enough, so united nation is the power to transcend food. i want to tell people not only himself to the needs, but i'm african m, the imagined world that opens up on his remarkable gem from the child refugee to leading south to the basketball world. i felt that it was important that i give back. i felt that it was part of what i had for the generation school on our new classroom binding funds on the building defined by the spain does religious. the government says it's to defend the country's troops taking the very same muslims believe is a targeted attack on fundamental freedoms. why is the issue so contentious both for and again, this is inside the

hello and welcome to the program i'm fully by to build a new school year. will begin in france on monday. and so does a new government bad on what it considers religious clothing a by is one by female, most things and the can be used by males will be bon from state classrooms. the french education minister says students wearing them to school won't be allowed into classes, but we'll be instead, spend for a discussion on that choice of clothing. and ministerial decision is generating plenty of discussion with widely differing views, will be exploring many of them without guess shortly. but what do people think in front? his of paris correspondence natasha back? well, there's been a lot of reaction to the french government's decision to ban advise and companies in schools. the education is the gabriela tal says, the reason behind the bond is a key says that these governments reveal a religious identity and religious signs and symbols have long been bad in 5

schools on default and 7th street. secular knows, well politicians on the rights and falls lights of welcome to use a loan. last for the fine. one prominent politician says, wearing the sort of gums the school is as far as he's concerned. at lubbock, for vacation, he says, but politicians on the left have said that this is just the example is on the, from the, from present a manual might cause governments and this is just a pos thought to try to distract from the real issues that they were all as they say in the education system, in terms of public opinion, while the reason is opinion polls suggest that most people in, from a to support the bon teacher's union. certainly safe to say, welcome to clarity on the issue. they say it's going to make their life easier. but what we all seeing also is a number of young people on social media, on social networks talking about perhaps were known to next long floating dresses. when schools go back next week, because they say there's,

as far as they are concerned, devise and can, these are just cultural infections statements and they should be able to weigh what they won't talk to butler for inside story powers. almost. i think huge occasional institutions are made for us to study and learn and as long as it secular, it should be respected. kristen, you can do whatever you want at home. is that sold once freedom stuff with the boundary of others? yep. i do less sort of call these are these notices or about and means ponies. i can walk around in my pensive, i want all topless. no one will ever cummings on me. i don't feel any particular maureen pressure around me. so i start looking like a woman, but from a legal point of view, i'm not forbidden to do anything. i will put a sub or bus palsky. i think there are more urgent issues to deal with at the moment. we've been talking about it for 40 years. it started with a head scarf and then it was the beginning. now it's the a bio or less spoken a bit more detail into the background. to all of this from simple is, is a strict brenda secularism. known as like

a city for separation between the state and religion. a strict bond on religious symbols in schools began in the 19th century to prevent catholic influence in public education. and 2004 president jack shocks, government bind, head scarves worn by muslims from state schools and buildings and dress associated with out of face thing. fluid, jewish cape, a caps or yeah, move cuz and launch christian crosses. 6 years later, friends became the 1st european country to bring in a band on full face bales and public spaces. the european court of human rights upheld the so called burke, a bad a year late to prison. nicholas tacos, he's government banned the wearing of the he drop and seek turbans in classrooms. in 2016, several fine cities and towns banned balconies. the full body bathing suit won by some muslim women. those brands where they to overturn however, as well as bringing our guest for today's

inside story. nope. not re gig is the national president of the muslim students. so friends group, she joined just from little bit in the french for that's fine. my low is jack her long. he's senior research fellow at the global policy institute and in london is rainbow mary. she's professor of politics at queen mary university of london. and welcome to you. oh, thank you very much for joining us. not let me stop with you. the french education minister got play, like tad says, the a by a has no place in our schools. what do you respond? especially you thank you very much. a pleasure to read across the sense of this controversy. if your internet's needs to be given for the past 20, if there was a constant pressure, understand women to believe that bodies and how and what they dislike to charlotte . so as it was shown, it was helps golf then between these then and does not as strong presses. so let's use this what it's about long presses. because when you look on the ground,

