with, with only a nice friend of hers, why it's like the faces that every day for dust is worth making. a hero or a talk with the minor on the jersey to seek activists have been operating for years outside india. now one has been killed in canada, prime minister just introduced accuse this new daily of triggering tension between the 2 countries. so can it be contained and what does this tell us about the flight of religious minorities in india? this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoyed the killing of a sick activist in british columbia has opened up

a diplomatic rift between india and canada. canadian prime minister just introduced as india may have been involved, a charge, new delhi is calling absurd, both sides of expelled each other's diplomats and cooperation on trade and defense could be in jeopardy. we'll go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st sent them on him as this report. seats in canada or cooling for justice. that's after one of their community leaders was killed by gunmen and june. bake use the indian government being involved. now, canadian prime minister just introduce appears to have confirmed so their suspicions over the past number of weeks, canadian security agencies have been actively pursuing credible allegations of a potential link between agents. so the government of india and the killing of a canadian citizen har dave sing. major canada has already expelled an indian diplomat assigned to police. the allegations are credible. but in india protest,

there's pub denounced to go to the government that denied any involvement expelled the canadian diplomat. in retaliation relations already strained at the g. 20 summit in new delhi over a week ago, prime minister and are under moody accused canada of harbouring and encouraging seek separatists to doe said canada would always defend freedom of expression. bodies. international government has frequently been criticized for his treatment of religious minorities. the us state department recently called on canada to dress growing instance of discrimination. targeted attacks the killing of hardy seeing the jar as quotes of diplomatic rips that may prove difficult to bridge and threaten 0 cooperation between the countries on trade and defense. vince and mullin for inside story, the joining me now are our guests in ottawa is gary keller, vice president at strategy core, a government relations and geopolitical advisory. he is also

a former chief of staff to the canadian foreign minister in birmingham is the, if you would associate professor at university of birmingham, he's working on a book detailing the history of terrorism and counterterrorism in canada. and in new delhi is brought much elaine, a professor of strategic studies at the center for policy research. he's former advisor to india, is national security council. a warm welcome to you all. now we should point out, we had a spokesperson from india's ruling b, j, p. party schedule to be on the program with us, but they pulled out before recording. gary, let me start with you today. um. how extraordinary was it that this allegation was made publicly by prime minister true though. well her extraordinary. ah, the news that was broken in the house of commons on monday afternoon. the house of commons has been on a summer break for a number of months now. and, you know, canadians thought that a large focus of the fall, a single problem is gonna be focused on the economy. and within about 2 hours of

the house of commons returning prime minister try to has to do is certainly blown that out of the water with this this uh, this quite explosive news. uh and providing uh, almost you know, a heads up to the opposition parties and it was certainly dominating the headlines and it has dominate the headlines and candidates for the past 48 hours and will continue to do so as kindness to, to is at united nations general assembly later this week, i'm sure he's going to be trying to court more support. i'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that in the amount of sta allied countries around this investigation. but obviously the, the murder of this at the subject was an canadian citizen, made news back a number of months ago when it happened. and now this is just even blown it even further into the stratosphere, in terms of what canadians are hearing and watching. gary, let me also ask you about the fact that when you listen to the language used by prime minister to go in his statement, he's not really definitive up. he says,

the canadian intelligence are investigating credible allegations. he talks about there being a potential link. i want to ask you, um, if you're giving himself a little bit of wiggle room on this, you know, any, any political leader will try to give themselves wiggle room on something like this . you know, if i get very close of the allegation and you know, the, it was interesting to see the reactions of the organization parties, especially the conservative leader, literally official opposition who immediately because 1st reaction was, you know, yes, we all have to stand together against interference and counters, activities and fornia experiences been a major topic in canada, chinese and friends, and our political elections. that has been a major topic. and so this just adds fuel to the fire. but 24 hours later, the opposition leader was asking some more pointed questions. now we need to see before we need to see the full evidence out there. why are these allegations about indian interference in indian activities may pop up when we've had months and years

of allegation of chinese interference not become public. and so i like to say this is a dangerous inflection point for both the government and the opposition. mr. crudo has to basically back up what he has said. and if there's any wiggle room in that, that is going to be very dangerous for the government in terms of its credibility. on the same time, the off position has to be very careful that it doesn't overplay his hand. it has a right and a duty to ask difficult questions in the house of commons each and every day. but it can't be seen to be trying to make political hay over a fairly serious situation. like this rama the indian government has said that any suggestion that they play the role in the killing of hardy saying these are, is absurd. now aside from the initial statement by the canadian prime minister, we also heard from just introduce that. he said that he's not trying to provoke india after he made that the accusation. um, what is the reaction to those remarks?

