a nation riddled with land mines and an expert dedicated to defusing them, one by one. equipped with only a 9th and the pair of wire touched. the faces death every day. but does is worth making a hero or a talk. witness. the minor on a jersey to sick activists have been operating for years outside india. now one has been killed in canada, 5 minutes or just centreville accuses new delhi of triggering tension between the 2 countries. so can it be contained and what does this tell us about the flight of religious minorities in india? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoy them. the killing of a sick activist in british columbia has opened up a diplomatic rift between india and canada. canadian prime minister just introduced as india may have been involved, a charge, new delhi is calling absurd, both sides of expelled each other's diplomats and cooperation on trade and defense could be in jeopardy. we'll go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st sent him on him as this report seats in canada or cooling for justice. that's after want their community leaders was killed by gunmen and june. make use the indian government but being involved. now, canadian prime minister justin to do appears to have confirmed so their suspicions over the past number of weeks, canadian security agencies have been actively pursuing credible allegations of a potential link between agents. so the government of india and the killing of a canadian citizen. hard to sings new josh. canada has already spelled and indian

diplomats assigned to police. the allegations are credible but in india protestors pub denounced are due to the government, denied any involvement expelled the canadian diplomat inter tally ation. relations already strained at the $27.00 in new delhi over a week ago, prime minister and are under moody accused canada of harbouring and encouraging seek separatists to doe said canada would always defend freedom of expression. the bodies international government has frequently been criticized for the treatment of religious minorities. the us state department recently called on canada to dress growing instance of discrimination. i'm targeted attacks the killing of pardeep, seeing the jar as quotes of diplomatic rips that may prove difficult to bridge and threaten 0 cooperation between the countries on trade and defense. vince and mullin for inside story. the joining me now are

our guests in ottawa is gary keller, vice president at strategy core, a government relations and geopolitical advisory. he is also a former chief of staff to the canadian foreign minister in birmingham is see if you would associate professor at university of birmingham. he's working on a book detailing the history of terrorism and counterterrorism in canada. and in new delhi is rama celine, professor of strategic studies at the center for policy research. he's former advisor to india is national security council. a warm welcome to you all. now we should point out, we had a spokesperson from india's ruling b, j. p. party schedule to be on the program with us, but they pulled out before recording. gary, let me start with you today. um. how extraordinary was it that this allegation was made publicly by prime minister true though. well her extraordinary. ah, the news that was broken in the house of commons on monday afternoon. the house of commons has been on a summer break for a number of months now. and, you know,

canadian saw that a large focus of the fall single problem is going to be focused on the economy. and within about 2 hours of the house of commons returning prime minister try to has to do is certainly blowing that out of the water with this this uh, this quite explosive news and providing almost no uh, heads up to the opposition parties. and it was certainly dominating the headlines and it has dominate the headlines in canada for the past 48 hours and will continue to do so as prentice recruiters at united nations general assembly. later this week . i'm sure he's going to be trying to court more support. i'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that from the amount of sta allied countries around this investigation. but obviously the, the murder of this at the subject was an canadian citizen, made news back a number of months ago when it happened. and now this is just even blown it even further into the stratosphere, in terms of what canadians are hearing and watching. gary,

let me also ask you about the fact that when you listen to the language used by prime minister to go in his statement, he's not really definitive up. he says, the canadian intelligence are investigating credible allegations. he talked about there being a potential link. i want to ask you, um, is he giving himself a little bit of wiggle room on this? you know, any, any political leader will try to give themselves wiggle room on something like this . you know, if i get a very close of allegation and you know, the, it was interesting to see the reaction of the authorization parties, especially the conservative liter, literally official opposition who immediately because 1st reaction was, you know, yes, we all have to stand together against interference and counters, activities and for an experience it's been a major topic in canada, chinese and friends, and our political elections that has been a major topic. and so this just adds fuel to the fire. but 24 hours later, the opposition leader was asking some more pointed questions. now we need to see

before we need to see the full evidence out there. why are these allegations about indian interference and indian activities may pop with when we've had months and years of allegation of chinese interests here has not become public. and so i like to say this is a dangerous inflection point for both the government and the opposition. mr. crudo has to basically back up what he has said, and if there's any wiggle room in that, that is going to be very dangerous for the government in terms of his credibility. on the same time, the organization has to be very careful that it doesn't overplay his hand. it has the right and a duty to ask difficult questions in the house of commons each and every day. but it can't be seen to be trying to make political hay over a very serious situation. like this brahman, the indian government has said that any suggestion that they played a role in the killing of hardy seeing these are, is absurd. now aside from the initial statement by the canadian prime minister, we also heard from just introduce that he has said that he's not trying to provoke