uh what is told is don't presses, you don't codes long sketch. it's not really about a, by a, by it's one word that is used to talk about all these things. and that actually shows how it's actually not about stickler isn't because behind a by or what is it in the by yeah, any one who didn't on the internet, can see that in a volume is just the cultural government from the middle east. so it's not a religious government. so when the other co, as i said to say that a body has no less in schools, what is he really talking about? is he talking about just a fashion statement, just address, all dressed, not beloved in schools, or is he talking about something religious and again, it's not the case, but i think it shouldn't be great. and i emphasize on that that what we're talking about right now is not about really just calling a minute and schools, it's about been phoning slim woman. it's are. all right,

is that correct on letting me come to you, you are in favor of the spine. i understand why, why? because for a certain reason, as a donald, a headscarf in 2004, which is to respect the low of 60 g draws, which is state suggestive variation between where the gen ed to state. and it's, as we know, you have to good to understand because i know many people into, well, i frenzy number 80 you need and then i just swear, don't understand the friendship execute to the bad dodge. did you do a range of symbols in schools? it's, it's because at the base from these are political construct based on the principles you best to get the d 5, jenny d prophecies, nothing differently concept looked over just concept. and the friendship of rick was established up was established as a result of a fight. the guys, the region,

and the principles that the little of to be bought in more important, digital of good. you said to cool the french identity. and the score is the seen as the church of the republic, the republic, the principles of rhetoric, our kind of version at the school age is judge is judge. you're going to respect such a road such as the easy to. so i understand the fact that some people say that, do you have a yeah, yes, yeah, but yeah, it's nothing you should be uh or just got, but defective disease. well, i'll just say the final just in keep how does the, if i doesn't bother the 2nd, the rules or friends because it does required right over just i mention it's not to distribute or to just just take even the time the museum counsel says it's not or just stress, but it does a quad origins dimension because it is warm, is presumably almost exclusively by a young bust. him goes and it is c,

as in 5, i was a fight, isn't it? isn't it the role of religious authorities to define whether a government represents or religion or not? here in this case, the moves was named council, as you say, is a said that the a by a is tied to our culture but is not, is missed, was represented as a, it was game going to just sign that. it isn't. in fact, mostly when it just finds a who decides what so many decide, what was the status because this the, they, they see it as an attack on it's uh, listening women. hm. so that, okay, that's, let me ask you this. not for i thought before, i brought you just before i bring the into the conversation towards the you'll talk, i should just respond to what jack has just said before i bring in rainbow to the conversation on the super funny. i think he never talked to any missing woman because awesome woman. i never so as i, as in, i was in a stomach statement or a subject to really just the government as i never wanted it. so i'm thinking that

we see as and then talk to is long before what we see is an attack on miss living women. on the same girl to 141516 years old girls who are told by what 29, what they have to wear and what they don't have to where we smell a young girls. what fluid at this address doesn't show you cause enough discharge doesn't show you. that's what it's about. that why we are concerned. it's because it's harassment. i'm sure it is true. it's, i think when a guy come, an old man come and will be useful for it too, but we'll tell you you're not coming to school. if your chart is north fulton off and i don't see your testimony fixed. okay. well, it's not up to the conversation. yeah, i think we can't use the a word, but let's, let's try and avoid using it. rainbow, let me bring you into the conversation. france, of course, has been long, preoccupied with, with the proper place of religion and public life. is this new bond in your view

with justify does it align with the spirit of secularism, which as we've heard is a very sensitive topic in france. i just think it does. i'm disperse to say he listen, was to reinforced french identity on to protect it from external influence. initially, the catholicism to remove the paper, went through it's from room and focus on the french identity. and since then, it has been used increasing the use of with them, with the full force to protect french identity from a perceived internal threats of other religions which have taken an increasing holding prompts. but as the very 1st he said, this is not religious dress. this is a way of imposing yes, another restriction on the way that's missing. women are allowed to dress, which there was a long tradition of in products is often quite paternal. there's just sometimes a bit white savior,

