for the inhabitants of indonesia is remote islands. health care is home delivered by so 1st nurses and for them to use as a veteran nurse hands over the readings to adult medical crisis images underlining the paper to roll of these dedicated cares. you mean our, an island called a witness documentary on a jersey to an auto workers dispute in the us on the lines washington struggled to become competitive in this local electric, comcast of the he, you and china flash over the subsidies is the fact that the coming the new geopolitical bible base is inside story. the

hello and welcome to the show. i'm sam is a, than delivering affordable electric vehicles. has become a priority for global call make cuz huge markets like b. e, you planned to outlaw the sale of traditional engines by 2035. the move to electric is a revolution for the old motive sensor. but like all revolutions, they can be a degree of chaos and unintended consequences to well, few might have imagine 20 years ago, china would become the world's top producer of the next generation of motor vehicles in the us, automotive work, as are on strike hotly for fear of big jump losses and pay costs in making a these, the us has to become more competitive to grab a bigger electric vehicle market share among the supporters, the us president to says the move to the light fixture, not main less pay. use re,

standards across the workplace as an entire industries pushing up wages and strength of the benefits for everyone. that's why strong units are critical, the growing economy and growing it from the middle out, bottom up, not the top down. that's especially true as we transition to a clean energy future which are in the process of doing. i believe that transition should be fair and a win win. excuse me. however, auto workers and auto companies. but you is worried about the threat to its call may cause from cheaper impulse from china. it says it's chinese rivals have an unfair advantage from states subsidies. european official site this distorts the market. they've launched a major inquiry that the commission is launching an empty subsidy investigation into electric vehicles coming from china. europe is open to competition, but not for race to the bottom. we must defend ourselves against unfair practices.

and some european analysts believe the move is intended to give the use also industry time to catch up with chinese rivals. by doing is condemning the decision saying the inquiry is simply protection isn't i tell you what comes from dollars. what i want to emphasize is that the investigation major, that the you opinion implants to take this to protect its own industry in the name of fair competition. this is plates and protectionists behavior that will seriously disrupt and distort the global automotive industrial chain of supply chain, including the european union. it will have a negative impact on the china, you economy and traits relations. change. china is by far the biggest producer of electric vehicles. global sales have tripled in the past 3 years from 93000000 in 2020 to 10000000 last year. a total of 14 percent of all

new calls sold were electric. that's up from 9 percent in 2021. 05 percent in 2020. that means every 20 new calls sold last year. 3. well electric and china is declared front runner once again with nearly 2 thirds of all global sales in europe. 21 percent of calls sold last year where electric the us. it was just 8 percent. although most of china is electric vehicles stay on chinese roads. badging accounted scenario. 3rd of all global exports. the a light springing, i guess we have joining us from brussels. steven orlando, the chief diplomatic correspondence in europe for the new york times. and by doing, and the mach senior research fellow at the center for china, globalization, and induced germany for non duty hoffa professor,

i'm direct to the center for ulta, motive research, think tank. hello and welcome to, oh, if i could start with steven in brussels, the back of what's going on in the us right now between ultimate cousin all to work is, will it impact how competitive the us becomes in the global ag market? and it's down to who i mean, part of lots of the union of auto workers is trying to do is to protect jobs. a lot of the electrical vehicle work done in the united states is being done from plants that are non traditional but are also non unionized. and this is what striving the union is crazy. it is also true that electric cars require fire if she were moving parts, so they will require far fewer auto workers. so part of what you have going on is an effort for the me is to preserve themselves,

but also to preserve their jobs in a very quickly changing text about technological marketplace. and this thing i'd states has done to be competitive in electrical cars. it's going to have to cut its costs. now we can get into the subsidy question later, but i, i, i think it's quite clear that cost is going to really matter. because if everyone's going to have to buy an electric car, there's going to have to be all kinds of new shows, not just the expensive cars. that's quite a lot of american and european electric card manufacturers seem to favor. i live the fact that you've put your finger on costs for a steve, and let me take that point to andy and badging can the us catch up. however, this is result of this strike going on in the us kinda catch up when frankly, labor costs and production costs in china. many would say thanks to state subsidies a lot cheaper. you know,

