stories of hope and inspiration. schultz documentary from around the world that celebrates colleagues and resilience in the times of time on the phone and looking for bodies and offices teams in libya are still searching for people also to dams. class how could structures like leaves fail? how safe of exams around the world and is climate change of facts. so this is inside story. the

hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a van or the last few years of not being easy for the people of libya, a country divided by war and instability. also the revolution that over through mom would've adolphe, the collapse of 2 dams, has now brought new grief thousands of dead or missing with half of the east and city of deadman wiped out in the deluge that is off the underlines, libby is political chaos vital and relatively modern instructions collapsing after years of neglect in a broken country, but didn't extreme climate events also play a role. what lessons can be learned to provide similar tragedies elsewhere. we're bringing out gas shortly. first, let's take a closer look at why these 2 dams was so vulnerable. well, they were built in the late 19 seventy's. they had not been maintained to more than 20 years. this, despite reports that more than $2000000.00 was allocated for this purpose more than

a decade ago. many crucial facilities have been neglected in the for decades. with heavy rain authority say the dams didn't stand the chance. once they collapse, the will of water swept through the city of the night, sweeping away buildings and people into the sea. a correspondent, the suicide of dollars in tripoli, with an update the houses of people in the city of them that are still desperately waiting for the aid to arrive. so far we have seen pounds of companies across the globe, chips sending a to to the city and surrounding town. but the state of the destruction is so immense that these a, that has arrived is significantly insufficient. people in the city of dana are seeing that they're seeing aid is coming through the aerial vehicles, land seats, but so far they haven't been able to receive enough. and now the main concern is shifting from the risk of foods to an other issue of health issues or officials.

they're wanting that an academic quote see the, the city because of the wilton born diseases. and the officials that they have 12 to they're saying they're now at the expectations to evict, created the city, or they're not either completely or partially in, on suspension off. it's brad of an academics from the what's important diseases. but that's not going to be an easy task because you're still talking about tens of thousands of people being spock in the city and also the whole infrastructure of the city, the rules, the ways that connects to the, to the rest of the country are collapsed or destroyed, and the libyans here are seeing that they cannot do that by themselves. they need international community more and more to be involved. but one thing is so clear that the disaster here is not over and story steve unfolding and people are tremendously suffering for sad. 020244, the as i story,

the a call that spring. and i guess now i have joining us in west suite and a small elisa research fellow at the german institute for global and area studies and the whole side of hire a lawyer who specializes in climate change, low policy and advocacy. i'm didn't truly island edmond hall ti talked to the engineer. i'm president of engineers. island will welcome to all of you. all could start with admin from what we know. sofa admin. does it look like the lack of maintenance was a key issue here? i suppose the 1st thing we should probably start with would be just informed viewers and you know, bodies of them. and i suppose the damage to be that, well, the big structure built across a river or a stream. and its main job is to, is to act as a reservoir. so it's a big a, it's like

a big joint bachelor. and the water storage can be used for drinking for irrigation of cups, making electricity and so on. and dams have being billed for, for quite a long time. in fact, divorced damn was based about 3000 b c. and there's about $50000.00 dams around the world. and the engineering of a dime is actually quite imparted. and from both the design, but also from the use and the maintenance is an important factor as well. all right, that spring and asked by them was this a case from what we know so far from the the comments which have come to lights, the information which has come to lights about the history of these dams is it looked like a case of political instability and perhaps even corruption, disrupting maintenance. oh, it says 4 sites and an even before 2011. there is a historical negligence to the eastern region. it's part of the grievance between the east and west politically. now it's driven from that. it has its roots

back in good the face time because the east as always outlined itself with the, with the royal family, with this new c a comedy. and so there's always been an opposition and tension with get that fee. and then that was also a, a town, but typically affected by these conflicts over the yeah, over the past decades. what is clear is that the dimes have not being repaired is insufficient information, even though there's a company that has posted on the website that they have some maintenance between 200-781-2012. the attack corruption report shows that it has the, as the, as it has been said that there has been a budget located to it, the low calls. so in that i have been wondering about it. there's been a seminar, the, there's a step, there was a study that was published up and i lived in university last year around the

