news, as it breaks libya's from the west of the cubs the cubs even echoes falls lines to help those the need in this particular divided nation with detailed coverage base hospital was full show during the rescue. operation time continues to be for those homeless the homes from around the world. a major part of georgia maloney's message is that this is a european border as well as an autonomy in one requiring a european solution. the as well as everybody's on take full control of newborn oak or above armenian separatists in the region agree to disarm after a quick, a solid 5 bucket there also considering re integrating into everybody's on. so is this the end of this decades long conflict? this is inside storage, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoyed it. only 24 hours of fighting is there by john has changed the facts on the ground in the going to car about a new cease fire with ethnic armenian groups appears to put the country's forces in full control of the region. thereby, john and armenia have battled over the enclave for decades. but this time armenia kept out of the fighting, leaving ethnic armenian groups in the region to fend for themselves in the coming months. the future of those groups will be decided along with their integration into the as everybody's on the state will go to our panel in just a few moments, but 1st, defense them on, on, as this report, after lightning offensive, azerbaijan now said it's in full control of the gore know, car box, ethnic, armenians, and the disputed region agreed to lay down their weapons and to spend their forces . i mean, so as a result of the status of the anti terrorist images, azerbaijan has restored its sovereignty. the events that occurred yesterday, and today the same time we'll have

a positive impact on the peace process between armenia and azerbaijan. i want to hope that al steps the results of anti terrorist midges will eliminate the obstacles that will put forward express, proposed, quote, what you want from the armenian side. and this will create a new reality. long 10 piece in the south caucuses. in vain clave is internationally recognized as part of as or by john, but large parts were controlled by ethnic armenians with close links to the armenian government to wars if in photo, from the corner car box to pull the soviet union last full scale conflict in 2020 so as or by john makes sizable gains in armenia, the latest defeat spark protests, many say ethnic our meetings in the corner car box. we're a band and they want prime minister nickel passenger to stand down pushing and says the army in the military wasn't involved in the latest fighting or the seatbar process. the main course from english we hope the ministry escalation will not

continue because stability is very important. for future projects, thousands of russian peacekeepers failed to stop the fighting. they helped evacuate around $10000.00 ethnic armenian civilians. now build malls or isn't use the spire . as, as or by john seeks to reintegrate the region. and it's people been involved in for inside story. the, all right, from war on all this i'm joined by our guest and assemble is as marriage of her over board member of the center of analysis of international relations. she's a form or is there a bunch on diplomat and advisor to the minister of energy and you're on is arson. how about john, editor in chief of alex media and armenian george and media platform. he's also the former foreign policy advisor to the armenian prime minister, also and assemble is matthew prize, a former us mediator to the and i'm going to car about conflict. he's a former us ambassador to as everybody on

a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. as mary, let me start with you today as everybody on now intends to bring that going to turn it back under full control. will they be able to do that? how easy or difficult will that be? oh, thank you very much for so 1st of all, for the invitation and you know, as a bridge on conductors and shorts of on tide harris operation we call is local for size. and dikarious operation, which is aimed at only beach purchasing with military targets, provided that uh no civilian objects were even harmed orange or the object of the reach. and the reason of that was that recently 2 days ago, 7, several jenny policeman for killed as a result of the landline explosion that were of trying to the end, deliberative hauser bridge on the line and via the invitation. all started union forces officer that was phillip over. so we have been warning about the strength for a long time and also about the existence of h around $10000.00 millis shows army name and which is going from

a very to 1000 bridge on the last. but we were all gone and heated so as a result of all these events happening, one after another has ever done decided to embark on this shore to local and talked to her as offering sion. and uh, you know, that today there was a meeting with the representatives of the crowd behind me just in your box. and there were some agreements which between as a but john, a representative and they represent this all the corner behind maintenance and you walk on among others, were a commitment and a fighting by their agreement on the cease fire that was rich yesterday, each one of those results 3 months, the causes and disagreement was that there malicious has to this it said is on and has to. these are impose to go sort of design lewis and foster that of course there is, are also close at about the discussion of x, y, and the rights and the conditions. but with the car behind means, the oldest issues were discussed today, and this is only the 1st meeting. so there is an agreement about the follow up meetings as well. monday with the request put by a crowd behind me is towards our representative, and one of them was to ah,