india after he made that the accusation. um, what is the reaction to those remarks? does india see this as a provocation? of any of the racket, but she already because that's the pointed out. the only question that was true was sitting in the house of commons on monday was the canadian security agencies funding evidence often gets involved within the canning august c. monitor. rather, his statement was about allegations that he called the credible allegations about 10.10. sure. in the length of the murder, why would the prime minister of a country stand up in parliament and devil allocations a case in the family country where not

a single suspect of interested in the murder. so but morris, let alone any evidence. he stands up in parliament and basically it goes the allocations of radical 6 in canada. well, front of the very 1st day of the kid they have held it responsible for the murder, crude, or whatever know that really made that statement in the house of commons. that are disordered, graphically, listen relations within their relationships within yeah. have been listening on, draws watch in recent years because prudence government has turned a blind eye to the increasing activities of radical 6 in canada. the fact that to have a political ties to canadian sick radicals,

he leaves them. i know how to think of her meant that to bend as a part of the supply room on the support of the new democratic party leader germany c. charlie saying is a seat by accident, sidney by the election. but he's also in the boss dependency attempts that have been fighting for creating a separate sink homeland auto for a. com delta india to be known as carla saw as a lie and the defend of them is also part of separated and managed in support of the contest on moments. so given the domestic politics in canada, i know that to those, not any readings have sung. he's printing deleted without possession, maybe domestic, vertical conservation. so i played a part in photos allegations. i think don't you don't to what he has done.

knowing that this would, from reading the script, you talk about the fact that india is furious by these allegations. um, from your perspective, can this growing rift? can't it actually be contained? and, and if so, what has to happen? what do you think the dollar to be done were spiral in relations? the country has picked out. it stops by and now they have been put tack, travel advisories. india, for example, today and wives engines wasn't in kind of exercise caution because of a growing 19 the activity in canada and, and then also, what are the clinton don't widens in canada? i think it's very important for kindergarten. india, to scan this downward, spiral invitations because kind of, i mean, yeah, not at groceries. these are friends. and i think that it's easy to

damage the relationship, but rebuilding it would be far more difficult. so it's really part of what to offer my a new delhi, not to ex, escalating macros. they need to think things in a more cautious animal, pragmatic way, and use back tend to diplomacy rather than airing grievances and suspicions and navigations and public. unfortunately, the bolt does include us court, you know, he, he or ed suspicions, these obligations as an intelligence impulse. we know that not a single suspect of interest and, and this is a mocker because i'm what happened more than 3 months ago. and if you don't have a single suspect in custody, you obviously don't have any evidence. and so before you open your mouth,

the public, you should, you should take all the different medic consequences on what you're gonna see. steve, let me ask you, canada has a very sizable population of 6. how does that change the dynamics of this growing rift? yeah, yeah, i mean, cabinet has the largest seat di sports community in the world. and there's a long history of seek activism. so you can stream, as um, as the canadians involved in violence. in fact, i was listening discussion thinking 20 years ago this similar discussion was taking place, including with the true no government, not of just in chicago, but it appeared too though. so you've got 6 or a as the previous guest mentioned, wrapped in the, in the liberal party, the leader of the new democratic party is our previous guest. mention is a 6, but the deputy leader of the conservative party is also to say,

so you have seats and all 3 major parties. and they play a full role in the canadian political scene. our upstanding citizens are in large communities in british columbia, in ontario. so, i mean, canada is a very, obviously a very diverse, very multicultural country, and there are dice for community, some number of places in the world as there are in the united states, as there are in the united kingdom where i am right now. steve, let me also ask you how much concern is there about the geopolitical consequences of a growing in the canada confrontation? i mean, in both the short term and the long term. and this i think, is really interesting that had as main allies seemed to be very quiet on this issue . because of course, this has come at a point where i've united states the united kingdom are trying to sort of take that away from china and build relations with india. so in some ways that, you know, government is not sort of broke singing from the same song sheet as it's allies. so

it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few weeks. because india is in a rather strong position, given the concerns about china, including in canada as as the 1st guest mention, the issue for an interference has been displayed. issue focused on china. and now is obviously emerged in relation to india. gary, i saw you are reacting to some what steve was saying that it looked like you wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. yeah. just use points, you know, and, and actually to the other, i guess, points canada has long been seen by india to have a problem on how it deals with cds stream the extremism, the tell us any question. and then in recent months, it is actually it adds in the flows and, and the issue around the house that has heated up at sea gigs 3 months have held what they call a referendum in certain communities across canada, calling for independence for a, for a callous stand

