and so the longer we are very close knit community, everybody knows everybody and the every day here, keeping communities together. this is the same sort of universe set of my universe jersey to visit scotland house or headboards. and meets those fighting to say that 5 in this way of life in the face of its population, a sense of community on a jersey to the sick activists have been operating for years outside india. now, one has been killed in canada, 5 minutes or just centreville accuses new daily, of triggering tension between the 2 countries. so can it be contained? and what does this tell us about the flight of religious minorities in india? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoy them. the killing of a sick activist in british columbia has opened up a diplomatic rift between india and canada. canadian prime minister just introduced as india may have been involved, a charge, new delhi is calling absurd, both sides of expelled each other's diplomats and cooperation on trade and defense could be in jeopardy. we'll go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st sent him on him as this report seats in canada or cooling for justice. that's after want their community leaders was killed by gunmen and june. they accused the indian government but being involved. now, canadian prime minister just introduce appears to have confirmed so their suspicions over the past number of weeks, canadian security agencies have been actively pursuing credible allegations of a potential link between agents. so the government of india and the killing of a canadian citizen. hard to sing,

nature canada has already expelled and indeed diplomat assignment believes the allegations are credible. but in india protest, there's pub denounced, are due to the government, it denied any involvement. expelled the canadian diplomat inter tally ation. relations already strained at the d $27.00 and you deli, over a week ago, prime minister and are under moody, accused canada of harbouring and encouraging seek separatists to those that kind of that would always defend freedom of expression. the bodies international government has frequently been criticized for its treatment of religious minorities. the us state department recently called on canada to dress growing instance of discrimination. i'm targeted attacks the killing of pardeep, seeing the jar as quotes of diplomatic rips that may prove difficult to bridge and threaten 0 cooperation between the countries on trade and defense. vince and mullin for inside story. the joining me now are

our guests in ottawa is gary keller, vice president at strategy core, a government relations and geopolitical advisory. he is also a former chief of staff to the canadian foreign minister in birmingham is the, if you would associate professor at university of birmingham, he's working on a book detailing the history of terrorism and counterterrorism in canada. and in new delhi is rama celine, professor of strategic studies at the center for policy research. he's former advisor to india is national security council. a warm welcome to you all. now we should point out, we had a spokesperson from india's ruling b, j. p. party schedule to be on the program with us, but they pulled out before recording. gary, let me start with you today. i'm how extraordinary weather that this allegation was made publicly by prime minister. true though. well her extraordinary. ah, the news that was broken in the house of commons on monday afternoon. the house of commons has been on a summer break for a number of months now. and, you know,

canadian saw that a large focus of the fall single problem is going to be focused on the economy. and within about 2 hours of the house of commons returning prime minister try to has to do is certainly blown that out of the water with this this uh, this quite explosive news. uh and providing almost no uh, heads up to the opposition parties. and it was certainly dominating the headlines and it has dominate the headlines in canada for the past 48 hours and will continue to do so as run this through to is at united nations general assembly. later this week. i'm sure he's going to be trying to court more support. i'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that from the amount of sta allied countries around this investigation. but obviously the, the murder of this at the subject was an canadian citizen, made news back a number of months ago when it happened. and now this is just even blown it even further into the stratosphere, in terms of what canadians are hearing and watching. gary,

let me also ask you about the fact that when you listen to the language used by prime minister to go in his statement, he's not really definitive up. he says, the canadian intelligence are investigating credible allegations. he talked about there being a potential link. i want to ask you, um, is he giving himself a little bit of wiggle room on this? you know, any, any political leader will try to give themselves wiggle room on something like this . you know, if i get a very close of allegation and you know, the, it was interesting to see the reaction of the authorization parties, especially the conservative liter, literally official opposition who immediately because 1st reaction was, you know, yes, we all have to stand together against interference and counter is activities and for the experience it's been a major topic in canada, chinese and friends, and our political elections. that has been a major topic. and so this just adds fuel to the fire. but 24 hours later, the opposition leader was asking some more pointed questions. now we need to see

before we need to see the full evidence out there. why are these allegations about indian interference and indian activities may pop with when we've had months and years of allegation of chinese interests here has not become public. and so i like to say this is a dangerous inflection point for both the government and the opposition. mr. crudo has to basically back up what he has said, and if there's any wiggle room in that, that is going to be very dangerous for the government in terms of his credibility. on the same time, the organization has to be very careful that it doesn't overplay his hand. it has the right and a duty to ask difficult questions in the house of commons each and every day. but it can't be seen to be trying to make political hay over a very serious situation. like this brahman, the indian government has said that any suggestion that they played a role in the killing of hardy saying these are, is absurd. now aside from the initial statement by the canadian prime minister, we also heard from just introduce that he has said that he's not trying to provoke

