to go on. its own and built it's on don't providing on for centuries, people have been taking care of our so i have every confidence that future generations will do it as well via the story on told to how does era for us is always of interest to people around the world, this has been going on for

a number of our report stories going into a national perspective to try to explain to global audience. how is this could impact the lives? this is an important part of the world and how to do this very good. the bringing the news to the world from here, the of course in talk a som, suspends the corruption conviction to form a prime minister on con and orders him to be released on bail the other while i'm on the inside, this is all just their life from joe hall also coming up to john's mid achievement on those pass out. but honda has arrived in egypt on his fast foreign troops.