of atlanta stein will to be legal trade. what you have here is not just american logical optics. you're talking about a political damage where the spoils of war smuggled and sold to books and houses, and private collectors, buying or selling. i mean, part of the fact is worth finance is to be headings of muslims in the middle east. don't sell, don't buy. that's one quick solution. ok. trafficking on i will just be around a new class. one. bonding funds on closing defined by the state as religious. the government says it's to defend the country's troops, secularism, muslims believe is a targeted attack on fundamental freedoms. why is the issue so contentious both for and again, this is inside the

hello and welcome to the program i'm fully by to build a new school year. will begin in france on monday. and so does our new government bad on what it can sit as religious clothing? a by is one by female, most things and the companies by males will be bought from state tassels. the french education minister says students wearing them to school won't be allowed into classes, but will be instead send for a discussion on their choice of clothing. and ministerial decision is generating plenty of discussion with widely differing views, will be exploring many of them with i guess shortly. but what do people think in front? his parents correspond is natasha butler. well, there's been a lot of reaction to the fridge government's decision to ban advise and companies in schools. the education is the gabriella tal says. the reason behind the bond is, is a key says that these governments reveal a religious identity as a religious signs and symbols have known pain find in french schools on default,

and from the street. secular news, well politicians on the rights and falls lights of welcome to use a low loss for the fine. one prominent politician says, wearing the sort of gums of schools is as far as he's concerned. at lubbock qualification, he says, what politicians on the left have said that this is jessica. the example is on the silvia from present a manual micros governments. and this is just a pianist of detroit destruct for of the real issues as i roll, as i say, in the education system, in terms of public opinion. while a recent opinion polls suggest that most people in frauds do support the bond teachers union, certainly safe to say welcome to clarity on the issue. they say it's going to make their life easier. but what we all seeing also is a number of young people on social media on social networks talking about perhaps we're known to next long floating dresses. when schools go back next week because

they safe is as far as they are concerned, defies. and can, these are just cultural infections statements, and they should be able to, well, they won't. natasha butler for inside story powers. almost. i think huge occasional institutions are made for us to study and learn. and as long as that singular, it should be respected, then you can do whatever you want at home. that's old, once freedom stuff with the boundary of others. yep, i do, i sort of call these are these notices or about and means ponies. i can walk around in my pensive, i want all topless. no one will either call me and telling me. i don't feel any particular maureen pressure around me, so i stopped looking like a woman. but from a legal point of view, i am not forbidden to do anything for the summer, but suppose, yeah, i think there are more urgent issues to deal with at the moment. we've been talking about it for 40 years. it's dotted with a head scarf and then it was the bikini. no, it's the a bio or less spoken a bit more detail into the background. to all of this from simples is a strict brand to secularism. known as licensee for separation between the state

and religion. a strict bond on religious symbols in schools began in the 19th century to prevent catholic influence in public education in 2004 president jack shocks government bind, head scarves worn by muslims from state schools and buildings and dress associated with other face thing. fluid, jewish cape, a caps or yeah, move cuz and launch christian crosses. 6 years later friends became the 1st european country to bring in a band on full face bales in public spaces. the european court of human rights up hell, the so called burke, a bad a year late to prison. nicholas tacos. these government banned the wearing of the he drop and seek turbans in classrooms. in 2016, several french cities and towns banned balconies. the full body bathing suit won by some muslim women. those brands were laid to overturn however, the wel that's bringing our guest for today's inside

story. nope, not re gig is the national president of the muslim students. so friends group, she joined just from little bit in the french board. i've signed my lo is jack her long. he's senior research fellow at the global policy institute and in london is rainbow mary. she's professor of politics at queen mary university of london. and welcome to you. oh, thank you very much for joining us. no, not letting me stop with you. the french education minutes to get play like tags says the a by a has no place in our schools. what do you respond? especially you thank you very much. especially to really across good sense of this controversy. if your internet's needs to be given. for the past 20 years, there was a constant pressure understand women to believe that bodies and how and what they dislike to charlotte. so as it was shown, it was have to call them between these been and does not as strong presses. so let's use this was it's about known presses, because when you look on the ground,

