with exacerbating social divisions and the story needs to be told. we've already said franchise for decades made state let's what they did with exclusive interviews . an in depth report scores press ration. people are in desperate need of a child. you 0 as teens on the ground to bring you more award winning document trees and life news he has completed and finds out is found off the military wants to cut ties with the former colonial power present. mcclure, and refuses to recognize that take over. so how much this and this is inside story, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to the program. i'm for the bad people. 5 weeks ago,

ninja was seen as the west is most stable ally in the style region of africa. but a cool at the end of july has turn that upside down. house to president mohammed by zoom is under house arrest. the former colonial power funds refuses to recognize the military takeover present the money in my coins this his own lie. basil is still the legitimate leader demonstrate as waiting russian as well as new jerry and flags wants to cut links with friends accusing it of exploitation. so how much of this end we'll talk to our guests in just a moment. but 1st, let's hear from these yet, and of course, wondering time a these race this account is suppose that this military base. oh no, right? having a difficult time controlling the crowds, unprecedented number of for testers pop precedes the military base. yeah. in a separate, they want to move in force police to confront the french soldiers an estimated 1500 french soldiers are supposed to be all believed to be inside this town. and they

want them out. one of the main, it depends on the images that i'm still on frost has expired last night. and so because of that they are running a president and the friends to move on. and on the part of the minister there is. so i've given directors that they want the french ambassador to new jersey who's deadline to move out of the country are required about a week ago. they want to victim out of his residential address is embassy. why am i used to move out of the country? because they said this diplomatic immunity and stages and got to this probably hopping revolts. now, people here in is yet are including the minute deals of the country has not been subject valley and the imposition of sciences by the stomach. communities of west africa. i'm always been asked to research those sciences. i am set to move on the ordinary people on the street. yeah. in new jersey probably remember i'm is,

yeah. is our country, is that just largely dependent on financial and a for a, from the international community now with the suspension of a bridges of non governmental organizations as well as with functions opposed by the african union. basically, communities of west africa. i'm an international institution. things are getting more and more digital for the ordinary heavy. i mean, cars are going to how many degrees? i just need apple inside story in your mind. well, let's take a look at links between friends and these uh, friends, colonize the west african country, in 1898, and rolled for more than 60 years. these had gained its independence in 1960, and despite local hostilities, some french troops remained until today. friends in ports uranium from new share and is it's topics for partner regional and european leaders have condemned. the cool they say, friendships must remain in the fight against rebel groups in the sy region. but co supporters say they are fed up with

a former colonial power telling the country what to do. the legs springing, i guess. now for today's show, joining us from paris is nikolai and nama. he's a former french ambassador at tamale's synagogue and the republic of the congo from a buddha. is kabir a demo? he's managing director at beacon consultants, the a security risk management consultancy. and joining us from cape town is that it will it and z gay is a researcher at the institute for democracy, citizenship, and public policy in africa at the university of cape town. a won't welcome to your gentleman. thank you very much for joining us on inside story ambassador nikolai normal in paris. let me start with you. if i can, the people of new share not just a june to wants to cut ties with friends. why is friends digging in it's hills? why refused to comply with the expulsion order for somebody to what is the answer?

i assume the process does not recognize the community does as a legal praises. and you know that this fine being detained and decided being under pressure because it doesn't the bathroom or the former because he does the legal president elected president not to resign. so we, we cross rebuilt the sizes of sold president and does not comfortable driving beside the explosion or any other coming from the community to us from the trip. yes, well we had somewhat of a similar situation, a basset, or in molly where there was also a clue that the french in basrah was recalls by paris. then what's different between that situation and this one where some say friends is putting is and boy at risk. because apparently because in my, he's a president the, the resign, he did sign a letter of resignation. that's not the case or

a nature. so the situation in new jersey is very, very strange, because there are 2 presidents activity, one legal and wow, the 5 to president. and we go by the are, these are legal. we also saw stress that the prism bedroom, the one who is the thing. see, i get see, vouch gets in contact with world leaders control french president. we also spar set the wireless liar of frost. right. we, we, we did indeed hear from present my whole city spoke to present by them on the phone almost every day. but i want, what i wanted to get from you uh, um, bassett or norma is out find out why why friend is today willing to put the a safety and security of its, uh, soldiers, warranties at risk. and also if it's in basset or risk by digging in on this issue where the french should take a very kind of film position. the very same sauce, in my opinion,