i think that exactly is the existential challenge. facing the us auto industry because it's not just the transition to eaves with its fewer parts. therefore requiring fewer workers. there's another very important technological change on the horizon to and that is the integration of a i and robots which will further reduce the need for human labor. and sammy, you're exactly right that china has a cost advantage, but we also have to recognize that it used to be made in china. but increasingly, especially with a bees, it's designed in china as well. so try and use electric vehicles. they're not only cost effective, but they're increasingly seen is some of the best design and some of the best spot out in terms of understanding consumer preferences. and steven mentioned nature's

admissions. and this is exactly what some of these trainings companies have shown, a remarkable sophistication. so i think it's going to be very, very challenging for the us, automotive industry investing point that further 9 not only made in china designed in china and the says, how did china get ahead of everyone else? especially the traditional german comic is when it comes to the market or this is not just china. taylor mosque, us some kind of examples. we're sending it to china. we have a few minutes ago that the cost position and i think like way goes, it says i really size it thing and they are being sent to try and he's not us call make us a lack of this, the cost effectiveness. so if you look at it in detail cost,

only $2.00 scales and some chinese for time are be want to be very successful. because themselves was told by 5000000 electric very goods this year just long company. the same applies to the most contest. so it would sell about $1.00 cost just electric waves. so they both have this caves and if you got this k is, then you have the cost advantages. the 2nd thing is, the better we, if you look at the battery is about 40 foot and we're up to 40 percent of the cost of the electric bank goes and try, you know, no, it's a bit better. we. china has a lot of experience in the 20, in the last 20 years. i build up is february the whole on sundays, but our industry. so they have natural competitive advantages and they're, what they did is the same. what uh, you know,

most skipped is go as fast as possible in this case, and the rest of the pictures to sell about 5 to 10 or 15 percent of its volume as electric vehicles. so they move this case to be, you know, become competitive. it makes no sense to go and do it to the, to the table or something like that. i'm only certain man because when you talk about scales, couldn't see it radically. the us has a big market. it could have taken advantage of scalar production, right? yes, yeah, absolutely. you know, must be so using this case however, it just started a few months ago when the, and the information that from the job i was put in place then that add to the buyers of electric, ready to get good get subsidies. and if you give the people to subsidies, then they can afford the electric back to because electric records at the bowman.

hi john, still a higher price and have a higher price to compare with the combustion engine answer. so the question is, you putting your walk into the position that this k is r and the scales, all the people buy the cause and the china is due to the fact that the government you got to be, i guess each call make up sense of all time, state or subsidies. if customers are buying, it's costly. so next we base. all right. i think we call the void the issue of subsidies. now it's come up with 2 of i guess let me bring and the and then put the question this way. there may be a number of reasons why china was doing so while in the electrical vehicle market, but is also part of it subsidies, defensive, a strategic and international studies says chinese government has invested at least 60000000000 us dollars to support the industry to well, sammy, that was the back the,

the point i wanted to address is why hasn't the us been more competitive? and part of there's 2 reasons for your anger here in automakers as well. what i think is often called the innovators dilemma in that when you have the big 3 automakers as the industry incumbents, as well as a german car company, sort of making a lot of money, selling, internal combustion engine automobiles. it's incredibly difficult to cannibalize your existing businesses for this new type of technology. and we see in china, of course, that the leaders like b, y, d, like neo, we're not legacy automakers tests. what was not either. so i think it's not surprising from this perspective. now let me look at the role of government. this is the other very, very important factor here. can that electric vehicles are not just stands alone products are actually

a new technology eco system because you need charging stations. you know, there's other things that need to be developed or d and batteries and what china is very good at is a setting long term goals. and marshalling the resources, including financial resources, legislation, etc, at every level of government, from the national level, to the provincial level, to the municipal level, even down to the neighborhood level. so the last few years, there are charging stations everywhere in china. and think about this. if you have the best cheapest electric vehicle in the world, but you have nowhere in charge it, it's not very useful. so this is very important. the role of government, this is where i think certainly the us with its structure of government makes it difficult. if not impossible, to manage these

a generic spot in technology and ecosystem. okay, that's a good point. let's take it back to steve and then ken one, blaine, china. if china has planned, it's a the market in advance of everyone given support in advance of everyone. while in some countries, the petro related industries are being cold and that, and the internal combustion engine, interest, lobby's kept the transition back. a. yeah, i mean, i don't think we're talking about blame. we're just talking about how it's evolved . i think the chinese should get quite a lot of credit and also one should understand china has a big uh, sustainability, climate problem. and so putting electric cars in the hands of chinese consumers as fast as possible, particularly since many of them didn't have cars before. makes a great deal of sense. so all full credit to china. and of