uh what is told is don't presses don't codes, don't sketch. it's not really about a bio bias. one word that is used to talk about all these things and that actually shows how it's actually not about stickler isn't because behind a, by what is in the by yeah, any one who didn't on the internet, can see that in a volume is just the cultural government from the middle east, so it's not a religious government. so when the other co, as i said to say that a body has no less in schools, what is he really talking about? is he talking about just a fashion statement, just address, all dressed, not beloved in schools, or is he talking about something religious and again, it's not the case, but i think it shouldn't be great. and i emphasize on that that what we're talking about right now is not about really just calling a minute. and schools, it's about been phoning slim woman. it's are. all right, is that caroll?

let me come to you. you are in favor of the spine. i understand why, why? because for a certain reason, as a donald, a headscarf in 2004, which is to respect the low of 60 g draws, which is state suggestive variation between uh, origin at the state. and it's, as we know, you have to put to understand because i know many people into, well, i frenzy number 80 you need and then i just swear, don't understand the friendship execute to the bad dodge. did you do original symbols in schools. it's because at the base from these are political construct based on the principles you best to get the d 5 county d prophecies, nothing differently concept looked over just concept. and the friendship of rick was established up was established as a result of a fight. the guys, the region,

and the principles that the little of to be bought in more important, digital of good. you said to cool the french identity. and the score is the seen as the church of the republic, the republic, the principles of rhetoric, our kind of version at the school age is judge is judge. you're going to respect such a road such as the easy to. so i understand the fact that some people say that, do you have a yeah, yes, yeah, but yeah, it's nothing you should be uh or just job and but defective disease. well, i'll just say the final just in keep how does the, if i doesn't bother the 2nd, the rules or friends because it does required right over just i mention it's not to distribute or to just just take even the time the museum counsel says it's not or just dress, but it does a quad origins dimensions because it is warm is presumably almost exclusively by

the young bust. him goes and it is see the 5, i was a fight, isn't it? isn't it the role of religious authorities to define whether a government represents or religion? no, not here. in this case, the moves was named council, as you say, as i said, that the a by a is tied to our culture but is not, is mixed with represented as a and was game going to just sign that it isn't. in fact, i'm was living village aside, so who decides what so many decide what was the status because this the day see it as an attack on you. so i missed a woman. hm. so that okay, that's let me ask you this. not for i thought before, i brought you just before i bring the into the conversation towards the talk ation . just respond to what jack has just said before i bring in rainbow to the conversation on the super funny. i think he never talked to any missing woman because awesome woman. i never so as i, as in, i was in a stomach statement or a subject to really just the government as i never wanted it. so i'm thinking that

we see as and then talk to is long before what we see is an attack on miss living women on the same girl. so 141516 years old girls who are told by what 29, what they have to wear and what they don't have to where we smell a young girls. what fluid at this address doesn't show you cause enough discharge doesn't show you. that's what it's about. that why we are concerned, it's because it's harassment. i'm sure it is true. it's i think when a guy come, an old man come and with his will church, but we'll tell you you're not coming to school. if your chart is north fulton off and i don't see your testimony fixed. okay, well, some of the good conversation. yeah, i think we can't use the a word, but let's, let's try and avoid using it rainbow, let me bring you into the conversation. friends of course has been long preoccupied with with the proper place of religion in public life. is this new bond in your