satisfy their need for a few or 4 minutes hearing aids. and those needs for met with satisfaction. so it will be a follow up with a part of behind me instead as a by john. so what i'm saying is this. yes, yeah, it's mary. i actually live it is sorry to interrupt you, but let me just get back into some of those details in depth with you shortly. i also want to turn to arson right now. ours. and i want to ask you about the fact that the prime minister nicole pushing the on has said that the armenian military was not involved in the latest fighting. and that they're not involved, or they had not been involved in the ceasefire process. and what does that mean going forward? does that mean that he has accepted the outcome of this? well, 1st of all, thank you again on my end for inviting to the show. i mean, a, not only the prime minister announced that armenian military, it was not present in car bar, and everybody knows that that's been true for the last 2 years. as of the summer of 2021, there was no army in military, whatsoever. it was all taken out,

the russian peacekeepers have been there watching it as they are by johnny's, have been controlling, gets very, very tightly so that you know that i will have to address though to points that our colleagues uh asked me about his plans, hes pointed out talking about um not, not touching cb, the and so i mean we have over $200.00 people that offer which including civilians and children over $400.00 people injured people are, i mean the whole world has been seeing cost upon of gifts has been shelven bombed villages have been destroyed, people have been evacuated outside of their homes. so i mean i, i don't even know how, how you guys are talking about not attacking or not targeting civilians. but talking about the army and military or arming is involved in armenia. has said that it's not going to go into war. we does everybody on. however, it's open for receiving people who would like to leave from what i can understand now from our media and from our contacting car box. the situation is so dire that i

think 80 percent of the population would leave the place right away. coming to our mean. yeah. well basically because they, they don't have anything. they don't have electricity, they don't have the fluids, they don't have basic supplies. now, with regards to the meeting, a today between car behind me ins and outs, everybody on the fields, it was the 1st meeting, as we all heard a car buff. armenians announced that they were several points where they had no agreement. i don't know how it's going to go move forward. it does say about johnny's announcing, this is one of many. we don't even hear what exactly what was a kind of a hard thing is, were offered. i don't think anybody has any basically confidence in possibly leaving there. i'll say about dining room after the a day of attack. various for on seeing car box any fall colleagues from us or by john are actually genuine about any kind of integration or dialogue. they should stop killing our civilians and the population. you never know kind of matthew, what we've seen transpire in the past couple of days from your vantage point. does

that mean the end of this decades long conflict? i mean, is that what we're seeing here? essentially i think so, i mean i've been working on trying to mediate this conflict since 2001. and there have been moments where there seemed to be progress and then back tracking. but the progress was always toward coming up with a framework, a see a radical framework to settle that conflict. in this case, the framework was established already now uh through the ceasefire statement of november 9 and 102020. after the 2nd quarter by 4, there was an obstacle in moving from the framework to a final peace treaty. we never talked about a peace treaty in the past. now, a peace treaty, i think, is definitely with insight. but the, the, the, the president of the european council shot of michelle, the us secretary of state tony blinking, had been, had been leading one mediation process. the russians have, as well as their own. and i, i think what was really the big problem that was blocking the finalization of

a peace treaty has been the presence of weapons and call them car box militia, or the asked by john, just call them armenian forces. in any case, as long as those military capabilities were there, there was a time patient by extremists to oppose pushing young innovator who don't want a settlement to be able to put a lot of pressure on him. and also that military pressman served as an irritant for the officer by johnny side and undermined any sense of trust with that military presence gone. i don't see any serious obstacle to a peace treaty except to push in young's own survival physically and politically. because he has some very strong opponents now in here of on who, who can't believe that he didn't bring our media on the side of the car boxy armenians as mera. one of the big questions right now is how is there by john going to handle the issue of the ethnic armenian population of the going to car box. you