fragility of these infrastructures. so it's, it's, it is definitely a come by an issue that is compounded by a neglect, a gross mismanagement to funds of public funds, public test, corruption and conflict, all like corruption, conflict, but solid. is it all down to maintenance and governance has climate change also plays a role in this tragedy? so my heart goes to the people of libya. i just want to start with the things bucks done. definitely. so comes to driving with contrast with these quite frequently, and i know what it feels like um, to be honest, i don't think we have sufficient information at this point to determine whether this is a climate catastrophe, per se. what we do know though, is that extreme by the events and now investigated by climate change like the flood, the floods in boxes started in 2020 to be have sufficient information. now review.

ringback research back to the factual data to indicate that yes, climate change had exacerbated those blogs made than was blooming. cause is a mod i take by the thoughts and because there's more erotic greenville adventure greenville. and even with the focused on the monsoon cycles, increase the number the expense of the reinforce was across different broad across different districts and brought and says, and i believe that even with libby, i'm sure the intensity of the storm, the intensity of the natural disaster has been exacerbated by climate change, but do you need to vehicle most scientific evidence on that front? all right, so the jury is still out on that one. but if i'm keeping an eye on what the climate is doing, edmond is anyone do we know if anyone is now learning from this coming out? maintenance on and checks on all the dams in the country this, these were the dams and reservoirs, right? the best right? well, i suppose, you know, there's quite a lot known about dams in the 1st case and in this specific instance,

i think we're bunch of the ways and, and establish all the factors because and climate change is a big factor. as i mentioned, it damages like a big that so, and if you just have to withdraw her going to, it just came to take preload, obviously, maintenance and things like that are also important. but you can also have other issues like structure failures, foundation problems, and you know, our natural disasters cannot even cause damage to fail and put it in this instance that there is a question of, of maintenance. there is a question about time is and, and time is probably the biggest risk factor that's there because that, that model is getting hotter and here can carry more water. and then when does it change in temperature, you can have it quite significant rainfall and that, that's the scenario that actually happens with most dams. and assuming that there maintain royce and, and, and so on, you know, so maybe looking at climate change as well as maintenance would be

a big avenue of investigations, the red light spring. and i'll go ahead, sorry, yeah, i just, i just want to add this to the time it change is a factor. i'm sure that's fine. the science was supported soon, soon, fully be as well. but with them, i think it's, it's, it's important to recognize the dams are only as good as the management is really an in the know that the, if the germans knows but storms are coming. and then there's going to be a project eventually in full. and then they need to be cognizant of the catch much levels of that. and then they have to release the suspect they have to release the excess florida, which is how the man saw nice things of that sort of activity was not happening. and i don't have enough information to comment on the get it all right. i it wasn't happening. there were rain last year and there was a heavy rather heavy rain falls last year. and the, the,

the end they were alarm bells bringing about the level of, of will to increasing the dams and not, not only old, but the structure is also insufficient for, for, to hold that to, to it's, it's, i mean, it's an old structure. so it needed also to be expanded then and carefully managed, but there is no effective time that the, that in addition to that was the, all the areas of failure in governance. it's been reported for example, it communities that sprung up and being established too close to them. oh yeah, i mean, um, there is, there is virtually almost no urban planning in libya. and it's not just the, the, the, it's a infrastructure like time. so it's also the roads doesn't not maintained in this entire areas in, in libya that don't have proper roads. and so that at the moment that one of the biggest obstacles in getting to a, than rescue mission is that the fact that's most of the roads with this towards to

