in 5433, mark upfront takes on the big issues. this isn't a one off just talking about a systemic issue here. black lives don't really matter. in the police for unflinching questions is war with lowanda, imminent rigorous debate? people are dying because of lots of medical treatments, challenging conventional with the fact that people are starting to get angry about this is in itself a sign of progress. join me, mark them on hills upfront one out 0, a new 100 years of friendship. the promise of north korea is lead of visiting roches presidents, all sorts of new era imaging and relations between the 2. what would it mean for the war and ukraine? should the west be white? this is on story, the

hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy say that north korea and ross, you're appeared to be 7 team, the ties with a high profile visit this week by kim jamal. and he's how talks is by the way of photon and discuss defense corporation. many in the west questioning the timing. both nations are facing international sanctions. most goes, forces fighting a new crime. well, what all the 2 leaders hoping to get out of this trip then put back to our guests in a moment. but 1st, this report from symptom on a hand getting a close look north korea's leader given yahoo and got to see all the latest features of a russian made fighter jet on the ground. and disney hair this latest stop isn't rush as far east as part of chemist days, long visit to the nation. 2 days earlier, he met russian president by them are booting

a space space. it was their 1st face to face meeting and for years there been great into the patient and the lead up to the summit. the north korean leader travel for about 40 hours is armor train. crossing the border on tuesday, the to help with the kremlin, called very substances discussions, but little was revealed publicly i'm on the president who has shown a deep interest on providing a put unit to engage in a conference at a space launch facility. which is like the heart of a space, power nation, and giving us a chance to gain deeper understanding of the current and future the space combination. many believe this meeting could mean new developments in the word ukraine and for north korea's military ambition. we continue to urge north korea to meet its public commitments not to support russia's warn you find no nation on a planet. nobody should be helping mister putin kill innocent ukrainians. and if

they decide to move forward with some sort of arms, you will obviously we'll take, we'll take the measure of that and we'll move and we'll deal with it appropriately . but kim don't appear to express support for exclusions war of the days of she get 20 years ago. the russian army and people have certainly been a great victory in the sacred struggle for the punishment of the great evils. the claims page him on you and feeds an expansionist illusion will create an environment for peaceful development. showing young is under heavy un sanctions for its nuclear and ballistic missile program. there are reports of food shortages in parts of the country as its economy worse, and then both leaders of items to trade and pressures at home that might push them towards the strategic partnership. kim says the trip has elevated their countries ties to a new level, but it may be china's influence that will prove crucial, since both moscow and killing young rely on it for trade. a defense amount of him for inside story. gotta keep it was the

last thing i guess. and now we have joining us from saul and right land called director of the north korea focused new side n k news in washington. jenny town, a senior fellow at the security focused american think tank the students and center and in moscow, andre bucklin or vice president of the association of russian diplomats. a warm welcome to one if i could stop then with jenny. so jenny was brought lease to lee this together. what's prompted this visit now? well, this is a relationship that has been deepening for a couple of years now, especially since rush has invasion of ukraine. the idea that, you know, there have already been rumors of cooperation of potential arms transfers from north korea to russia. i think part of the reason why we see an actual stomach now,

maybe because north korea is just opening from cove it, it says conjunctions. first time out of the country, sense the locked down in january 2020. but it's also coming on the heels of um try lateral summit between the us, south korea and japan. so there may be some of this political signaling going on as well. where if, you know, the, the us and its allies are going to have these high level political meetings talking about their deepening relationship. so is the other side of that equation, depending relationship. let's go with the. so andre line calls, when we talk about deepening relationships, what does it break down to? there have been claims that north korea wants everything from grain to help with the satellite technology, ballistic technology, maybe in summer ring technology. what do you make of it? the one to every c, as long as it's free of charge. it's a major problem. most scary and most mon, this is

a nation which is very beginning to pay exhibits. and it's a quite for so is a good question is more of what they want. they want every see as much as possible, but what they are going to get. and of course, in this case, rush raises and driving seat and it gets the rush. if you decide what is going to sell and for beach price. all right, matt, spring in perspective from moscow. we have andre backs on all of that. so andre, what does russia need from north korea? it's been reported in west and so kohls that russia simply need small alternative around small bits and pieces for that war. and ukraine. well, i don't think that a career noon and goal is, uh, as it main uh, you know, point of interest to know me are much more interesting in the far is starting