a state and we know for a fact to that, the more the government has portrayed the quietly back channel with some of those community members trying to town down. those might have been on the fence and so i think the more the government in some ways thought that it was trying to get a handle on a callous any problem in canada. but like i said, for, for 4050 years, the indian government has, has made complaints about that. um and you know, uh, the other issue that has been a huge issue in india. india attended relations is those same extremists, gurdwara rose and protest. i've seen posters calling for the assassination of indian diplomats in canada, and we've seen that security has been increased on union high commission in ottawa and consul general across canada. and so it is, it's a very serious issue that has been pulled out over the last number of months and this, this killing back you in the spring summer. again,

focused attention even back then without this was of this other noise coming into into question. so it is a, it's a live question and it's also a to steve's point is a political issue because in parts of canada, you know, with the big 3 regional vancouver, there's 4 or 5 seats which go back and forth between liberals and democrats, and conservative and it's probably, you know, 8 to 15 seats in the greater toronto. we're area that again, slip around and mr. crudo hasn't been already government. he has the support of the new democrats on this uh for his is minority government. and as a result, these are very politically important feeds because if there's, you know, 15 to 20 seats that are, have a sizable south asian or see populations that can make the difference between a majority and minority government. a lot of case itself very, very lot of issues including canadian politics as well. i think it's not. the politicians are thinking about the news 1st, but that,

that discussion is going to come later. um and, and indeed it does have a point that candidate has been seen to be weak on tell us standing activity and tell us down the street msm encounter rama it's a gary's point. uh, let me ask you, uh, india has been raising concerns about the callous on independence movement, not just with canada, but with other countries as well with are our size. we'll see populations like you can and, and australia, right. a while. exactly, and this here has been particularly bad in terms of a significant c abroad because the 1st thing in high commission, the embassy in london stone by sic radicals, the end of the compound, they put it on the indian side. they have the parts of the sink contest on flag, and then a few was made in a carpet cock attack in san francisco, and they didn't constantly sick that attends storm the consulate, and then they follow that up

a few days later with an oscillator attack. they said they said the front here, we have the consulate on fire. and then we have had a series of, of all the attacks on the, in the muddy missions or in the, i'd say not in that most of your countries to. so these 500 most of the countries are on the hub of sick literacy today because it, what's interesting call us is that back in india among 6 and 8. yeah. there's nothing on no support for the calling from them on this. i'm on. it is only only being only being expires biased, small minority of 6, maybe in canada and the us basically california or in the u. k. and australia. this is way the comments on them on this big advocate is. it's an irony because even though they're even, even among the student dias for those or getting part of separate sit

copeland only is tiny minority seeks, but the problem is that, you know, when actually are people speaker was talking about the domestic combustion. so prime minister, google, what do you have? boost compulsions, and you're given a long rope. course incremental contained in your country. you encourage? not only in yeah, companies you, you, you actually unintentionally cottage terrorism. and this is where, you know, it today. it's about in india, canada relations, a time might come when cit, looking to base to canada, county, or international acts of terrorism and all the rest and countries that we don't want that to happen. that's the reason why and this is not just about india and canada is about international security. steve, i saw you reacting to

a lot of what ronald was saying there. it looks like you wanted to jump in, so go ahead. yeah, yeah, yeah, i mean, the worst actor terrorism, a canadian history was the bombing of air india flight 182 in 1985 to 329. people killed $270.00 of whom pagan citizens on a per capita basis. that's the equivalent of a 911 for canada carried out by so you could stream this operating in canada. but i feel like in some ways your guest in india is making the case as to why india might be tempted to do exactly what they've been accused of. i mean, there was a law, i'm concerned that if canada didn't do more in a sense to crack down on the i see got categories and this again goes back decades that india might be tempted to. and there's all kinds of evidence of indian intelligence agents operating in canada, monitoring i see communities, but i think this is going off as a one step further. if these allegations are true and an escalating things beyond

which ivy or something beyond the point that the community government, and i think most canadians would find acceptable. gary, i saw you reacting as well. so i'm going to let you jump in but, but i also want to ask you when we're talking about these obligations and the seriousness of it all. i mean, is there a point with which the canadian government's going to start making any of the evidence. they say they have public well, that's a great question. and yeah, when we've been dealing with accusations of chinese interference in our political actions, the government's response to date has been too sensitive. parliamentarians can have access to that. we have to have uh, independent inquiry and even they were fighting an independent inquiry and only last summer, a governor general take a look at that information. and so the, the owners and the call even through that and now to this is that, okay, you have to be more transparent with canadians about these very serious allegations . and even cat is national security advisor testified before house of commons