india after he made that the accusation. um, what is the reaction to those remarks? does india see this as a provocation? of any of the racket, but she already because that's the pointed out. um, the only question that was true was sitting in the house of commons on monday was the canadian security agencies finding evidence often gets involved within the canning august c monitor. rather, his statement was about allegations that he called the credible allegations about 10.10. sure. in the length of the murder, why would the prime minister of a country stand up in parliament and devil allocations a case in the family country where not

a single suspect of interested in the murder show, but morris, let alone any evidence. he stands up in parliament and basically it goes the allocations of a radical 6 in canada. well, from the very 1st day of the kelly hill, responsible for the murder, crude, or whatever know that really made that statement in the house of commons. that this would rapidly listen relations within their relationships. within the i had been listening on draws watch in recent years because prudence government has turned a blind eye to the increasing activities of radical 6 in canada. the fact has been to have a political ties to canadian sick radicals. the leaves of minority government

that depends a part of the supply room on the support of the new democratic party leader. jeremy c need saying is a seat by accident sitting by the election. but he's also in the boss dependency attempts that have been fighting for creating a separate seeing homeland auto for a com delta india to be known as caught as far as a lie. and the defend of them is also part of separated and managed in support of the contest on moment. so given the domestic politics in canada, i know that to those, not any readings i've sung, he's printing deleted without possession, maybe domestic, vertical conservation. so i played a part in photos allegations, i think don't you don't to what he has done,

knowing that this would from reading the script, you talk about the fact that india is furious by these allegations. um, from your perspective, can this growing rift? can't it actually be contained and, and if so, what has to happen? what do you think the dollar to be done would spiral in relations? the country has picked out, it stops fine. and now they have been put tack, travel advisories, and just like somebody today and wives indians wasn't in kind of exercise caution because of a growing 19 the activity in canada and, and also what are the clinton don't widens in canada? i think it's very important for kindergarten, india to scan this downward, spiral invitations because kind of, i mean, yeah, not at groceries. these are friends. and i think that it's easy to

damage the relationship, but rebuilding it would be far more difficult funds ready to go to a new delhi not to ex escalate macros. they need to think things in a more cautious animal. pragmatic way and use back tend to diplomacy rather than airing grievances and suspicions and navigations and public. unfortunately, the bolt does include us court, you know, he, he or ed suspicions, these allegations as an intelligence impulse. we know that and not a single suspect of interested, and this is a mock up because the murder that happened more than 3 months ago. and if you don't have a single suspect in custody, you obviously don't have any evidence. and so before you open your mouth abruptly,

you should, you should take off the diplomatic consequences on what to see. steve, let me ask you canada, it has a very sizable population of 6. how does that change the dynamics of this growing rest? yeah, yeah. i mean, cabinet has the largest seat di sports community in the world, and there's a long history of seek activism. so you can stream as um, as the canadians involved in violence. in fact, i was listening discussion thinking 20 years ago this similar discussion was taking place, including with the true no government, not of just in chicago, but it appeared too though. so you've got 6 or a as the previous guest mentioned, wrapped in the, in the liberal party, the leader of the new democratic party is our previous guest. mention is a 6, but the deputy leader of the conservative party is also to say,

so you have seats and all 3 major parties. and they play a full role in the canadian political scene. our upstanding citizens are in large communities in british columbia, in ontario. so, i mean, canada is a very, obviously, very diverse, very multi cultural country, and there are dice for community, some number of places in the world as there are in the united states, as there are in the united kingdom where i am right now. steve, let me also ask you how much concern is there about the geopolitical consequences of a growing in the canada confrontation? i mean, in both the short term and the long term. and this i think, is really interesting that had as main allies seemed to be very quiet on this issue . because of course, this has come at a point where i've united states the united kingdom are trying to sort of take that away from china and build relations with india. so in some ways that, you know, government is not sort of broke singing from the same song sheet as it's allies. so

it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few weeks. because india is in a rather strong position given that concerns about china, including in canada as as the 1st guest mention the issue for an interference has been displayed, issue focused on china. and now is obviously emerged in relation to india. gary, i saw you are reacting to some what steve was saying that it looked like you wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. yeah. just use points, you know, and, and actually to the other, i guess, points canada has long been seen by india to have a problem on how it deals with cds stream the extremism. because so any question, and then in recent months it is actually it adds in the flows and, and the issue around the house that has heated up at sea gigs 3 months have held what they call a referendum against certain communities across canada, calling for independence for a for a callous stand, a state,

