in a sense of belonging to walk down any street in cartels to feel the presence of expend community every day. heroes keeping communities together. little there's always a little guy, a da 0 visits. it's offensive community in toronto, canada, where locals are fighting to maintain their identity in the face of sky rocketing rents and justification. a sense of community on a jersey to high stakes, me think and so cheap that he is leadership type or the one whole starts with bushes vladimir fulton, and made international efforts to revive the black sea grain deal can go on persuade poor team to be joined and how solid are relations between the 2 countries . this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm fairly bad people. it's a meeting aimed at researching ties between takia and russia. following his re election in may, the turkish leader has taken steps criticized by moscow as hostile, like backing ukraine's big financial membership. the main issue, however, is a revival of the grain deal broken by turkey and the un washer withdrew from in july. besides that, can anyone use his coast relationship with fulton to move towards a possible settlement of the war in ukraine? we'll get to, i guess, in just a moment. but for us, this report from benton mont, the turkish president recept type air to one, is seeking to re establish himself as a mediator between russia and the west. over the war. and ukraine. top of the agenda is meetings of president vladimir putin in the russian resort. of sochi is the re establishment of a green card or across the black sea. last year, turkey and mediation, an agreement between russia and ukraine,

lowering green exports to pass safely through the boxy, that stabilized global grain prices, and was a relief to developing countries. but in july decline to renew the deal. same problem is this. the rush of relief from western sanctions were being met. the u. n . is cooling old parties to find a solution. we believe that the black sea initiative has given a very important contribution to make the foods markets more adequate to all of the objectives of food security, but lately relations between air to one and putting had been strained. in july turkey, a returned a group of prisoners to ukraine, despite promising moscow it would hold them for the duration of the war. the kremlin called it a violation of trust to the meeting. and so cheese evidence that turkey retains some sway with russia. question now is whether it's enough to produce results. bins, mullen, for inside story. the well estimate dog

guess for today's show in moscow is andre backend of a former russian ambassador and deputy chairman of the association of russian diplomats in bangkok is michael bruce. i school global affairs analyst and senior fellow at the atlantic council and it is stumbles to the identity rop associate professor at a sick university. i won't welcome t o. thank you very much for joining us now before we discuss what was achieved and not achieved in. so gee, i want to ask you 1st about the state of the relationship today between to key and russia and andry in moscow. let me start with you. how would you describe this relationship today between present or the one and present fulton? is it on solid ground? well actually uh this uh, the relationship between the neighbors and uh, in several of the questions. uh, we are are developing all relations. so in due way, rather successful,

especially in the economic field. uh, the color duration uh in uh the item. it cannot or do you project in some, uh, original um, no problem. civic have for the, for the importance of you and uh, well as far as the green. uh, do you, uh, there was another discussion. no, and i do most things that uh it was, uh, it breaks me or anything of this kind of froze because uh, the main problem dealing the uh, the grain deal is, uh they do the rest of the content as of the account. there's no install fee about the rest of condos, but we are afraid the turkey and the personal president of broker cannot have the opportunity to affect the polish it was the rest of the companies. so it could

be that the holes these uh, negotiations restore. okay. and so kind to a few trial uh, you know, above the few times, attempts to influence and to make the deal going on, as he said, no major breakthrough on the grain deal andre in sochi. i do want to ask, i want to ask you one more question about the relationship between present or the one and prize important andre. and we saw russia criticize a turkey afore advance on ukraine for accepting and supporting ukraine's bit to, to join nato. do you think uh, russia of use turkey today as a trustworthy and reliable partner? no, nope, nope. it's quite probably comfortable for them to go after what's happened during the last months and the last 2 weeks. and after the decision of mister, they're going to turn back the cream. the goals are over as off the

regimen to your plane of, to the so of course, so they can not plus, if i are less than so as a kind of girlfriend, literally, this is just their relations relation between the being able to accomplish. okay, let me ask the diagnosis symbol about our thoughts on the relationships that i. andre just said that the, the russians don't view this relationship between or the one and put in as a, it's a friendly one certainly. but the russians don't necessarily trust or, or c, 14 is, or, or the one rather as a reliable partner. what's the view from to key? it's been a very difficult balancing act for present. the other one has in it. how solid a relationship is it? as far as turkey is concerned, as well, it's the fact that the relationships between church in a rush are not as close as they have been before the elections in the summer. so since the elections,

it was summer director selections and add ons victory. fee of seeing art on turning his face a bit more towards the west, which is in line with turkish traditional foreign policy from rich dawn had been de meetings on the past couple of years due to conflicts within us, particularly in syria. and also again, conflict with the us about the on put attempt into a chain 2016 and on had blamed us for, for taking part or implicitly supporting the co. mm hm. um. so since then, 13 i had, i don't, i would say, has being to assume closer relationships, but russia. so i would think that relations with russia should,