does india see this as a provocation or any of the record but she already because that's the pointed out. the only question that was true was sitting in the house of commons on monday was the canadian. ready security agencies funding evidence often gets involved in the coming of this city limits, or rather his statement more about allocations that he call the credible allegations about 10.10. sure. india linked to the murder. why would the prime minister of the country stand up in parliament and devil allegations against him of the family country where not a single suspect come from the rest of the murder show, but no arrest, let alone any evidence. he stands up in parliament and basically it goes

the allocations of a radical 6 in canada. well, from the very 1st day of the kelly hills, responsible for the murder turn or whatever. know that when he made that statement in the house of commons, that this would graphically listen relations within their relationships within the i have been listening on draws watch in recent years because prudence government has turned a blind eye to the increasing activities of radical 6 in canada, the fact says that to have a political ties to canadian sick radicals. he leaves a minority government that depends a part of why we, on the support of the new democratic party leader. japanese say that lead saying

is a scene by evidence of name by the election. but he's also the boss dependency attempts that have been fighting for creating a separate sink, homeland auto for a comp delta of india to be known as ca, this time as a lie. and a defend of them is also part of separated and they managed in support of the contest on moments. so given the domestic politics in canada, i know that to those, not any readings have sung, ease printing deleted, rolled out position, maybe domestic, vertical concentration, separate apart in photos, allegations. but they don't, you don't to what he has done, knowing that the switch from them running the screw. you talk about the fact that india is furious by these allegations. from your perspective,

can this growing rift canada actually be contained and, and if so, what has to happen? what you're saying and um it is a done word spiral in relations. each country has picked out, it stops fine. and now they have been put tack, travel advisories in different, somebody today and wives engines wasn't in kind of exercise caution because of a growing 19 the activity in canada and, and also what are the clinton don't widens in canada? i think it's very important for canada and india to stamp this downward spiral human relations because kind of, i mean, yeah, not at groceries. these are friends and i think that it's easy to damage the relationship, but rebuilding it would be far more difficult. so it's really part of what to offer

my new delhi, not to ex escalate macros. they need to think things in a more cautious animal, pragmatic way, and use back general diplomacy rather than airing grievances and suspicions and other nations and public. unfortunately, the board does include us court, you know, he, he or ed suspicions, these obligations as intelligence inputs. we know that not a single suspect of interest and, and this is a mocker because i'm going to happen more than 3 months ago. and if you don't have a single suspect in custody, you obviously don't have any evidence. and so before you open your mouth to public, you should, you should take off the diplomatic consequences on what to see. steve, let me ask you, canada has

a very sizable population of 6. how does that change the dynamics of this growing rest? yeah, yeah, i mean can, that has the largest as the di, sports community in the world, and there's a long history of seek activism. so you can stream, as um, as the canadians involved in violence. in fact i was listening discussion thinking 20 years ago this similar discussion was taking place, including with the true no government, not of just in chicago, but of tier 2 though. so you've got 6 or a as the previous guest mentioned, wrapped in the, in the liberal party, the leader of the new democratic party is our previous guest. mention is a 6, but the deputy leader of the conservative party is also the same. so you have seats and all 3 major parties, and they play a full role in the canadian political scene. our upstanding citizens are in large

communities and british columbia in ontario. so i mean, canada is a very, obviously a very diverse, very multicultural country. and there are dice for community, some number of places in the world, as there are in the united states, as there are in the united kingdom where i am right now as the let me also ask you how much concern is there about the geopolitical consequences of a growing in the canada confrontation, i mean in both the short term and the long term of this i think is really interesting that had as main allies seemed to be very quiet on this issue. because of course, this has come at a point where i'd be united states, the united kingdom are trying to sort of take it away from china and build relations with india. so in some ways that you know, government is not sort of the same for the same song shape as its allies. so it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few weeks. because india is in a rather strong position, given the concerns about china,