the town except to one that is overwhelmed. so it's, it's not just the dams. no, it's roads, it's electricity, it's a telephone infrastructure, it's it's infrastructure. general hospitals, you name it's interesting. i want to come back to salt or announced this question now with what we do know at least of climate change. does it mean the standard standards of dam construction maintenance standards of even all the aspects of urban planning really need to change now they didn't catch off with the new reality . we're living in. absolutely. i'm glad you lost this. i think because climate change is penetrating, pretty much all of us. it's a lot existence. we need to upgrade everything, and that includes our infrastructure rehabilitating. instruct, frontier on his routine basis should become a priority for the government. we shouldn't be waiting for natural disasters to come about before we start sort of monitoring and then talking, commenting on the maintenance of important infrastructure and like and like

a small also said roads, you know, i, i boss and boss of the, of this. and also i'd like to say that because of the climate impacts on the google sold or buying large the same, i think bach has done went through the same kind of impacts and the week of the 2022 floods. but with that construction and with the kind of impacts climate change can have on them. so i think that would translate equally to the global note that there are also a wonderful to try a change. they also wonderful diploma for us. next, it's a weakening the foundations of them. they're also one. and if i take the items are going to be seen or end up being seen, even in the global not. so it's important that they be technology drawn, saw from the north, through the, to loose out to the weekend and we can begin maintained and repaired our infrastructure accordingly. on that point,

that makes me one that edmond listening to what solder was saying about the need for change and keeping in mind, of course that vist um these 2 dimes were not that old given the life of dams, right. we're talking around 50 is so is always safe in thinking that writing this one off as a kind of a, a one, a freak accident or all the accidents waiting to happen around the world is a real quick your them map so to speak. know when, when sure, definitely right, not right, this office as a ones off because there's lots of things changing. and i think, you know, you, you'd have to look at the infrastructure, the huge, but also the condition i think is it being maintained. and the big change that's also happening is the time is because for example, a lot of these things are models and plans based on maybe a once in a 500 year event. but, but the world is not staying at stake. so those events are becoming an awful lot more frequent. therefore that heavy rain fall heavy snowfall and excess fluids on the dams at our light keeps are more likely to happen as

a result of climate change. we also need to make sure, in terms of our been finding that to, you know, that even the events that those events happen at what happens with the flood waters . and if those houses built in that area, that's going to be a problem. you know, and, and then the can also be other geo political factors, you know, such as conflict, instability and are all the things that are happening at do they happen then plus the degree of governance. and what's the policy positions? because you have to put the resorts as into looking after our critical infrastructure, the engineering community annual. quite an awful lot about dams. but you have to put the resources in place that they're maintained that they're looked after. and did you competent people doing this? all right, you mentioned that had been political stability and governance. well let's those definitely what issues when it comes to the libya scenario. let's take a little bit of a in depth look into the be a has of course 2 administrations. let's try and break down for you who controls

walk in the west, including the capital tripoli, the internationally recognized governments of national unity is in palate, is led by private us down to how many debate by and is backed by the un. it control was the area in tough along the map. now in the east world for the for how started is impala supported by a parliament in top broke. he controls the areas in orange, his self, his self style draw the armies back by russia. the united arab emirates and egypt, the rest of the country shown in gray is under the control of various groups. so asthma you're looking at that kind of scenario. if we start thinking about political instability, joe political challenges, we might have a long list of countries which are susceptible to this kind of problem, not just libya, right? syria, iraq, afghanistan, the list can get very long, very quickly. indeed,

countries that have on the ones conflict on the or our, on the going conflict that countries the us, susceptible and fragile, not just infrastructure and, and, and struck to, and politically the fragile in responding the fragile in the way they would coordinate and for, and react in preparedness because they, they allocate the results is 2 other things, right? to continue with goals and medicare campaigns, which is the case for libya. that's where lots of the budgets go. additionally, countries like that, like libya, they securitized everything. one of the biggest challenges of the past stays in coordinating between the east and west is the fact that they are treating the disaster as a military campaign. they are stablish in checkpoints. they're running around with this, but of terry. um, you know, armored vehicles obstructing,