a situation. and it seems to be, and this is the point of view or something. oh our experts, the thing that uh uh, in the p, the, to come north got it can play a role which i played in the 1962 in the, in the struggle. busy between more school and a washing don't show the. busy mainly what discrepancy now do you see the far eastern situation and global situation as a cool, who's stuck on to addictions between the, to me with the super forest. and then you are url that those color you can play in these uh, uh, this uh, you know, situation. so, i mean, what do you make of those claims? can north korea play a significant role? do you expect north korea will be providing russia with arguments and weapons as

well? everybody is picking about providing all of these uh, uh, some of the bands and ms. charles from may tina know, scott, it's uh, 1112. what asked me because we do not need. busy of this kind of help, as i told you, much more significant for us to make is the united states to then your additional, the insurance on that that i thought it was most cut exactly like it was in 1962. as i told you when he was, uh, was uh or a main agent to be sure, gave this feeling to the united states of america. and uh, it was really important issue. and now we also at the. busy the point where we need to add something additional uh to uh, from a to or a you know. busy the stones, again the united states of america and this additional element can be and you, guy and oh wow. uh oh, what danger. busy rich accounted to you it's uh,

the most uh, cody yeah. okay jenny, do you agree with that? this trip isn't necessarily about exchanging ministry hardware. it's simply a reminder to the west. but hey, don't forget, we have the north korea called but we can activate as well. i don't think it's it either or i think it's both. i do think there, there has been expressions of need on the russian side for additional artillery and munitions. and it is something that the north koreans can provide in, in systems that are already compatible with soviet, with russian systems. will it be game changing in russia as war and u. k? no, of course not. but it can help pro long or fighting efforts. but i agree with andre, the, you know, this is, this is a larger game that's being played here. and we are really seeing the reformation of these ideological blocks in security blocks. so you have the us led to security

block with us out created japan deepening relations without creat japan's deepening relations with nato. and then now you also have real deepening cooperation and a greater sense of collective security going on between russia and china and north korea. and north korea playing a really important role as an important security partner to both of them in this sort of block on the block competition. and so north korea does have higher political value and security value. now, then it did a few years ago, and i think we will see more of this play out from cooperation, both with russia and china. all right, let's go to sol again, get the perspective of andre line calls the so ultimately, what would the transfer of russian hardware mean for north korea is north korea on the verge of a technological leap when it comes to satellites and rockets, it will when it comes through, it gets through ms. silas is

a remarkably successful in the accept a rating made at technology, go leap around. 2017. lindsey successfully developed the fewest inter continental buddies, thickness side, to campbells, the russian. across. phil, i would probably disagree as he is both andre in jenny. i'm sort of expect that know thomasville, opposite russian technology is going to happen. exactly. because why do you expect to andre? it's because they don't see what process will take from it. because it's one of the theory of rails, you rush, it gets all tillery round. it's exec i did it rounds, it will can come. but do you know how many a 2 liter brown's no scary, or should ship to russia to pay for some kind of sophisticated me so to acknowledge . and once such technology is sent to no scary or actually we lose

control. wait. no scary of unknown for they have bonded full habit of edie seelong . 8 z c have received from isaac companies and they don't see why it's going to be next. and this not one, not going to be the case. so the not viewable nearly build something for themselves . they do accept a, uh, a sell it as a sub this technology to everybody who needs a nice miss out technology. and there are many companies and symbols. and they've gone to this new base to know scary enough to russia, but then, but you're sure the rational site and the stance is very about and all this stuff, all this, you know, decision to craft. so let's say meeting at the space lodge for cd t ols is highly publicized. these is because they meet the fact that he ever seen. for me, it looks like a political stroll. actually, as of today, cuz skip directed the united states. as a reminder of eve,

i married comes to additive say in eastern europe, or actually we will be able to create problems for the united states in east asia. however i was, i would be the, i would say that they made ship target is that was good. not flushing but but so why did i have been dogs about possible saves of a shipment of the south. scary and munition to you. great. and vine. most getty, until you tell of what you like, but most gary is a tiny country based population of lives in 3 to 5 needle the glade, 25. it's probably a really less and is cd is the uh, the developed economy. you know, the old nephew showed data. is that bill cappy, the ged is $1600.00, it's not say, estimate this old nor scary of estimate provided to the yet they cannot spread use much and munition wow. scary of cut and russia is good reasons. to make sure that