can only be understood to do any follow relations between turkey and, and the usa of west, but particularly do a site. so there has been a gap between church in russia ever since the elections because of turkey is the 1st one with the west. and also because because of domestic pressure, i would say, yeah, so i don't have the following a strategy of a cold think some of the opposition or adding some of the opposition agenda to his own agenda. so it pro, question policy process and foreign policy or returned to orthodox economic policies. these were the opposition's agenda during the next in campaign. but now since the elections i've done has been adopting on some of these policies, which is so, so they have been changes. yeah, they've been changes and domestic factors of have perhaps into,

in some of these changes. let me ask michel for a, for his thoughts about the state of the relationship between turkey and russian. michael, this turkey is still play a leading role today. sure. well, i'm glad um are the guests from russia underscore the importance of neighborly relations, and i hope when he goes home, he'll take a long, good luck in the mirror and ask himself about how russia has been treating its neighbors. ukraine cub slaughtering civilians and damaging infrastructure in terms of the relationship. if indeed, there is no agreement from these types, i think expectations are very low going into them. it is a loss for global thoughts. so it security because i think in that relationship was important because putting in order one i had a pretty good um uh kind of talking relationship, but i put in the, sorry mister to one is one of the few uh, leaders or as mr. put it on uh, speed,

but speed dial. so it was big. and um, i think he really wanted to see some resolution to this deal. now, one more thing, a couple things about mr to one. number one, he rarely goes into the high stakes negotiation without getting something automated . and number 2, i think this, he also went into this for domestic consumption. when they went into the medium, he also talked about nuclear energy rushes, supplying i think about 4 plus to turkey, tourism, and also trading in their own currencies. the turkish economy is not in very good shape. so we need to show something coming out of that as well. okay, and i'll ask you that in just a minute about what a turkey has gotten out of this meeting, but i want it to come back to andre 1st and talk about the grain deal. we heard person 14 say that russia will only be ready to, rejoined his greendale, once all the agreements awful failed. so talk to us about the conditions. why and why russia pulled out of the, of the agreement in july and what it wants to see happened in order for it to

rejoin it? well, actually, we're tired, right? outside of the above is keep up per se, and life, and a net killer. it a few go to so i re shippy or in the vast and also the story about the russia. uh, you know, uh, i need to the, uh, do the deal by itself. it was uh, the only way all told us because for one year, one year, nothing happened dealing read, the obligation over the rest of the company is uh to give the opportunity for the russian brain and for the russian. uh for the deluxe. that was to go, so we fulfilled all a bit of issues and trust and confidence did not prove view of their obligations more than this is force f world as a rule. because only 3 percent of the grain came to africa and more than 80 percent tend to europe. so this whole story was the start, you know,

because of the pre fix for the, the agreement was that it says that to, to, uh, to full few of the, the, the green uh, green, uh, export to our product and all the countries that i need. oh, because of the congo. so the whole story i talked to before, and uh it re sure it was a great mistake. i think of all government that we waited for while i'm here before we terminated our participation, we should have done it much time before. maybe after 2 or 3 months, so i need to feel that the whole story is not developing, being the right away. okay, let me ask, who am i going to respond to that? my case over might be go ahead and respond to that. over 50 percent. sorry, over 50 percent of the 33000000 metric tons of grain that left under the deal. according to you and figures, which is

a party to the deal when to develop think countries just quickly i returned from the brick stomach just now and mister, put them put out the same way. not christy is that only a small sliver of the grain went to poor countries. that's not true. the fingers are there online. i think they still allow google to work on right. so go ahead and google the figures yourself, sir. okay, andre briefly before i bring back to the 9 to the conversation, you, your response to that. and also i wanted to find out why, you know, even after russia pulled out of the deal, if it was genuine about it, why did it for upset also, attack ukrainian facilities, ukrainian grain storage facilities, facilities. we saw a tax on the port of a desa as well. why? what, but actually uh we are ready to uh, remove that uh the rest on countryside, the gift uh the opportunity for our great and if with less just to go or or we will uh make direct agreements as we originally started with the term start as states so the cable ready negotiation of this 6 applicant states and the in the weeks to, to,