and we know for a fact to that, the more the government has port tried to go quietly back channel with some of those community members trying to town down. those might have been on the fence and so i think the more the government in some ways thought that it was trying to get a handle on the house any problem in canada. but like i said, for 4050 years, the indian government has, has made complaints about that. um and you know, uh, the other issue that has been a huge issue in india. india attended relations is those same extremists, gurdwara rose and protest. i've seen posters calling for the assassination of indian diplomats in canada, and we've seen that security has been increased on union high commission in ottawa and consul general across canada. and so it is, it's a very serious issue that has been pulled out over the last number of months and this, this killing back you in the spring summer. again,

focused attention even back then without this was of this other noise coming into into question. so it is a, it's a live question, and it's also a to steve's point is a political issue because in parts of canada, you know, with the 3 regional vancouver, there's 4 or 5 seats which go back and forth between liberals and democrats and conservatives. and it's probably, you know, $8.00 to $15.00 seats in the greater toronto, we're area that again, slip around and mr. crudo hasn't been already government. he has the support of the new democrats on this for his is minority government. and as a result, these are very politically important feeds because if there's, you know, 15 to 20 seats that are, have a sizable south asian or see populations that can make the difference between a majority and minority government. a lot of case itself very, very lot of issues including canadian politics as well. i think not the politicians

are thinking about the news 1st, but that, that discussion is going to come later. um and, and indeed it does have a point that candidate has been seen to be weak on tell us standing activity and tell us down the street msm encounter rama it's a gary's point. uh, let me ask you, uh, india has been raising concerns about the callous on independence movement, not just with canada, but with other countries as well with are our size. we'll see populations like you can and, and australia, right. a while. exactly, and this year has been particularly bad in terms of uh, seeing what i can see abroad. because uh, the 1st thing in high commission, the embassy in london stone by sic radicals, the end of the compound. they put it on the engine side. they have the parts of the sink contest on flag, and then a few was made in a carpet car attack in san francisco, and they didn't constantly sick that attends storm the consulate, and then they follow that up

a few days later with an oscillator attack. they said they said the front here, we have the consummate on fire. and then we have had a series of, of all the attacks on the, in the muddy missions or in the, i'd say not in that most of your countries to. so these 500 most of the countries are on the hub of sick literacy today because it, what's interesting call us is that back in india among 6 and 8. yeah. there's nothing on no support for the calling from them on this. i'm on that is only only being only being expires by a small minority of 6 maybe in canada. and the us been simply kind of 40 or in the u. k. and australia. this is the way the callers found them on this big educated. it's an irony because even they're even, even among the city dyers for

a those or getting part of separate sit copeland only is tiny minority. 6 of the problem is that, you know, when actually are people speaker was talking about the domestic combustion. so prime minister, google, what do you have, boost compunctions, and you're given a long rope. course incremental contained in your country. you encourage? not only in, yeah, companies you, you, you actually unintentionally in cottage terrorism. and this is where, you know, it today. it's about in india, canada relations, a time might come when cit, based in canada, guy, our international acts of terrorism, in all the rest and countries that we don't want that to happen. that's the reason why, and this is not just about india and canada is about international security. steve,

i saw you reacting to a lot of what romilly saying there it looks like you wanted to jump in, so go ahead. yeah, yeah, yeah, i mean, the worst actor terrorism a canadian history was the bombing of area india flight 182 in 1985 to 329. people killed $270.00 of whom? canadian citizens on a per capita basis. that's the equivalent of a 911 for canada carried out by sikh, extreme as operating in canada. but i feel like in some ways your guest in india is making the case as to why india might be tempted to do exactly what they've been accused of. i mean, there was a law, i'm concerned that if canada didn't do more in a sense to crack down on the i see got to it isn't this again goes back decades that india might be tempted to. and there's all kinds of evidence of india and intelligence agents operating and canada monitoring. i see communities, but i think this is going august the 1 step further. if these allegations are true and an escalating things beyond which ivy or something beyond the point that the