any use in the vote directly arrive to agree. so right. and then all right, let's give jenny it. yeah. you see, you might, you made the point. let's give jenny a, an opportunity to come back in on this. why don't we making too much of a big deal about this idea of the transfer of all, tillery some would point out the point which andre is making about the production capacity and also the trends, the capacitive or so. so there's a couple of points here. um, during the trip there was no talk about middle technologies. just to be clear, it wasn't that russia was demonstrating it was willing to cooperate and, and talk about technology transfer on missile technology that was really focused on rockets and, you know, potentially satellites. there has been, you know, this other tour of an aircraft factory. so, you know, but i, i agree. who is with andre in the sense that, you know, we're not talking miss old transferred missile technology. and i doubt that we'll

see ever transfers of homeless little systems or anything like that. um, but i do think there's a strong signal here that the north, that the russians are willing to work with north korea, even on distinction technologies including you know, satellites and, and, and rockets that will help advance north korea is capabilities more quickly than what they're achieving on their own and they have had great success on their own as well. but there are things that they can learn from that will help them accelerate their progress in terms of their production capabilities. you know, again, this is very unclear of what rushes even asking from north korea if it's just stockpiles, or if it is to actually produce more munitions. and i think there is a recognition that if they do want more and munitions and an actual factors, there are other things that rush i can do to help provide the kind of resources that are needed in order for that. and. ready trade industry to um,

to pick up that top to pick up that task. all right, you, what made a point, the jenny would you want to take to, i'll guess, to moscow and right backs on those. do you agree with that? i think jenny was saying that she sees assigned, that russia would be willing to work with north korea on some of the sanction technologies. do you agree with that? as ross, you're going to ignore some of the transfer to transfer. some of the sanctions rather transfer perhaps west and more of the technology to north korea that would undermine the western sanctions regime and attempt to isolate north korea. well, i agree is that uh, there is a record to move it to a new element as far as a sanctions policy. uh, i am against uh, north country is good insurance. uh there is a big tendency and most go and many. busy of all absorbers and be with a specialist. i saying that uh we must terminate, terminate completely. our participation is in the practice of sanctions against

north dakota. yeah. because of the for the previous uh, sanctions. uh, so at the, in general, in general, um and uh, in north korea too. i don't know think that to reveal but claim this policy bought in today or jerome. so we really more it more and more of the due to the development of the situation. the please take into consideration that we all know at the very specific juncture or we are of the 3 or more against the collective risk as uh, the more because they call it. busy so all additional opportunities for us to have more opportunities and before we had a raging against the risk. so basically somebody uh, but uh, you know, significant and useful additional facility. so no study uh is uh, also among of those new elements. uh to be, uh, you know, as

a plus uh for the present day opportunities to prepare for univision before. okay. those are interesting points. first of all, briefly jenny was the bottom line here. is this increasing all intensification of relations between russia and north korea? does a total represent and a single, the game changer for the war and ukraine? what's the bottom line that i don't believe it does. again, what, what north korea can offer can maybe help pro long north gray or russia's war fighting ability, but this is not game changing technologies here that we're talking about, or in game changing numbers. okay. and right in sol in south korea, does it a tool make knowles korea, at least something of a more central player in the ukranian conflict from the, from the north korean perspective. does it outside diplomatic standing? no, no, they can fed see if they want it, but it's, it was a marginal change. it's

a button on the grading integration versus atrial this most gay. and then me. and you should the absence of southgate in the nation or present. so sounds good immediately. me, you're not going to seriously and come in in friends, they eventually will come over the conflict. all right, andre, in moscow. is this a toll changing or impacting then the global and regional balance of pallet is russia building a stronger and to west and the lines through visits like this. and i see that a certain. busy as a certain case will come fast between uh oh uh, participants. uh in this, uh, our program is that uh, perhaps the mainly it will change uh, the balance of over paying change in certain aspects. the balance on file fall or in the far east. and in general, but as far as the ukrainian store is concerned,

i doubt that uh that will be some immediate direction. busy i need the help or assistance uh from the, from the part of the study and uh today uh, president uh when he was on setting the. busy relevant question, he said that we do not need it. uh because we have already uh, 3 uh the 3 compet 1000 persons. so russian persons that to said that they are willing to join the me with the company. so we don't need any additional help from, from the portal. most katia, in person, that loan or anything else, i'm both so well. uh, you must not exist already there, but unity and the possibility of the north got a year to feed us these. i mean nation recapping, now, we have 24 hours a day to meet with the uh, mirrors on the allow me to present you with the countenance of which is that russia