view with justify? does it align with the spirit of secularism, which as we've heard is a very sensitive topic in france. i just think it does, i'm disperse to say he listen was to reinforce french identity and to protect it from external influence. initially, the catholicism to remove the paper, went through it's from room and focus on the french identity. and since then, it has been used increasing the use of with them, with the full force to protect french identity from of received internal threats, of other religions which have taken an increasing holding prompts. but as the very 1st he said, this is not religious dress. this is a way of imposing yes, another restriction on the way that's missing. women are allowed to dress, which there was a long tradition of in products. it's often quite a ton of their state. sometimes a bit white seizure,

but it's always about white men telling wisdom women what they are not allowed to wear. and i don't think this is about 6 years of anymore. i think it is about coach was is that colonel? your thoughts? how do you enforce such a band? how do you ask the school to decide what is to buy a and what is that long dress? that's a good question. and that's why that's why the directory is the demand for that. and you should be gainful and most as a schools who are what you guys that there was a growing number of incidents that sky and if you kind of go to the issue of when they arrive during what it must be missing, run arriving, wearing these varies on governments, which to everyone else seemed to have overages and under the weather it is not to know for sure you are to use it as a certain or just that mentioned you called you know, it was, it was, you would have considered these bad as an attack on listings or, and on the some. and the number of incidents grew as be during the last uh,

in the us, just a priest, but other than 20 percent. okay. it's not a huge number. but the head must, as wanted to a position to be able to decide whether this, this young guy and he's wearing it as a pro vocation or whether the jews just popped off of the fashion sense a, filling up the fact that now there will be a rule which we make it easier for teachers to enforce about that and to promote before the died of ascii. it's pro i think the little we to specify that that you would have to as a dialogue and see what the situation is. but it is quite obvious, you have to be that it is fox, you know, the fact that it is a growing trying to now is not just refresh them. trend is in a gain and defensive, very sensitive to the front of you studies. and when you're ready to go to studies, we've paid a heavy price for recording your studies, and therefore,

we don't want any fee. we challenges, but it's going to be a challenge to all basic principles. and that's the end of it. now let me ask you for your reaction to what jack is. it just said the and he's right in saying that this band has been welcomed by some school union to say there's been an increase in new spitting full body robes at the end. they can decide whether these costed shoot ostentatious religious symbols. what do you respond to that 1st key? well, what come by you? i would say right, wink. secondly, lots of it. i don't think he has a history. rumba. look into it. it's actually been fashioned around no days. now he said that it's going to make it easier for his masters, but i'm sorry, but it's going to make you worse because about 2 bedrooms. a traditional 1st venture is racial profiling because you said a moment where,

how do you know though we met about mission? how can i do going to know that unfortunately, the girls who are arrested one could stopped and harassed all black. ah, perhaps turkish asian. that's the girl that we are talking about. so what is this going to make is going to make racial profiling? who do with the see of us in the simply do we think august and then or the address is not okay on your but on the white girl is gonna be the case because she's not much than usual. and then the 2nd problem is the door on the low, almost as you mentioned earlier, it should be the religious authority. who say what is religious going? was not, not the government is opening a adult with the government kind of say, and it's quite from adults. so from a large country to decide what is religious and what is not. so this is for the money because on, on the few in the future, what is going to be, isn't gonna be, i don't know a earrings. is it going to be an american strip as one of the t as well?

like they gotta be the one who decide what is religious and what is ramsey is like your response to that. how do you deal with the issue of racial pro profiling as, as luminous as, because this would give rise racial profiling? how do you decide who's a muslim woman and who's not? and therefore, how do you address the concerns that the law may be discriminatory against? muslim women, the low a so for these do, what are your big dresses deal with for these you wearing a keep as i know deals our just sides. but dissolve human d i. yeah, by is as new were used by. i mean, is the i by a is for me you just follow the, the st gets, is it is the fact it is one by the stream goes, i don't, you know, i think good. i don't know any of the cases this. the book is good. we don't you about yeah. as of a light gum,