it's the law school is because the president advisable. we'd not to be a be not get our game. he will not be handed boy about, you know, so we are on the very end. 60 ball, very president might come. he's very adamant about that. but finally we, we have to do our from the ship, the, the mexico. we finally beat the excel because we'd be finding the solution to, to the, to the state made to the which is the current situation from a party to point to point of view. do you think president my calls tell us relationship with present by zoom is what's guiding his decisions and his actions on you share right now when you know what. ready axis, a fidget on the bedroom would be restored to by wire and there is a pressure. what because employee this way and there's a pressure other sections of the big for was the local,

the regional organization. but the need us out or so very inflexible was out. i'm very adamant that they are going to keep the power. so each is a really stay later. yeah. and the, i think finally, we know we'd be the community this. ok, let's uh, bringing a beer into the conversation because they're as invested in no mind just said that we are in a stalemate or stand off in each side. seems to be digging in how 1st of all do you evaluate the way find says handle is crisis. in the share and how do you think the new sherry and ami the new leadership will eventually respond well is to make an escalation of a very delicate situation. and the, to me that from the looking for us to use a good way to use a positively from telemundo falls within new jersey or otherwise, i cannot see how of friends it's in new jersey in

a very political company and of its own foreign relations. did something about that all and then the ministry deployment and in the job, a part of the argument, if the interpretation of the agreement that allow for us to deploy troops on the media, on site to june typing they've given new jar and want. we just speculate the agreement on the end of the french side as they know, we do not have the community to issue that while it through my team of, of 11 to fix a very trenton from pure international relations. clear playing out maybe come presidents. i think where fall, you know, the interpretation of the solver abt, of stages, to take part in the action button, the tendency for this trip escalating. the big issue is extremely high. that in the video that you've shown, we'd people page on the right outside the embassy kind of thing. what could go wrong at that point in time? i know you have vp of a. yeah. indeed, it is

a very tense situation. manage your thoughts about how science has handled this situation in the share and also perhaps how the military is handling it right now. the new leadership, they seem to be adamant and at the same time, cautious it would seem as to what they do next. yeah, i think the francis taking a 0 sum approach so far, however, they're trying to take this approach. meanwhile, they don't have leverage to pursue that because as the box of the stages, they don't legally recognize the military, the entire power. however, in practice, they have been controlling affairs for the past months. they've been able to establish a nation with regional power. and despite their suspension and the african union, they still been able to maintain control over the extent of the territories as well as to pennsylvania, political, social, economic, and other society. why didn't somebody doesn't agree with you on that?

could be a yeah, the point around the i'd be that they've been able to establish religion with regional authority. does not allow us to describe the development of an attempted. a you describe the development of an attempted cool. the only element that has remained more or less neutrality, the united states, they've called it to the you have to call it the cool defense of the invoice to this new job. it is a bridge on the invoice between i needed to commit government depends on where he has done that. international relations is of course, subject to the interpretation of what i typically company jump on one. no, but it's already much electronically. does this not pick up nice the queen in new york. okay. a basset or let me come back to you. all right, then i'm gonna go ahead, go ahead and respond into the yeah, go ahead. i did easy regional authority, regional neighbors, for example, molly and picking up possible i stipulated their support and they,

even since litigate into formal just to these are the fact that there was really been in the regional ministry for the flight to the country. the pulling doors, but never to let them do you need victory by as also competitive fashion. so i think the original institutional level, i'm new to the african union and it was i was suspended in but nevertheless they have gotten the endorsement and support from reason only by such as my me and we cannot process with also have managing governance. yeah. original neighbors which are also under sanctions because of the clothes in, in those countries in money and book, you know, fossil, it's worth pointing out in bass. so let me come back to you and compare. mentioned the relationship with the us in the us, not recognizing this as a cool. i'll come back to that in just a moment because they have been some before such as it suggests that there is some tension, perhaps between powers and washington right now on this issue. of nisha, but i wanted to ask you about the question of military intervention. kabir said

that perhaps the french could be looking for an excuse to intervene militarily in the chair. would france do that? do you think if the app's echo was, was to ask for some sort of intervention with friends, intervene military was a stretch of it. cool was to have a mediator. range of inch conduction is not crazy, but the means to delete and politically it is not easy but you know that we'd be proud to preventing them from going full lot. and so, so as a way we know mediators intervention by paper was and know neither my april was know about false, false front seat age. so to the rule that anywhere the problem is i've just french all people my p p. i is the latest you mentioned very against us. the, i guess all the most flexible, the out. i'm not even recognize that there is a, this is a false to uh,