course, the subsidies as they're not work both ways because western countries are subsidizing consumers for buying electric cars anyway. so it's not the same kind of subsidy in a way a subsidies to industry are probably more efficient if you're trying to build up industry. but there are obviously subsidies on, on both sides. my, my guess is that given the size of, of the united states market, it will managed to catch up partly because it's taking climate more and more seriously. but as one of your guests said, when by an impasse, the inflation reduction act, suddenly you had the feeling about the government was really behind this transition . your fans complained about it, obviously because they thought it was trying to seduce their own in just

industrial champions. but the fact of the matter is it is a very important bill for green energy transition. and germany itself has a big problem. stephen, how, how will us catch up tomorrow? how will it catch up as well? it's going to get into the money is going to work. i mean, it's a market and it's a market that will be increasingly for us to go electric. so when that happens, market forces actually do work. it might be, we'll see. i mean, maybe i'm wrong, but it's not about catching up on or, or not catching up. it's a matter of building an industry that as, as your colleagues in, i'm do inspired said bills to scale and makes things affordable for the good of everyone. talking of on call you can do is, but let's go with a foot. and then so friday is a global trade baffle looming,

at least between the you and china, over this issue of subsidies. it seems to be because a little up on the line, the president of the you commission claim to that she's going into a study to look off subsidies to which on fair, which of the chinese government do for it send us a she gives probably no growth just came up with a statement. we have think about unfair competition methods, but not a rule. nobody can understand such a system, such of such a statement. why is it isn't become a, this proves up. so i, my feeling is the, if you look at europe, you have the french people enter behalf of my call, which is president of roger, my hobos respond to that. was it off on the vent,

become a, became a you, president of the french automotive industry is a very, very weak in china. they have in front of it, no sales, they are not less about. so for friends, there is no risk if a be in europe installed a trade, belize and terrorist against the chinese, they can lose anything they can just do in due to the fact that they can sell. it's more priced higher prize when it goes to the germans. with those rights 30 because volkswagen manufacturers, the biggest uh have you been kind of like the manufacturers a these electric vehicles in china? right. so is the real unity funding within the u. of even this question of a trade bank level and some of the drama comedies, because even being w related, they sell about 30 to 40 percent off. it's about

a divide change in china. so the big risk getting going to going into trade to box as so that is the strange thing. it's a bit our secretary off a minute of the eco nomics. mr. how big toes the population. i think it's a good thing that to the you commission to do an analysis, nobody understands that because it's a big risk for the terms of whether to kind a street and to be honest, as you can be better if you make a barrier. so you would be better if you come up down a bit more competition and go up and scales and not, and trade barriers. so we, in europe, face a big problem and it could be the euro is going into a trade war, pigs, china, this couldn't be the next steps, like donald trump, they do some years ago. and they do show that perspective is

a trade war really possible given how integrated the call the come market is. i mean both the biggest, the biggest manufacturers in europe for a, the vehicles and in the us, they manufacturer and china to try barriers will be very bad business for them as well. i think in any rational basis we can say that yes, the trade war would be a very bad thing and yet they still do happen. but i also want to point out here that we have to also consider different constituencies. so um, if climate change is as dire a threat, as many governments, many people, many multi level organizations like the united nations, believes but by slowing down the adoption of eaves, in fact, uh, europe and the united states are really undermining of global welfare. and

stevens point, i think the best thing for the united states would be to what, how training this gives into the market. that would be best for american consumers . they would have the inexpensive, save up and well designed electric vehicles that are good for the planet. now of course, this would probably not be so good for some of the incumbents, american automakers. but again, politics is all about prioritizing. and if indeed, a climate change is such a big spread shipments, governments around the world be doing what they can to achieve carbon neutrality and other goals that make it more sustainable planned as possible the most sustained a little planet, of course, runs up against the issue of human beings being selfish, and they always once be each nation that the head of that though they let spring

and stephen wants to get into the us. because as also a question of politics, right. i mean, joe biden is running for reelection. if he wants to be re elected, he needs the votes as the one last time of american working class men and women. and they are represented by unions. awesome. and by the, you date the u a w. so bible is trying with laws live b r a to promote reading practices. but he also finds politics means, you know, he considers himself, he portrays themselves as the defender of america, goes middle class as a foreign policy for the middle class. he's a big union guy, so naturally he's going to support the u a w. i'm not sure we need to get into a trade or what i have the sense what the use really trying to do is buy time for