you can wear which in districts no problem. you can put it in your school, but it doesn't take much space. you do when you're of a school, you could you take it off and show you all of it or, or the closing. and then when you come out of school, you put you back. oh no problem. we is just the school does. i'm afraid in spite of what a lot was say it does. uh, what do you just diamond shit or does the quad overages and if a 30 degree or to just i mentioned it was a more than or use it measured, it does apply to put into code diamond showed the it test because a way to cut again a channel just by and run the code is up on the basic principles or i don't know french clip. okay, a rainbow. i see you. i see you that uh, shaking your head then. and so i want to bring you back into the conversation. jack says via, by a has a quite a political religious dimension. i think that's turner,

i think it's direct choice. um, and i think that there's a lot of the men telling women what they kind of caught with. and i think it's additionally agreed just actually to apply to women, to undress, to remove clothing that she feels safe and comfortable, and especially in the context of a sexual harassment switch is a real issue and prompts. um, i'm not surprised that some people prefer to dress modestly. and um, are we going to say to no man's name women now that they will so called where address beyond just at length or scope beyond assessments because this isn't sort of just symbol. it's a comment, i said wait, you draw the line, right? and jack rainbow also mentioned that the, the context of reason context in friends. and he talked about radical islam and, and the history of the recent attacks and, and so for and tribes as perhaps a response in a reaction to such laws being enacted. what do you,

what do you say to that? you have to take the same the direction is to, is to make me more or less, but doesn't, that doesn't make sense. how, how does that address the issue, jack, how does it address the issue of what the, do you, what you'll get good by the ability to go to context and you have to take into accounts. it's a pretty going to takes even frost. i watched the television and i see all do a ride swing the far right, the national in front. and how do we go the river? because i've been debating these issue for weeks. you have debates on see use and other channels and it is a shuttle to the governor and don't forget that, you know, the government been doing all this. all this also to appeal to right wing vote has perhaps check. yeah. but you've got no garage where the boat is, would like you to be binding the street that they want you to bundle headscarf industry. they want you to bump a oh god on. but in the process just in the school and the government is making

these principles, but clearly industry university, you will what you want. but when you are in a school, you have to adopt a certain gold of behavior that he some in a bunch of schools have uniforms. so that's what some people, even according to the needful uni folds. and it is based on the principle of equality, g, of, or school to piece in the task. you don't the, let's say, let's allow us to respond to that. there we have so many things. i think that's the universe. so when i buy up because it's just a long dress and i don't understand what is like that you can't put your buy in your bug or whatever, but it just didn't impress like i don't know what is the program. secondly, just talking about like some of them, it's just like, i'm sorry, but like to go stop, bite, wing keeps like showing around, et cetera. there is a know another as history about friends seems to forget about we should remember in the, from the 1935, the french only used as a, as

a methodology and on a fixed it creek and, and thought to, to kill the rebellion under or been what we put them fading campaigns. so what they did is because they want it to hit the honor and cause the site in the context they would do compassed where they failed the women. and i think that unfortunately, even if the what type of the machines changed and they don't have the same invention anymore, the same thought keeps keeps, you keeps everything, but keep choosing the women the same were in a body as a bunch of grounds. well, i don't know what i don't know what we can do to that. there's like not. right? oh god, i would like to add that in 2004. when the band on headscarf was pronounced, we had counted as debates seized and there's really no problem with us cost. everyone has come to accept these principles. and i think each would be the same

thing like a little bit when you're such a piece. and we don't allow teachers to be able to act in the best interests of deputies and nobody knows that says there's been no problem at all since the headscarf law was enacted. yeah, that's not true cuz even i, i went to school right. and likes to remember the emulation of having to get ride of my head of each morning before going to school. so i don't think that a was simple. it was easy still to this day hard, methinks you know what? he's talking about 2004. i think it's trinity check. interesting, but he's talking about it because soon it's going to be the 20. yes. uh i know about 3 rather than creating new rules, maybe the government should think box on the decision he made. maybe he should come back to the last night to go far, the real lassie to say that the state is separate religion and the public know doesn't have to be looked for is to say that has to be it. rainbow makes some