to interrupt the process of pcs far away. and by force it is it for to disrupt the situation. it is a boost i've sent it, but it's not too far from e t. the who we are clear about that and but we are the only country within europe to support the idea of media. terry intervention by april was even if it is not visible. so we have a very or sign the spence against the new jet and the z c, the week o clock. because the finally the, we know i need us got to denounce from the side. uh oh wow. so they take advantage of about, you know, uh because everybody's a strong, good mt friends sentiment, even the young man of the capital and saw the company the laws of about. so friends,

should i give them the news to, to, to be more and key fresh, you know, be, or let me come to you of the it'd be on bass that i talked there about a possible military intervention by echo wise. and they did threaten to intervene, but that seems of somewhat become more quiet. now. do you think that's likely to happen intervention by a gloss? some are you doing both of them? it's terrifically. what do you do? what? impossible but difficult and ministry interventions kind of a different uh, you know, around the explanation vend manifestations. right now. even decide. but when the jar and on several of the issues, including for instance, the political element that them both of those book about if you use an idea of an example planning, the president has the button to kind of support you would have one to. but the condition of the commission that would allow him to use that gets you to follow it

comes to the now the original power such as could do well. and to an extent of china. how about for you to get some support for um, for community dimension now that several of the timing on it. but i think the most important one that we should not run away from is domino effect. that the headphone the appointment must be seemed to be running away from when you have a situation someone is protecting his own position, then anything can happen. so what are using possible, what kind of difficult, all right, leonard and bulletins and gave them bassett, or alluded to the fact that the military in new shed and new leadership there has been capitalizing on this growing anti french sentiment there. and we seen huge protests outside the french embassy. the french military base is unclear whether that is reflective, of course, of the why the population. because i imagine that those against the cool would not be able to speak freely about that. about it. how much longer do you

think the new military leadership can continue to capitalize on this? is there a clear plan in place? you think they have to, to move the country forward and transition to democracy? do they have a plan in place? um, as i said, the new chair tons of credit which i've been trying to use to ask questions. and then as a mobilization strategy, as well as to the right to capital and support, be on easier for the the scene in my, the, in the regina household and the on as well as on social media. people saluted the cool in the fact that it be considered a way of pushing away from the continued influence in the country and some sort of 2nd independence for these are the country on the west african beach. and in general, concerning the weight for i think that the ability to do that is trying to find time the, you know, explore that box. there is situates that, you know, the international influence, which was more items. so how,

then you turn it back to the power? what does it say the end presented upon the ground and symbolically. that's very important because we said the a box, there is the representative of fries and governments. and if he's not, there is a to indicate that um, you know, there's a way for it in terms of engaging with the international partners such as the us, which would be more problematic. and that, that possibly to describe devon, necessarily intended as a cool. so right, i see that the, yeah, that's fine. fine. but the, the plan isn't necessarily as clear as one would expect after this amount of time. you can follow me here. could be a, do you agree with that they're buying time and how long do you think they can ride on this on timeframe, sentiment waves? it's going to be buckled between the effects to the economic function. and of course, the function on the low cost of or the, the being able to go to school. but at the point, i'm new, jerry and we'll have to choose between supporting them. and then of course,

the effect of the functions on them. well, really seen that the, you know, the 2nd point is there are people that run, you know, around the shot transition period um does this week. and then during president more to the idea of a $91.00 of the transition period before then um the id rather put forward is 6 months transition bureau, but you do want to indicate that a true. yeah. you know, so i think that's so what the next step would be, what transition? and then of course on the various monte lot drugs like nose and diplomatic by like dropbox and us would also come in to agree our own doctor. they do time period for that transition, ambassador, norma, what is the next step as far as far as funds is concerned about that? or if, as you say, reinstating bi zoom is a loss caused and what happens next? how does friends settle this crisis way through the end of the via the french withdrawal? there is no doubt. what about that?

about the program is up to who is a we know is this crazy? so what do we know all the g at this? do you know, is there is a very serious install have at a c, a, at least that was installed tennessee in this country. so french well need to assist the jan. i'm going to come back to fire. so as a jet, this is what about what about as much as you can? i'll make the interest some bass that are in the share. it's uranium liner, trash needs uranium, if it's energy needs it needs. yeah. what about bath? i mean, is it, isn't that a concern for finds its energy of independence? it's not. it booked, uncle cross. we have many other providers in new jersey. he's a smaller producer of $200.00, you know, and the main producers for across have been providers for cross the tax. so it was biggest all street in canada, so we don't need the need. yeah, i mean it's your way,