to come, we show supply that free of charge. but this was not the way over developing the 30th or relations. but the, but we could that kind of do not have any of the opportunity just to go. okay, let's say that your thoughts about what we just heard from both andrei and michael and also how you think to key and present, or the one can convince russia to return to this deal. the, the russians seem adamant that do you know that they're angry, cultural bank has to return to the switch system. does press present or the one has the leverage right now to convince the west to, to perhaps, to accept some of these proposals from russia. a well, 1st of all, i should also start with saying that, but before i said hard on his being trying to restore it's his relationship for tricky relationships with the west. but it's important to know that just doesn't

mean he's willing to give up russia as a, as a trade partner with a strategic ally, so hard on and both cost. and they're both programmatic and flexible feeders, and they would, i would expect, especially for i don't, i can say that he would try to keep relations positive id coaching. and the revival of the green core door is important for ad on one for on shipping foot prices down. that's important because um, now local elections are coming up in march. mm hm. so that's one factor. but in addition to that, having that meeting role ad on has been branding himself as someone who can talk to both the west and russia. cis mediating role has been important for, for him also domestically that his being quarantined can prestige.

so he will try to convince western the actors to um, um, to allow the russian exports to reach global markets and the russian cultural bank to be connected to the switch system again. and perhaps actually are the ones now closer relations with the west. could i pay off and, and come useful and actually benefiting russia? i, you know, i can sing them to michael. interesting. the present person go on. and so today said that moscow, russia has a right to refuse a deal in his current form because it was not fair, but at the same time, he was the one who negotiated the deal in the 1st space with the united nation. so how do you explain this change of tone from from turkey, a shirt. well,

i think what um happened, um, weeks, uh months actually before the deal, the rough ends, the bill, every pulled out where's the russians were deliberately slowing down clearance of the ship. so the strips that were leaving ukraine and going to to the foreign markets. so they basically sabotaged the deal themselves. but that's number one. look, the other thing is, if i can go back, sorry to something you said earlier about the russians bombing your credit and part infrastructure, you know, let's call a spade a spade. this, the strikes are a direct strike on the global food supply chain. i don't hear the rates from western capital is that this is happening and i think the rushman strategy is to decimate ukraine in port the infrastructure to, to the degree that it can function. and the russians thinking that they're going to be able to get some world buyers to take to buy grain from them. that would be

a very bad development. so what needs to happen right away today? not even tomorrow is for ukraine to proceed with those unilateral court orders that they've established across the bike. so you, in recent weeks convert container ships to those big ball carriers. i carry crane with the cover of the western allies, support surveillance plans, and also farmed as cords if that's what it takes. why should poor people in egypt and many other countries be starving to death because of the arrogance of a small group of men in the kremlin. okay, let's allow andre to respond under your response to that, as well as mobile. what? so this one fits is just the location of the biggest, uh, uh, you know, cheap propaganda which we are kidding uh, each day. so i do wanna thing that uh, as an investment or i should. uh, well, go on notice pointing for such uh, you know, claims. well actually,

um we are ready to return back can only be one condition. uh, if the shipments so over the russian brand and fertilizers were gone. and we could have a good time for that. uh, these uh these uh, you know, export facilities uh accomplished only after the weekend that it turned back to be the claim. do you go and do you want until no, it's not a great deal, but it's for the deal as a, as i told you. so i would, the thing is in the kinds of rest of our lives for what eliza and all of them are pop punk. those if they get give access for our our shipments, it will be okay. if not, we will block the rest of the do because it's fail, it's fail. okay, now, but at the time the last day i started shortage to you better stop the river already took a liberate the gift, accessed to be a great name. great. but we waited for several months until the other part of the,

of the, of the green deal. we looked on push, but we didn't have any opportunity for our shipments to go on. and that was the start of the present day crisis. okay, i wanted to ask you that at a time when we're seeing ukraine intensify, it's offensive and it's drones targeting russia. is there a real appetite to think for diplomacy and for negotiation, or is it just, you know, talk a sorry about sanctions? right. well, i think that the rest and gone through scanned the muse themselves to be sunk since it was gone. we had a great confidence. half of the thing is we kept gray and we kept oil look at uh, a gas. so they kept uh, you know, a sufficient level of the sophisticated weaponry. so of course, it's not a pleasant thing. took up sections against does, but it's not possible and we will go on for our development of abilities. i options to sure, but assume the day they will come when that they invest in confidence to will stop . they are stupid policy of the store trying to sanction for the biggest uh,

the largest the account, 3 in the world. it makes just confident the role best buys so much you to let us sources like i'm sure it, let's try and move the conversation for now and said, i want to come back to you because present, go on, has offered himself as a mediator to settle this ukraine conflict and i want to ask you whether this is feasible. can he use his of close relationship or what is perceived as close relationship with putting to, to move towards the settlement of this conflict and you create while he is going to try. that's um, i could most certainly say that because i say important for him, like i said, both for domestic politics and international politics. that would be a great achievement for our dawn. and it could help him to expand his support base back home. he's describes what many people expected actually

um, since the elections are done has been not polarizing, but actually trying to unify the um, the opposition and his supporters. so i think that would be a success there. mean reaching peace between ukrainian or russian which loans and womans which are the ones mediating rules, churches, me dating rule that bought a brand him the power, the prestige that he's trying know probably is, is going to be his last term as president. and he would like to be remembered with this magazine, so he will try and he leverage he has on the, the close relations. now a he has with the west for that purpose. but of course, i mean the remote, there are multiple actors and we cannot quite predict what each actor will will do