interest a right? a rainbow looking to make some interesting point when she says that they all people will say that this concept of life, each a, which was created in 19 o 5 is changing way once it was more of a guarantee of freedom, freedom of conscious and religion, where the state didn't get involved and now the state appears to be getting more involved and, and telling frame citizens the way they should act, the way they should dress and that front is becoming therefore more homogenous rather than more diverse. yes, i need some respect to it's, it's always becoming a surcharge. and in the way that it's controlled and behavior rather than amounts to pasting people on this amounts to what i'm quoted force universalists. and the idea is to put everybody on an equal for saying everyone a, conforming to the french universal citizen. but of course the french universal citizen is christian is void is male. and so it's not that everyone is being treated the same as everyone is expected to conform to

a single model which forces some people to stray quite significantly from their own culture while others expect everyone else to stimulate to this. and so it's a, quite a disagreement, a tree most o and small doesn't include in groups. it creates a sense of rejection and isolation. okay, jack, are they alternative solutions? you think that could address the concerns being raised without infringing on, on individual rights? and on was the women's rights and, you know, to the do, i mean, i don't know, do people talking here about challenging to the license either or not? you know, 5, i've been just out of the questionnaire dice, you know, as seen by the french as bothered by them to deal with all could you know what it says system an hour on which so that wonderful. i just find you identity and culture not evolved since 19 o 5. yes. i agree. there's are lots of discrimination who falls out of the problems that all you need. the city small door is not perfect for minorities. you start,

they couldn't be perfect. it's. we can see as a result of dissatisfaction, there is there are problems in front of the site and we try to under just university just don't know to disguise the fact that there is racism a disagreement issue and it also cite the true yes. but the other way each of the feet has to come back to effect. yeah, we were talking about how about yeah, in school and party is good. and that think defense schools of high school must remain the heart. but the rock on which differential basic republican principles based it is as i repeat, oh church, you don't go into uh, what do you just step disposable. right. just that the fake is to say that for fred schools, the other programs frost east are so right. she's the explanation. i agree. yeah. so strongly couldn't be proven the stuff to be that with ad. uh, that's more important, i think making a big meeting out of this uh,

this slope which i kind of has some of my ease uh, misplaced, the reality shoes. full uh, the young, less the mover and most the man is the integration into so side g, a, a new economy. and okay, actually it's swipe of what everyone says, integration is taking place that the situation is improving. in spite of is the knots of pretty satisfactory. we defense world. i know that mine are reduced, preferred the single door they can carry on. we have some good shots, but for us as distribution of a simulation, which was wrong. but integration, we've process always been a country if you mean, okay. and we've degraded minions of you, make your leg over us to work and origin. it's the final word as like if we can, because we're almost towards the end of our show here. now i'll give you the last word jack says this is really a non issue and that there are the more important, more pressing issues like associated cannot make issues that should be talked about

rather than this issue of the bias being binding in classrooms. what do you respond to his saying that because he's not pushing, but it's a lot male or to think of binding the controlled income women address. there's no improvement. yes, it's not for good for you, but it's for me. and he, he said that there is racism, and there is discrimination. and how do you deal with it? no, by adding more by trying to to maybe communicate with the collection, make it easier for them know by adding more and more just for nation. this is just a thunder of books. you're opening it for to trust you open that for the job. now you're going to open it for something else. it's never ending. it's always the women body advice that the government defends government is trying to donate to control. maybe you should let go. maybe that's how you're going to find a solution. thank you so much. we'll live with that. thank you. thank you so much. we'll leave it the thank you for a great conversation. navigate shack, hold on ramble, mary. thank you for your time. and thank you too for watching. you can always wash

this program again any time by visiting our website at all, which is 0 dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. of course you can join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter handle, is that a j inside story from me for the back to button the whole team. thanks for watching bye. for now, the the

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