i only for security interest and 250 is the and you know, the coordinators, i'm not really interested in financing. subject is really interested in the best. so that means they have a 2 power to enrich themselves, not to uh, improve the situation entail. social security is not that much. if it's clear, it is, oh yeah. okay. both compare and manage seem to disagree with you. it could be, i'll start with you, the ambassador says friends wasn't there for, for it's interest. it's not interested in these as radium. and that it was just there to help the fight against groups, groups in the region. what, what do you respond to? in summary, i mean it's very important that friends, recall the 9th is that, is the post colonial would probably be enough break up a failing or failed. i mean, why? why are we not seeing the type of reaction or the countries why did that isn't going in and french them format quality though,

is seeing that the important upfront starts from the point of view. now speaking about security, about economic interest, reality on ground is different. it's french companies that i might into re, every year in the, on the agreements as acute into feeble or from nothing to people in the jar. and, um, i mean, the economy you, you don't know, you'd speak about that does not reflect that. then with regards to security, that's fine to present the french troops in new jersey this the hell. so how much the most, rob, and terrorist ravaged part of the world at the moment. so it's very difficult to convince the new jerry, i mean nothing academic i can look at the data and look out for the configuration of what for the average each year. it's almost impossible to convince him that different presents data if in his interest, and that is what france needed to do it. okay, manage your, your response to what the ambassador said. yeah, before we disappear, i mean, you look at the postcolonial corporate, i see on the ports the corporation agreements, and they've stipulated that,

you know, friends should have the rest of access to debris as purchase minimal, including uranium and you know, french companies such as a what was formerly known as i've been back in the colorado. i've had professional presidential axes, and the writers significant benefits and profit as a result. so on arrival competition, i tell you not to be these in the new year. i like to ask them about how frankly dispute is, for example, um the chinese for see the russians would have access to that uranium that's, that's something which i'm, you know, in terms of french not only for the policy, but as well as will receive, take a normal diplomacy is not an option that they would like to identity, so the not find the phone you there for security. and what does that mean? the security issues in these are the fire on the, immersed for the top 10 to 15 years. they put them in and it's one of the extensions, but as far as in boy respect to uranium extraction,

i don't have to do it almost 60 years. so let's allow the environment to respond. let's allow the ambassador to respond to how bassett, a, a good question. that a limit poses the how would friends feel if the chinese or the russians were to get access to the uranium initiative? when you're doing good agreement is that women should face their own little section 3 minutes. there is no prepare, prepare into excess photo french, do you still to the wrong? it's a fake agreement. i must trust a fact. i also wanted to keep you don't run your minds. we would get to know was a job. we would, we would get to know it was a new government. it's the case before we neglect to all possible economical interest in that crises. given that we stick to principles already. so we went on the waiting list. so the government, they're saving money and go to the if the government says, do not crunch the french to assist,

then ends up fighting against the japanese. we are going to step down to withdrawal from those countries. but it is already the case in many and just the, the hassle and in the following, the withdrawal or all the french is the security situation. the tell your right to a lot about that or isn't. uh, yeah, and that's what i sorry to interrupt you. because we're coming towards the show, but i just wanted to put this question to you. is it the reality of the situation today? that font is losing its last strategic foothold in this region in the west africa? so have region where i, because i've already, as you mentioned, forced it to withdraw troops out sway in molly and booking a fossil is this a strategic defeat, but also a psychological defeat today for france, you are right. it is a unique solution because we are, we are not to just say don't position to present change or to solve the wrong box. you know, those are right is not the fresh because we get to the we are,

we are no. what is to interest is a region, aside from the sightings of terrorist. so the countries, but as i told you, the interest is nothing fighting 0 east. the interest is for the military, for the leaders to cease fall for them. so for the, for the fish alone games, this is really a tragedy because of this trim is deteriorating because although the some fish interest could be here in blue, i'll give you the last word, the in basset. it says the news or is not friends. what are your thoughts about this and what next in this crisis, how do you see the ending? the pre my, the i'm shown is that i'm covered on country by not comfortable nowadays, some element of truth in that, but that does not allow the possibility that perhaps at this point in time african countries are,

we can of the reality that they can do better and i think the next stage, which we hope to see from every kind of get us, you know, if an investment in human copy talk to allow for management and control up their resources. we didn't know if we got it would take time. but that process has to begin in terms of the resolution of the prices i've mentioned earlier on days that they're running around it shut out front of each computer. and i think that's what the next few days with, with tablets, depending on how discuss collision of i'm, you know, distribution between new jo around friends of gentlemen. thank you very much for very insightful discussion. thank you. baset. any collab, normal chavira, donald leonard, bulletins, a thank you for joining us on inside story. and thank you to for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at all just or dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. of course you can join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter handle, is that a j inside story from me for the back to go and the whole team here in doha, thanks for watching by from

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