has been seeking arms from all the countries in countries like iran. why would we believe that russia has the factory is working 24 hours a day is to produce everything it needs for the ukraine will. uh well, uh if so that will be some additional opportunity. okay. uh about 3 us picking it both major and not major proctor. it will be not a. busy busy major factor if i have the most carrier will send something, it will not change the visit you is in your additional helper is useful, but it's not the main element of your dealing views. the present day. uh, negotiations moves the north korea. i mean, that was, that is something else so much, most of the significant dealing of you for all or balance or fall or is i'd be the united states of america. all right, jenny, i'm andre must go mentioned an interesting point about the changing of balance of power in the far east. and i'm wondering what strong the ties between russia and

north korea mean showing young is now not so reliant on china. this is of course, assuming that north korea get something of a good be back out of moscow. well, i know it, it's not, uh, i don't think it is that black and white, you know, north korea has its own relations that's going on with china. china was the 1st ambassador invited back for an ambassador invited back to turn young. it is definitely cultivating that relationship as well. we don't see a real try lateral. um, you know, we don't see the kind of try lateral alliance forming in the way that it is us dr. japan as of yet. but you know, in the last uh, parade, and the last major political parade and, and military parade. in north korea, you did have russian representatives and chinese representatives there. so you do see, you know, a greater alignment as, as andre and moscow talked about, of, of,

you know, china, north korea and russia against the west. and especially against the us, you know, lead a security block in the region, and this is going to exacerbate that. but again, these are all trends that we've been seeing already. it's 6 celebrating some of that and it's taking him to the next level, but it's not necessarily a new development in the region. but one that we probably, i think a lot of people haven't been paying enough attention to. and now this is the reality of where we are. so just briefly going back to andre box on of in moscow when you talk about the changing of balance of power in the far east. what, what are you referring to? are we talking about? north korea is power, we talk about the balance of power between russia and the us in the far east. uh uh, actually uh we are thinking about for is to install and several angles and several

angles. uh, 1st of all. busy part of it used to is a very near to the 3rd day of the united states, our america. so we are thinking about over uh, making additional shitters. uh then your for the 3rd at the all the united states of america just to pull them out or comes to feel what we are feeling when they're speaking about their rockets on that, that, that of europe and confidence that the several compet is killing me. those 2 or capital that so many interesting. all right, forgive me for, for jumping in. but does that mean that or do you think that russia will really help knows, create to develop it's rockets, it's um, it's missile capabilities. i mean, is it even in rushes in the house on the panel or on its boulder? yeah, yeah. sort of thing. so there's an up so literally new element which was not one of your to go on 2 years ago. busy or even 2 months ago or after these talk,

severe thinking about this stuff, what unit to business? absolutely. a new relevant to the development of the federal cs. very well done. said to you some additional venture to that that, that sense. so america and this juncture, and this juncture at this moment when we have so bad, military and political relation to the very un, really low blow to a 2 piece additional venture to or the clear cut to. and i mean, as with durham, and i'll, i'm going to jump, it will be able to watch what else is we'll be in the all interest. the interesting, let's go to andre, though, in sole and off the question, how would china view this, this deepening of relations between russia and north korea? and perhaps if what andres predicting that russian might enhance north korea's ms. heil rockett a capability, how badging view that a diabetes ever fcc, going to do it?

most of them commented cj in pm, if you think that phone call press getting put in and say mr. put in don't do. as advice you will have cd is probably is this your oil sale and you would even use and misstep. we can set the covenants using p. i've, even though i'm talking about the idea about so you don't think it's going to happen most gatty abuse me. so yes, because china view not tell you rate x x x a s q sup port for developing of the messiah. and you clip potential in that was it, most of you personally, however, fortunately, ibd, if zip goals this talks about the rock for being able of 14, you know, given technology is basically a kind of bluff which is kelsey bluff a to put the additional impression of the united states advance it's happens try and it will slow, but because a very simple it isn't shared and that does not board probably for ration of

waiting period technology chain that does not trust most cutty che no, no. is it no scary? it cannot be controlled and chain the would be far more heavy. it is no scary is stable by the quite and the level of control of china. it come on me control leverage. what most getting in russia is enough to stop anything like that. should it ever happen, but they believe it's not going to happen. anybody. it's been a fascinating discussion and it could go on for a lot longer, but i'm afraid time is out. so we're going to have to find con guests jenny, in washington, dc. andre line calls in sole and andre bucklin of in moscow. thank you all for joining us and thank you to for joining the show. you can see the program any time again by visiting our website. i'll do 0. don't com for further discussion at over to our facebook page. so let's facebook dot com forward slash

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