gaining government, and i think most canadians would find acceptable. gary, i saw you reacting as well. so i'm going to let you jump in, but i also want to ask you when we're talking about these obligations and the seriousness of it all. i mean, is there a point with which the canadian government is gonna start making any of the evidence? they say they have public well, that's a great question. and yeah, when we've been dealing with accusations of chinese interference in our political actions, the government's response to date has been too sensitive. parliamentarians can't have access to that. we have to have uh, independent inquiry and even they were fighting an independent inquiry and only last summer, a governor general take a look at that information. uh and so the owners and the call even through that and now to this is that okay, you have to be more transparent with canadians about these very serious allegations and even 10 is national security advisor testified before house of commons

committees think our default position is secrecy, our default position is not to tell things and if you want to see things, we have to be pushed into it and, and i think this is only going to lead to that. i just want to also touch on the fact that it, we started out with on this is this really, you know, if you thought that canadian indian relations were cold before, they're in the cryogenic deep freeze for the very short and probably the medium term as well. uh, you know, the, like i said, the relationship is gone hot and cold over the last 40 or 50 years. it really kind of went cold after 2015 when just intruder focused a lot. this the foreign policy tensional in china at the expense of india. obviously that calculation changed in the wake of the, to my goals. and i may want showcase and, and this increasing chinese interference to that was the question which i free trade deal with china. that's off the table. canada 10 months ago launch is a so called in the pacific strategy, which was to act as

a counterweight against china in both foreign policy trade and development issues. but what do you do now with an in the pacific strategy when the indo part of that strategy is basically gone and in the deep phrase, but next uh, you know, little while here in products for the length of this truth. oh government. you know, you need it if your need account or wait to try it out and it's not good relation is not going to work in canada. and, and then we've seen this reaction from both the united states, u k. some of our 5 biased partners who are going well tell you should really investigate these, these, this information. and yes, you know, any killing of a canadian citizen, his horrible investigate that further. they're not coming out and just jumping on the bandwagon because they understand and, and joe biden has made this a key part of his form policy strategy, a political strategy to bring india closer to the full. we had a very successful g 20 and just intruded. it was actually outlier at the g 20 in terms of being there and, and participating. now we know why because they,

they had some very difficult discussions over the course of that conference. but i'm, i want to ask you about the fact that since his election in 2014 parameters remote, he has been accused of by many groups of overseeing a rising tide of conservative him do nationalism in india. there are minority groups in the country that have raised concerns about threats to their human rights . this issues been c members receiving wider global attention after 3 pro carlos on active as died in quick succession in different countries earlier this year. what does this say about the plight of religious minorities in india? are 1st, i think you have to keep in mind that india is, i mean, one of the rights democracy. in fact, that's in some respects smoke, otherwise the night states. and if you go back to the time when donald trump was in the white house, you remember how americans were accusing from undermining american democracy all for being a trend to american democracy of black thing and the strong man. these are the

kinds of accusations, but critics of the community. so you have to keep in mind that 2nd bed it a highly partisan political environment. back in india where you are probably your money and come to you from a neutral then you are, you don't you know your enough cost, but both sides. so one of the accusations that i think what movie is doing, i like one truck, was accused of just the way american democracy so wide from the crumbs from the presidency. a democracy is realistic, not the semi movie. beth, nothing is done, not the income. so changes in law that affect the minorities. so why don't we keep that in mind, but i'm coming back to the larger issue that don't think you're discussing. the

fact is that much before money, even into politics, india, and had concerns about the operations of engine richard terrace from last year, countries and those concerns go back to the 19 duties by the end. and the problem was the murder in birmingham in brooklyn. and as i pretty much just mentioned in bomb explosion, donald anatomy in depth light from colorado to panic. but 9 people on both sides to building descendants abroad is one quarter to the machine store. and they have never been accused of digging down anyone else on listening. so for example, they are more than $100.00 human designated service based and focused on that i wanted in india and india has put up with those terrorists even though some

of them i want in an india fall or pick a task such as the 2008 by a massacre, somebody by comparison, this ship radical who was gotten down in canada. it is, it is, i'm really figuring it, india is supposed to be not only in this most wanted terrorist. so you have to ask me. that is why, why would there been down the summer of skills, bigger and kind of uh, even though his appreciative from the law. he, he, he, he got it on some acts of terrorism in india. and he entered the canada illegally, illegally. i cried for us to to become a citizen twice us uh, promotions for refugee status were what what, what rejected by my go ahead. i'm so i'm sorry to interrupt you, but we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much to all our guests, gary keller, steve hewitt and from actually and thank you to for watching. you can see the

program again any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also, during the conversation on x r handle is at a j inside store for me and how much i'm doing the whole team here by the, the, the,

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