committees saying our default position is the procedure. our default position is not to tell things. and if you want to see things, we have to be pushed into it. and, and i think this is only going to lead to that. i just want to also touch on the fact that in it we started out on the, on this is this really, you know, if you thought that canadian indian relations were cold before, they're in the cryogenic deep freeze for the very short and probably the medium term as well, uh, you know, the, like i said the relationship is gone hot and cold over the last 40 or 50 years. it really kind of went cold after 2015 when just intruder focused a lot this before and the policy pension on china at the expense of india. obviously that calculation changed in the wake of the, to my goals and to make one, jo, okays and, and this increasing chinese interference to those questions which i free trade deal with china. that's off the table. canada 10 months ago launch is a so called in the pacific strategy, which was to act as

a counter wait against china in both foreign policy trade and development issues. but what do you do now with an in the pacific strategy when the indo part of that strategy is basically gone and in the deep freeze, but next uh, you know, a little while here and probably for the length of this truth. oh government. you know, you need it if you need a counter wait to china, not it's not good relation is not going to work in canada. and. and then we've seen this reaction from both united states, u. k. some of our finalized partners who are going well tell you should really investigate these these, this information. and yes, you know, any telling of a canadian citizen has horrible investigate that further. they're not coming out and just jumping on the bandwagon because they understand and july and has made this a key part of his form policy strategy. a political strategy to bring india closer to the full. we had a very successful g 20 and just intruder was actually outlier at the g 20 in terms of being there and, and participating. now we know why because they,

they had some very difficult discussions. over the course of that conference drama, i want to ask you about the fact that since his election in 2014 prime minister moody has been accused of by many groups of overseeing a rising tide of conservative hindu nationalism in india. there are minority groups in the countries that have raised concerns about threats to their human rights. this issues been c members receiving wider global attention after 3 protocol is done active as died in quick succession in different countries earlier this year. what does this say about the plight of religious minorities in india are 1st, i think you have to keep in mind that in the as of right, one of the rights democracy in fact it's in some respects more otherwise the night states. and if you go back to the time when donald trump was on the white house, you remember how americans were accusing from undermining american democracy all for being a trip to american democracy of black thing and the strong man. these are the kinds

of accusations that critics of the community. so you have to keep in mind that 2nd bed it a highly autozone political environment. back in india where you are problem, whether your money can come to you from a neutral then you are, you don't, you know, your enough cost, but both sides. so one of the accusations that i think what movie is doing, i like watching from was a chew stuff or just the way american democracy so wide from the crumbs from the presidency. they need democracy is realistic or not. does that live? mostly? that's nothing in the doesn't not the income. so changes in law that affect the minorities. so why don't we keep that in mind, but i'm coming back to the larger issue that don't think you're discussing. the

fact is that much before money, even into politics india, and had concerns about the operations ended richard terrace from last year, countries and those concerns go back to the 19 duties by the end. and the problem was the murder in bombing, i'm in preference. and as i pretty much just mention in bomb explosion, donald anatomy in depth light from colorado clinical panic. but 9 people, all the fact of eating disciplines abroad is one quarter to the machine still. and you have never been accused of digging down anyone else on listening. so for example, they are more than $100.00 human designated service based and focused on that. i wanted them in there and in the service, even though some of them i want in an india fall, or pick

a task such as the 2008 by a massacre. somebody by comparison, this ship radical who was gotten down in canada. it is, it is another figure in india, he's supposed to be not only in this most wanted terrorist, so you have to ask me. that is why, why would there been down the summer of skills, bigger and kind of uh, even though his appreciative from the law. he, he, he, he got it on some acts of terrorism in india. and he entered the canada illegally, illegally. i cried for us to to become a citizen twice us uh, promotions for refugee status or what what, what rejected by my go ahead. i'm so i'm sorry to interrupt you, but we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much to all our guests, gary keller, steve hewitt, and from actually and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any

time by visiting our website. i'll just you or dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also during the conversation on x r handle is at a j inside store for me and how much i'm doing and a whole team here by the, the, the

sense of belonging. we are very close knit community. everybody knows everybody and the every day here, keeping communities together. this is the same sort of universe set of my universe, a jersey to visit scotlands out her head boards. and meets those fighting to say that by this way of life in the face of its population, a sense of community on a jersey to see us quite zone extends much deep into the mountains. and we've watched a search and rescue efforts to get on the way despite the risk, we're seeing residents returning to their homes in search of their belonging destruction here completely destroyed seats. minarette and cox here just goes to show again, the challenge of bringing heavy equipment into these areas. the army is deployed.

it's how the company has to be at this sense of the way it's a race assigned to flying people to trucks. under the rubble of the i don't wanna, there's a problem. and doha, with the top stories on alta 0, azerbaijan, as president says, his country has regained control of the break away region of the go know caught a box of to as the comedian. first, disagree to lay down the odds and to spend a ceasefire has been agreed between the 2 sides, off to more than 24 hours of intense slicing. they've agreed to meet on thursday of the reintegration of the region into us or by sean. saw the conference, mohammad been so long as.