. so i cannot say whether the piece will be reached in the short run, or in which period it will be reached at could be reached. but i think it's in the best interest of all actors. and it looks like, i mean, like, what do you when statements about softening sanctions toward russia? i never think i could see that. um, some of the russian demands will be respected more in the short run compared to um, the past couple of months. hm. okay michael, your thoughts about the sanctions which andrea also talked about. he said, at some point these functions are going to have to go and, and that has been, it would seem some movement and perhaps some reflection about lifting some of these sanctions against russia to give diplomacy a chance. under no circumstances should maybe they be loose, and in fact they should be tightened to because you still have um the latest and

the least people in the late circles around mister fulton investing in certain countries travelling with a band. and so they would set a very bad precedent if the un and the you go ahead and allow the trust and the bank to get back into swift. if they allow that frozen roxanne fertilizer to leave you parts, it would only embolden and encourage other dictators to act like rice ups. i should also add if i can that as or i guess from us it was speaking. i forgot to mention that the belling cat and that they're very authoritative. incredible bodies have actually been tracking these phantom russian ships that have been turning off their transport. transponders and shipping illegally stolen ukrainian grain through russian ports to world markets. they're acting like the pirates, and they should be held a comfortable for that as well. okay,

andre your response if you want to respond. and i also want to put to the question about a present or the one offerings offering himself as a mediator to resolve this conflict between russia and ukraine. ah, how does moscow view this and is there still room an appetite for diplomacy? well actually the last thing is that we can dial to the sincere we sure all of the gone to be sincere, remediate, or uh, key is uh, the member arriving dokey is the member of the nato. and we are open to leak having the, the, or, uh, well, uh against it and they have to on the 3rd, is that a of ukraine? so this is a very strange. sure. uh, you know, i mean the 8 or which belongs to the block. we are waging war we, we uh so uh, i don't think that up this that them so it means the gun of your reach. uh, uh,

you know, some, uh, some send you both success so, okay. uh, if you would like to go and he is free, but it seems to me that mainly visa attempts to uh, to on the line is that frontier needs to be let me do that or because of the attempt to put in the, in the, in the you and uh, which will be letters you want the piece of overall this month. to go on or is uh, securing the new place and then you are url. oh was overall turkey and these is security council arrangements and uh, in the un structure. they uh they are giving the auto good man that the, the door okay. should be busy. uh, these do go to the concept because uh, it's a very important major media. and so that's why fi is very much. i mean, just the gun is very much a ingenuous. think about, well, the andre just coming back to my question, just coming back to my question,

the war cannot go on forever. right. is russia interested in settling this conflict and in diplomacy interested in diplomacy? well, the thing is that the majority of they've gone through, so there's nothing this tend or they tend to, to do so to make sure that they do not understand the nature they measured is the publication of, of the 2nd world war, again, profession. and they've got against the nationalism of it to us on the 3rd of the crate and you, because there was a 1200000 on, all right? that are so that, that, that, or you were kind of over your brain. so there is your think the same, but all this is the same about the euro of the confidence of utah printed 2 companies of europe they, uh, you know, helped people are against their war against the. so if you're in a so okay, can you find the issues of the war on the okay, might not allow you to respond briefly before we end the show, please? sure, sure. yeah, i mean, it's almost not worth responding because it's the typical russian narrative. but

anyway, all i would say is that what we're seeing happening right now in terms of diplomacy, the world getting much smaller for russ harper. mr. good. and we saw what happened and break. so now they're going to be doing diplomacy with the mullers and around what sign up with other rogue states. so i wish them luck with that and they would see what, how little they get and return and leave it. but they do, you know that? yeah, thank you so much for we've run out of time. unfortunately. unfortunately, thank you so much for a great discussion andre box and all of us to die. then you're up and michael bush, high school. thank you and thank you as well for watching. you can always wash this program again any time by visiting our website at all, just 0. don't com. for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. of course, you can join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter. i handle these ad page right inside, starting from move slowly back to go and hosting here. thanks for watching the

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