sometimes movements being unhelpful for no reason whatsoever. it's just, that's how that respond when the rain was stopped when the rain was falling heavily in the, in, in, in friday on friday and saturday, the response from both the east and west, although separate was, was similar. and in that they offer, they've established confused. ask people to remain at home, which is their response. when classes book you. i saw you were talking about when to go about the need to update dams and infrastructure. do we have any idea? does anyone actually follow keep track of how many dams around the world right now might be obsolete because of climate change? i think people probably countries probably do monitor and they should be monitoring, especially in the back of the kind of driving catastrophes we're seeing on a routine basis. and, but that said, i think what should also be testable in his baby fleet is whether this narrative surrounding dams as the go to solution to combat climate change is

a good one. maybe we can talk about alternative solutions instead of the especially given done. so one roubles to time it inputs and then you know, that is why a lot of, of, of other, a financing amount of funding to maintain and to keep what all the old time has been solve for a country like buckets, dawn. and so many countries in the global, so we should have better drainage system, so you should have better storage systems. infrastructure inbox not including a lot of us, most of the dams are a colonial legacy, is still constructed in the colonial times. and, and that's a problem our storage was, was made in the colonial times of and it was still going to nice. i think we need to update that. and i think that goes to even for a country like libya, infrastructure should be the ability to it should become mean that should be green climate to prove rehabilitated infrastructure now, including roads including buildings, hospitals, and schools. everything especially on the cost to regions, especially in the just the flood prone we should be looking at other climate

solutions including how to save and including ensuring there is no can didn't. there are no dwellings on such planes, including making sure there's no construction on the slide show the on starting to um, there's no construction on riverbanks on the shoulders, which is something that focused on really paid a heavy price for last last year. the list of solutions really goes on and on, but the, but the narrative surrounding why, okay, so let me just take some of that to edmond for an engineering perspective. how much of that is, is possible advisable. i suppose. okay, if you look at the critical infrastructure we knew as engineers, but has to be doing the question is, is it being actually don't? and as you know is, is the government in a particular country driving that. we know risk assessments should be doing that all these a, these things be that whether it's a nuclear power plant or be it whether it's a damn at we know we should have resilience planning because at things cannon

wouldn't go wrong. there will be unexpected events. we need to think about the security of that, that infrastructure. is it being maintained regular late at lots to emergency response? and i think that's, that's a big one because i'm like, for example here in ireland and the way we coordinate our emergency response. we do have our defense forces involved with the engineering responses is a headed up by what we call the office of public works, which is a let's a taking the engineering capacity into account of all these things. and there are plans in place around an emergency response when that's needed and then you do have to invest to modernize. and you do have to have keep the public aware of a, of all these things you know, or that's a good point. you have to invest to more than i just want to take that point back to, to solve it in lahore and say, when you're talking about country like punk style that's, it's got its own economic challenges. the long list that you referred to of changes

that need to be made. i mean, frankly speaking country is a full that on the road. i think the 1st thing the 1st step would probably be to make sure that the time a change becomes a priority for any country and for a country constantly within the tools, the political upheaval which focused on has been i've climate change does tend to take aback bono does tend to be put on the back, but uh, but that doesn't mean that the not making efforts to combat climate change. for example, when the floods see to us in 2020 to be at about 12 does small, the smallest visible in the province are below interest on the fixed date for them . but a couple of them got developed the cracks in them. but the government did acts pretty far and that is something i wish the libyan government had also done. they've actuated a lot of people that were living there that the still good early warning systems in place. that is buttons, especially parking lot affected areas. and for those,

um and then also the connection between dams and dmitri logical department is very important. if that is them, data management is not intimidated about the upcoming stones. about you know, what the weather is looking like, whether they're going to be experiencing, reinstalled, and the dam management really gone to lodge. i don't know how the libyan of what was happening in libya. i don't these lines. well the but how, but if we may, let's take the question to west suite and then and once again to us my listening to what solid and edmond the saying that you go to thing that this requires a considerable investment on any of money, but also of learning and know how do countries which are challenge not any physical stability but economic challenge as well. really need international help. well, maybe as no economically challenged. um it's, it's still quite a wealthy given given it's, it's or a resource, but it's,