including in canada as, as the 1st guest mentioned, the issue for an interference has been displayed. issue focused on china. and now is obviously emerged in relation to india. gary, i saw you were reacting to some what steve was saying that it looked like you wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. yeah. just use points, you know, and, and actually to the other, i guess, points canada has long been seen by india to have a problem on how it deals with cds stream the extremism, the tell us any question. and then in recent months, it is actually it adds in flows and, and the issue around callous that has heated up as c gigs, 3 months of how, what they call a referendum again, certainly communities across canada, calling for independence for a, for a callous. danny state, and we know for a fact too that the movie government has port tried to quietly back channel with some of those community members trying to town down. those might have been on the

fence and so i think the more the government in some ways thought that it was trying to get a handle on a policy any problem in canada. but like i said, for, for 4050 years, the indian government has, has made complaints about that. um and you know, uh, the other issue that has been a huge, if you would indeed, indeed tended relations is those same extremists, gurdwara rose and protest. i've seen posters calling for the assassination of indian diplomats in canada, and we've seen that security has been increased on indian high commission and ottawa and consul general across canada. and so it is, it's a very serious issue that has been pulled out over the last number of months and this, this killing back you in the spring summer. again, focused attention even back then without this was all this other noise coming into into question. so it is a, it's a live question and it's also, it's,

these point is a political issue because in parts of canada, uh, you know, with the 3 regional vancouver, there's 4 or 5 seats for which go back and forth between liberals and democrats, and conservative and it's probably, you know, 8 to 15 seats in the greater toronto. we're area that again, slip around and mr. crudo hasn't been already government. he has the support of the new democrats on this for his is minority government. and as a result, these are very politically important feeds because if there's, you know, 15 to 20 seats that are, have a sizable south asian or see populations that can make the difference between a majority and minority government. a lot of case itself, very, very lot of issues include canadian politics as well because he's not. the politicians are thinking about the news 1st, but that, that discussion is going to come later. um and, and indeed it does have a point that canada has been seen to be weak on tell us standing activity

a tell us down extremism in counter rama. it's a gary's point. uh, let me ask you, uh, india has been raising concerns about the callous on independence movement, not just with canada, but with other countries as well with are our size. we'll see populations like you can and, and australia, right. a while. exactly, and this here has been particularly bad in terms of uh, seeing what we can see abroad. because uh, the 1st thing in high commission, the embassy in london, stone by sick radicals. the end of the compound, they put it on the engine side. they have the parts of the sink contest on flag, and then a few was made in a copy cock attack in san francisco, and they didn't constantly sick that attends storm the consulate, and then they followed it up a few days later with an oscillator attack. they said they said the front here we have the continent on fire. and then we have had a series of round of all the attacks on the body mission. so in the,

i'd say not in that most of your countries. so these 500 most viewed countries are on the hub of sick literacy today because it, what's interesting call us is that back in india among the 6 and 8. yeah, there's nothing on no support for the calling from them on this. the model is only only being only being expires by a small minority of 6, maybe in canada, and the us principally california or in the u. k. and australia. this is way the college found them on, is big advocated. it's an irony because even though they're even, even among the student dias for a those who are getting part of separate cit. copeland only is tiny minority. 6 of the problem is that, you know,

when actually are people speaker was talking about the domestic political combustion. some prime minister, google, what do you have those come functions and you're given a long rope to stick a minute or 2 in your country. you encourage? not only i say in, yeah, companies, you, you, you actually unintentionally cottage terrorism. and this is way you know, it today, it's about in india, canada relations, a time might come when it sits military base to canada, guy out into national acts of terrorism and all the rest of the country. so we don't want that to happen. that's the reason why it's not just about india and canada uses the international security. steve, i saw you reacting to a lot of what romilly saying there, it looks like you wanted to jump in, so go ahead. yeah, yeah, yeah, i mean, the worst act of terrorism in canadian history was the bombing of air india flight

182 in 1985 to 329. people killed $270.00 of whom pagan citizens on a per capita basis. that's the equivalent of a 911 for canada carried out by so you could stream as operating in canada. but i feel like in some ways your guest in india is making the case as to why india might be tempted to do exactly what they've been accused of. i mean, there was a law, i'm concerned that if canada didn't do more in a sense to crack down on the i see got categories and this again goes back decades that india might be tempted to. and there's all kinds of evidence of indian intelligence agents operating and canada monitoring. i see communities, but i think this is going off as a one step further. if these allegations are true and an escalating things beyond which ivy or something beyond the point that the gaining government, and i think most canadians would find acceptable. gary, i saw you reacting as well. so i'm going to let you jump in,