its own domestic industries to try to catch up, to reduce their dependency on china, and not so much for finished cars. but for batteries, i mean china, you know, if you believe some figures produces 75 percent of all the world car batteries, so in europe in industry was slow to get started. i think the german car industry was great at making last century is carlos. it's been slow at learning how to make good electrical cars, digital cars, a i carnes, and it needs to try to catch up. and i think that's what the use trying to to do, which will require, i think, a little bit of protectionism. i think that words best thought you read my mind again, steven, cuz i'm glad you. you mentioned batteries that can the us and europe. really kat

shop on batteries, particularly europe fuddy. uh, we know the largest manufacturer in your building 6 gig of factories across europe and i think one in china to try and create its own supply chain. is it too late? and now it's not too late. it's the same. what to be, why the debt and the china, so we don't you doing that with this subsidy, gary, which is called paul coe about to see that it makes no sense to go in conflict in contrast with each other in terms of the c a t o which is that all just better, we make the tiniest, but every make a has a built up applied to the a viable and then the use of sales and support the shuttle kind of see. so it would be very interesting to go in corporations. you corporations, with chinese companies and corporations to 0, being under the u. s. companies to fall to form a new area and which just really richard cost effective, busy the battery

a seem to be interesting to read w $4.00 and $7.00 has a link to to boston, which is a chinese company doing batteries. so they're brought together. why shouldn't be love to give up just in case of not to go in and do for the confrontations they own the child is, but every visit us but or even need to your we need a battery in the, the times of crime. it says the counselor opinion, because at times of contents we saw with the mike richard whole supply chain incidents. sometimes countries do prioritize the national production of others that may take about points since i think we go on a minute and the, i mean, we're hearing sensible sentiment from fuzzy but is it, is it likely as well that's the challenge and the

opportunity. so certainly like with somebody from doctor's that countries a c as a, a, a national security issue, at least in part. so if we look at batteries as well, they have both. so as long as they to be able insure the same way and they because they're the most important component definitely in the production, i'll give you the and in other parts of all electric future. absolutely. so again, i think this makes this very challenging to resolve that. it's both a challenge and an opportunity that on the one hand consumers of course, lots of good products, a reasonable price is a certain product, certain inputs, like so. my conductors, i think like bad, or he's also have national security implications as well. so i think each country has to decide how to balance that. and it's a very difficult balance as we're seeing. all right, let me uh,

bring in steve and then uh all we're going to see perhaps regions try and focus on different segments of the market. us manufacturers try and capture maybe the s u, v and truck market square. as you are focused on the range of luxury brands, it has and so on. that would be logical. i mean, that seems to be where, where we're actually going. but i mean, it is a technological revolution. there's a lot of chaos things we'll have to shake out. there's an awful lot of competition tests. let's feeling it now too. so it's, it's very hard to predict. i think rationality in this market is to be hoped for, but not to be expected. okay, that's an interesting line i think to end the show on let's try and call and guess for all the contributions stephen lanka and the mock and for the non duty hoffer

and thank you to falter. you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website, l g 0. don't com for further discussion head over to on facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story and also join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter handle. there is that a inside story from be signed me say that on the whole team. if an out is kubat the the basically entities, the un fits the purpose was like many critics sites just obsolete and doesn't get

anywhere near enough done to the amount of money that is put into it's hard hitting interviews. you think close to the lines of washing it's enough for money to go on its own and built it's on thought providing on for centuries, people have been taken care of are. so i have every confidence that future generations will do it as well via the story on told to how does era the story of love, patience, and pay. what forces me to live in the account is my love for him to 0. who old fellows this trouble over a couple trying to get there and said helpful. public opinion can, can be for the next 2 months should meet and go out or do anything just say shut t let com, the price of love. oh no, just 0 for us. a call with of inside the world. this has been going on for

a number of our seniors, how to do the report stories going into a national perspective to try to explain to a local audience how this could impact the like. this is an important part of the world and how to do this very good. the bringing the news to the world from here, the, the wrong confirms of prisoners swap, involving and raining, and us prisoners is going ahead and send me say that and this is, i'll just say we're alive from the hall. so coming up as a self in the hague, russia objects to the un calls jurisdiction and the genocide case built by ukraine . the grand task of identifying victims of fun.