it's mismatch. it's are grossly mismanaged and actually not governed. despite the del told these are that we have to governments that governing very small areas, effectively it's, it falls to local governments and then we have their issues that, that both mikalyn political in terms of not getting them. you know, pop up budgets, etc. so it's, there is no interest in the leadership both in the east and the west to actually go from the country. and so none of these things went in place. even though there are huge budgets for administrative whole to there's huge budgets for infrastructure projects and contracted companies from all over the world coming to it to work in the country. but it's not, it's, it's been like that's as bad even during get that fees is era that there's all these approaches projects, but it's very little done on the ground. and so it took them 3 days to get to get themselves to actually be able to respond to coordinate with each other,

which is quite state for people who are still traveling. and then i'm stuck under russell and waiting to be rescued. it, there's this, they have just manage now to really set us an official statement and a response on an emergency committee. and of course, the parliament has met uh full days of data to give themselves $10000000000.00 budget to rebuild a city. a lead by a mind, the spokesman for the parliament who was given a budget before to rebuild the big gauzy and the off to isis, which they have not seen boots. so a very complex situation, that admin can any organization entity, international organization and to be established to try and ensure them safety around the world in areas where a, the, it's playing with political instability and corruption. all they simply don't have the resources, no matter how good their administration is. they have to have the resources do a lot of the engineering knowledge is there is the 1st thing. the question is,

is there a political will in a particular part of the world? and that's are the biggest factor in my view. you know, because ultimately you will need the technical expertise there on the ground to do whatever work needs to actually get done. and you can have all the international meetings you like for the less the work actually happens on the ground at, you know, nothing's going to change with that piece of infrastructure. and i think look, it really starts off with what's our approach to climate change. and to some people, you know, if they consider it, it's not my problem are, they don't see it as, as being a real problem. and, and it's events like that that show us and that it is a real problem. so we need to talk is in 2 ways. one is about building resilience, so the more least changing and we are going to have more rain. we are going to have higher temperatures. how do we build resilience around that? and then the other areas, adaptability and this is more long term. so why are the things that we can do to lessen the impact of climate change? and you know, to prevent at, you know, right,

temperatures rising as fast because the sea levels at sea levels are rising. the rising a couple of centimeters every year. and you know, fast barbara, dash, and if you don't build flo defenses in certain areas and you know, that will be covered by the seat that's. that's a known fact. so admin does clarify your how do you use the process of updating, adapt. a look at them is very, is a very significant piece of infrastructure. and it's, you know, if you look at it from a civil engineering point of view, and it's quite a big structure and it is easy to be job talk to them. but it's not necessarily that necessarily all the damages need updating. and you know, you can look at what part of the mitigation measures a feel have excess range for how is it managed and you know, evenings the best parts of the world. and you can have aliens, they declared, there are significant ray and fall and they have 2 managers and they have to

release the water. so for example, even here, norland, in parties, a, you know, we had, we had one damage. so i thought hydro electric plant in 2009 there was very, very significant rain falls at the people who were monitoring that plant. they were in touch with the major ologist. they could see the brain was falling, they had no choice, but to release water put, it was a controlled release of water right now. there was some study and it did cause damage and there was lot of insurance problems as a result of that. and, and that has, that's how that happens around the bar leaving in germany 2 years ago that you'll see there was a, there was a similar scenario. all i will have to learn it's, i shouldn't have the passenger on that you shouldn't have the catastrophic loss of life. so we have in this way, i think we can agree and that no one's catastrophic loss of life. for now, let's think our guys, because we are out of time, us know, lisa saw the had and admin policy and thank you to 14, you can see the show again. any time by visiting our website, i'll just say or don't com for further discussion heatherly to our facebook page,

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the live pictures of the eastern libya are right now searching for the missing a week off the floods swept through the east of the country killing thousands of people, the time 0 venue, it's good to have you with us. this is elza 0 line from the also coming up. we travel with a teams to remote mountain villages and morocco where many are still waiting for

help. after last week's earthquake, that is what happened to this part of the vintage. you actually had