but i also want to ask you when we're talking about these obligations and the seriousness of it all. i mean, is there a point with which the canadian government's going to start making any of the evidence? they say they have public well, that's a great question. and yeah, when we've been dealing with accusations of chinese interference in our political actions, the government's response to date has been too sensitive. parliamentarians can't have access to that. we have to have uh, independent inquiry and even they were fighting an independent inquiry and only last summer, a governor general take a look at that information. and so the owners and the call even through that and now to this is that okay, you have to be more transparent with canadians about these very serious allegations and even 10 is national security advisor testified before house of commons committees think our default position is the procedure, our default position is not to tell things and if you want to see things, we have to be pushed into it and,

and i think this is only going to lead to that. i just want also touch on the fact that it, we started out on the, on this is this really, you know, if you thought that canadian indian relations were cold before, they're in the cryogenic deep freeze for the very short and probably the medium term as well. uh, you know, the, like i said, the relationship is gone hot and cold over the last 40 or 50 years. it really kind of went cold after 2015 when just intrude of focus a lot. this, the foreign policy tension on china at the expense of india. obviously that calculation changed in the wake of the, to my goals. and i made one, jo, okays and, and this increasing chinese interference to those questions which i free trade deal with china. that's off the table, canada 10 months of the launch is a so called in the pacific strategy, which was to act as a counterweight against china in both foreign policy trade and development issues. but what do you do now with an in the pacific strategy when the indo part of that strategy is basically gone and in the deep freeze, but next uh, you know,

a little while here and probably for the length of this truth. oh government. you know, you need it if you need a counter, wait to try it out. it's not good relation is not going to work in canada. and then we've seen this reaction from both the united states, u. k. some of our finalized partners who are going well tell you should really investigate these b, this information. and yes, you know, any killing of a canadian citizen has horrible investigate that further. they're not coming out and just jumping on the bandwagon because they understand and, and joe biden has made this a key part of his form policy strategy, a political strategy to bring india closer to the full. we had a very successful g 20 and just intruder was actually the outlier at the g 20 in terms of being there and, and participating. now we know why because they, they have some very difficult discussions over the course of that conference. but i'm, i want to ask you about the fact that since his election in 2014 prime minister moody has been accused of by many groups of overseeing

a rising tide of conservative hindu nationalism in india. there are minority groups in the countries that of raise concerns about threats to their human rights. this issues been c members receiving wider global attention after 3 pro, call us on active as died in quick succession in different countries earlier this year. what does this say about the plight of religious minorities in india? are 1st, i think you have to keep in mind that india is, i mean, one of the rights democracy. in fact, it's in some respects more otherwise say the night states. and if you go back to the time when donald trump was on the white house, you remember how americans were accusing from undermining american democracy all for being a trip to american democracy of black thing and the strong man. these are the kinds of accusations that critics all the more the $120.00. so you have to keep in mind that 2nd bed it

a highly partisan political environment. back in india where you are problem, whether your money can come to you from a neutral then you are, you don't, you know, your enough cost, but both sides. so one of the accusations that i think about what the movie is doing, i like watching from was a chew stuff. but it just the way american democracy so wide from the crumbs from the presidency. the thing is realistic, not the semi movie that nothing is done, nothing in terms of changes in law that affect the minorities. so want to keep that in mind, but i'm coming back to the larger issue that don't make it discussing. the fact is that much before money, even into politics india, and had concerns about the operations ended richard terrace from

last year countries. and those concerns go back to the 19 duties by the end. and the problem was the mother in birmingham, in brooklyn, and as a pretty much gets mentioned in bomb explosion, donald anatomy in depth flight from colorado can i was being presented people attractive eating disciplines abroad is one quarter to the machine store. and you have never been accused of digging down anyone else on listing. so for example, they are more than $100.00 human designated service based and focused on that. i wanted them in there and, and they have to put up with those services even though some of them are wanting to india fall, or pick a task such as the 2008 by massacre. somebody by comparison. this chick roddic

and who was cutting down in canada is i'm really figuring india, he's certainly not only in this most wanted terrorist, so you have to awesome. so that is why wouldn't, why wouldn't there been down the summer cox killed a bigger and kind of even though his appreciative from the law. he e got it on some acts of terrorism in india, and he entered the canada illegally, illegally me. i've tried for years to, to become a citizen twice us uh, promotions for refugee status were well, what were rejected by my go ahead. i'm so i'm sorry to interrupt you, but we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much to all our guests, gary keller, steve hewitt, and from actually and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website builders here at com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also during the conversation on x

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