but it's always about white men telling wisdom women what they are an honest without swear, and i don't think this is about 6 years of anymore. i think it is about coach was is that colonel? your thoughts? how do you enforce such a band? how do you ask the school to decide? what is a by a and what is a long dress? that's a good question. and that's why that's why the directory is the demand for that. and you should be gainful. and most as a schools who are what you guys that there was a growing number of incidents that sky and if you kind of go to the issue of when they arrive during what it must be missing, run arriving, wearing these varies on governments which to everyone else seemed to have overages and under the weather it is not to know for sure you are to use it as a certain or just that mentioned you called you know, it was, it was you would have considered these bad as an attack on listings or, and on the some and the number of incidents grew as be during the last uh,

in the us, just a priest, but other than 20 percent. okay. it's not a huge number. but the head must, as wanted to a position to be able to decide whether this, this young god, he's wearing it as a pro vocation or whether the jews just popped off of the session sense uh, filling up the fact that now there will be a rule which we make it easier for a teachers to enforce about all that and to promote before the died of ascii. it's pro, i think the little we to specify that that you would have to as a dialogue and see what the situation is. but it is quite obvious, you have to be that it is fox, you know, the fact that it is a growing trend. now it's not just professional trend is you know, gain and defensive, very sensitive to the front of you studies. and when you're ready to go to studies, we've paid a heavy price for recording your studies, and therefore,

we don't want any fee. we challenges, but it's going to be a challenge to all basic principles. and that's the end of it. now let me, uh ask you for your reaction to what jack is. it just said the and he's right in saying that this band has been welcomed by some school union to save as being an increase in new spitting full body rhodes at the end. they can decide whether these costed shoot ostentatious religious symbols. what do you respond to that? especially well welcomed by you, i would say right, wink. secondly, lots of it. i don't think he has a history. rumba. look into it. it's actually been fashioned around no days. now he said that it's going to make it easier for his masters, but i'm sorry, but it's going to make you worse because about 2 bedrooms. a traditional 1st venture is racial profiling because you said a moment where,

how do you know though we meant that they are listening? how can i do going to know that unfortunately, the girls who are arrested blankets stopped and harassed all black. ah, perhaps turkish asian. that's the girl that we are talking about. so what is this going to make is going to make racial profiling? who do with the see of us in the simply do we think august and then or the address is not okay on your but on the white girl is gonna be okay cuz she's not much than usual. and then the 2nd problem is the door on the low. as you mentioned earlier, it should be the religious authority. who say what is religious going was not, not the government is opening adult with the government kind of say, and it's quite from adults. so from a large country to decide what is religious and what is not. so this is for the money because on, on the few in the future, what is going to be, isn't gonna be, i don't know a earrings. is it going to be an american strip as one of the t as well?

like they gotta be the one who decide what is religious and what is ramsey is like your response to that. how do you deal with the issue of racial pro profiling as, as luminous as, because this would give rise racial profiling? how do you decide who's a muslim woman and who's not? and therefore, how do you address the concerns that the law may be discriminatory against? muslim women, the low a so for these do, what are your big dresses deal with for these you wearing a keep as i know deals our just sides. but dissolve human d i. yeah, by is as new were used by. i mean, is the i by a is for me you just follow the, the st gets, is it is the fact it is one by the stream goes, i don't, you know, i think good. i don't know any of the cases this. the book is good. we don't you about yeah. as of a light gum,

you can wear which in districts no problem. you can put it in your school, but it doesn't take much space. you do when you're of a school, you could you take it off and show you all of it or, or the closing. and then when you come out of school, you put you back. oh no problem. we is just the school does. i'm afraid in spite of what a lot was say it does. uh, what do you just diamond shit or does the quad overages and if a 30 degree or to just i mentioned it was a more than or use it measured, it does apply to put into code diamond showed the it test because a way to cut again a channel just by and run the code is up on the basic principles or i don't know french clip. okay, all right, so i see you. i see you that uh, shaking your head then. and so i want to bring you back into the conversation. jack says via, via has a quite a political religious dimension. i think that's turner,

i think it strikes choice. um and i think that there's a lot of to mentally women what they kind of cult where and i think it's initially agreed just actually to apply to women to address to remove clothing that she feels safe and comfortable. and especially in the context of, of sexual harassment switch is a real issue and prompts um, i'm not surprised that some people prefer to dress modestly. and um, are we going to say to no man's name women now that they will so called where address beyond just as the length or scope beyond assessments because this isn't sort of just simple. it's a comments. i said wait, you draw the line right. and jack rainbow also mentioned that the, the context of reason context in friends. and he talked about radical islam and, and the history of the recent attacks and, and so for and tribes as perhaps a response in a reaction to such laws being acted. uh, what do you,

what do you say to that? you have to take the same the direction pretty close to is to make me more or less, but doesn't, that doesn't make sense. how. how does that address the issue, jack, how does it address the issue of what the, do you, what you'll get good by the ability to go to context and you have to take into accounts. it's a pretty going to takes i even problem. i watched the television and i see i'll do a ride, swing the far right there, national in front, and how do we go the river? because i've been debating these issue for weeks. you have debates on see use and other channels and it is a shuttle to the governor and don't forget that you know, the government been doing all this. all this also to appeal to right wing vote is perhaps truck. yeah. but you've got no garage where the boat is, would like you to be binding the street that they want you to bundle headscarf industry. they want you to bump a oh god on. but in the process just in the school and the government is making

these principles, but clearly industry university, you will what you want. but when you are in a school, you have to adopt a certain gold of behavior that he some in a bunch of schools have uniforms. so that's what some people, even according for the needful uni full. and it is based on the principle of equality, g, of, or school to piece in the task. you don't owe you a, let's say, let's allow us to respond to that. then we have so many things. i think that's the universe. so when i buy out, because it's just a long dress and i don't understand why it's like that you can't put your buy on your bug or whatever it just didn't impress like i didn't. what is to program. secondly, just talking about like some of them is just like, i'm sorry, but like to go stop, bite, wing keeps like showing around, etc. there is a know, another is history about friends seems to forget about we should remember in the, from a 1935, the french only used as a, as

a methodology and one of his technique and, and thought to, to kill the rebellion under or been what we put them fading campaigns to what they did is because they wanted to hit the honor and site in the context that will do come past where they failed the women. and i think that unfortunately, even if the what type of the machine changed and they don't have the same invention anymore, the same keeps keeps, you keeps everything, but keep choosing the women the same were in a body as a bunch of grounds. but i don't know what to be. i don't know what we can make it to that there's like no reasonable as i would like to add that into pfizer, that full when the band or head scarf was pronounced, we had counted as debates sees dead. there's really no problem with us cost. everyone has come to accept these principles and i think each would be the same

thing like a little bit bring us such a piece. and we don't allow teachers to be able to act in the best interests of deputies. and the is that says is a no problem at all. since the headscarf is always enacted. that's not true because even i went to school right. and likes to remember the emulation of having to get ride of my has of it's morning before going to school. so i don't think the a, it was simple. it was easy still to this date, hart my thinks you know what? he's talking about 2004. i think it's tricky, shit. interesting. but he's talking about it because soon it's going to be the 20. yes. uh i knew about 3 rather than creating new rules. maybe the government should think box on the decision he made. maybe he should come back to the law of 19 o 5, the real lassie to say that the state is separate religion and that the public know doesn't have to be looked for is to say that has to be a rainbow,

makes some interest a right, a rainbows are looking to make some interesting point when she says that they all people will say that this concept of life, each a which was created in 19 or 5, it is changing way once it was more of a guarantee of freedom, freedom of conscious and religion where the state didn't get involved, and now the state appears to be getting more involved in and telling frame citizens the way they should act, the way they should dress and that firms is becoming therefore more homogenous rather than more diverse. yes, um i need some respect to it's, it's always becoming a surcharge. and in the way that it's controlled and behavior rather than a month surprising people on this amounts to what i'm quoted for the universe list . and the idea is to put everybody on an equal for saying everyone and conforming to the french universal citizen. but of course, the french universal citizen is christian is void is male. and so it's not that everyone is being treated the same as every one is expected to conform to

a single model which forces some people to stray quite significantly from their own culture while others expect everyone else to stimulate to this. and so it's a quite a discriminate tree most o and small doesn't include in groups, it creates a sense of rejection in isolation. okay, what are they alternative solutions? do you think that could address the concerns being raised without infringing on, on individual rights? and on was the women's rights in the alternative. i mean, i don't know. do people talking here about challenging to the license either or not? you know, 5, i think that's out of the question that i used always seen by the french a spot to buy them to deal with up. gotcha. now what is the system an hour on which so that wonderful and i just find the identity and culture not evolved since 19 o 5. yes, i agree. there's a lot of discrimination who falls out of the programs that a oh you need us to the small door is not perfect for minorities. you start,

they couldn't be perfect. we can see as a result of dissatisfaction. there is, there are problems in front of the site and we try to, under just universities are not to disguise the fact that there is racism a disagreement issue and it also cite the true yes. but the other way each or the feed has to come back to effect. yeah, we were talking about how about yeah, is cool and only is good at that think defense schools of high school must remain the heart. but the rock on which the french basic republican principle based it is as that repeat all church. you don't go into a body, just step disposable, right? just as if it is to say that for friends schools, the other programs frost east are so right. she's the explanation. i agree. yeah. so strongly can we cover this up to be debt with ad? that's the more important i think making a big meeting out of this uh,

the slope which i kind of has some of my ease uh, misplaced, the reality shoes. full uh, the young, less the mover and most the man is the integration into so site ga, the and the economy. and okay, actually it's swipe of what everyone says, integration is taking place that the situation is improving. in spite of is not pretty satisfactory. we defense world, i know that's minor with these preferred english for adults. they can tell yahoo to send good shots. but for us as distribution of simulation, which was wrong. but integration, we've process always been a country if you mean. okay. and we've degraded bunions, document level over the years to work and what did you in the final word as like if we can, because we're almost towards the end of our show here. now i'll give you the last word jack says this is really a non issue and that there are the more important, more pressing issues like associated cannot make issues that should be talked about

rather than this issue of the bias being binding in classrooms. what do you respond to his saying that because he's not touching but it's a lot male or to think of binding the controls and come women address is no improvement. yes, it's not for me for you, but it's for me. and he, he said that there is racism, and there is discrimination. and how do you deal with it? know, by adding more by trying to to maybe communicate with the collection, make it easier for them know by adding more and more just for nation. this is just the thunder of books. you're opening it for to trust you open that for the job. know you're going to open it for something else. it's never ending. it's always the women body advice that the government defense government is trying to dominate to control. maybe you should let go. maybe that's how you're going to find a solution. thank you so much. we'll leave with that. thank you. thank you so much . we'll leave it the thank you for a great conversation, move navigate shack, hold on ramble, mary. thank you for your time and thank you to for watching. you can always wash

this program again any time by visiting our website at all, which is 0 dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. of course, you can join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter handle, is that a j inside story from me for the back to button the whole team. thanks for watching bye for now, the the, [000:00:00;00]

the september. well now i'm just india host the g 20 summit. where leading economies will discuss global challenges. generation sport meets the icons to a challenging preconceptions and using the platforms to change societies, wildly dis, gathering new york for the un general assembly with the ukraine and climate change expected to dominate towards the broad cost premier of a new series. exploring the implications of us and you probably got goals for 1st amendment rights. a celebration of salt and fees. competition is expected to china

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