were talking a little earlier about details of the plan thus far from your vantage point. how to go forward with that because in europe on we've seen that there have been protested that a voice fears that as everybody's on might be points to launch a crack down on ethnic armenians in the going to car box. i personally, if i me address the points that were raised by, i mean by our, i mean and goes guess before hand, you know, when the military operation started, there was an s, and there's some clarification sent to all a representative or a security. i'm sitting in car box in order to make sure that the, if i created and as i'm a journalist or it is also bumps, was the references papers in the cases of, of our creation office of millions from those areas. and they're going to turn corridors were also created for them. so the problem is that our meeting at craig is located during the 3 uh fortification near the inhabitants areas. so maybe they could have been some collateral damage, but those numbers are very, very excited. so i wouldn't really go was those numbers along. so we took all the

measures of precautions for gas canister global law. so that's dodge. and the 2nd issue is about the presence of some of the shows that the mr. vice that raised. and that was a number one secure to spread to as it by john and the very to is that what you on your lands reintegration or kind of a harmonious a list. and also this is the number or there's a humans i mentioned also to this issue a 7500 other by john is kind of go back to the birth of man because of the land line, right. because of the existence of the illegal militias and those territory, and nobody's ever talking about that. so again, before we're talking about humans, right, the service i'm going to, i mention which of those and not to return blind, i to the fight of other chinese, better for expels from those theory. there was sort of years ago, i'm back to a question. what as about, john, is, are planning to do another 3 integrate. those are these people, the car behind me is to have the magenta society we have raised and reached out to them on number of occasions. i mean, we're the only person we think of when i was a bunch on it for the some kind of a hard manufacturing to con candy off a couple of months ago. but then they refused another, it,

me think invitations because the separate his forces. and i mean at the was just, they were just tracking them down and preventing their meetings of a general for it is and the making into a block that happened the currency. it was also a plan to be before this meeting before the military operation started, but they also refuse to come for this meeting. so no with didn't have to go through this, let's say violence or military operations in order to reach out to car about our maintenance for the dial. if we had been reaching out to them and extending our hands of conversation and dial up to them for a long time, but they were back down and skipped back by the birth is forces. under these conditions now the streets, the talk of the are the plans that a car as a but johnny will forward these off looking forward for their reintegration for their culture, a ride for their educational rise. and this is all on the, on the discussion and i'm sure that the book i could find common grounds. i do that post coming meetings because this is only the 1st music. i'm sure they should be more than fix the call,

the arson. i can see that you want to jump and i'm going to let you do that. but i also have to ask you about some things that matthew brought up. matthew talked about the fact that what has happened in the going a car box has brought some peril to the potentially the political survival of the armenian prime minister. and i want to ask you about that, because on wednesday you had thousands of protesters taken to the streets of your yvonne and they demanded the resignation of the prime minister for his handling of this crisis. i mean, how much does this imperil him politically? i mean, it's definitely having an impact on that. 60, no doubt about it. people are doing some of the people who are originally from car of a who ended up losing their homes and, and, and, and we're back now or moved to armenia or have legitimate anger. there are also political forces, often times linked to external parties. there are, of course, people who are angry with this government and they're there during the streets. they did, they would process even today. we'll talk about possible political survival. i mean,

many was the tech talking about physical survival. i don't know about that, but we'll see. but i have to get back to that. i mean, i mean, can we not actually stop, but can we stop fabricating stories? i mean, nobody was given him any 30 inquiry or for the last 10 months as the budget has been blockading, never know, caught off. we had people dying out of starvation, people couldn't get out of the car, but for their medical needs. was there by john a couple of months ago, 2 months ago started talking about yeah, sure, no problem. we can open the out of that route and you can use us about johnny territory. the amount of hate fruits that's kind of a hard means, our hearing about themselves, the amount of anti ard meeting and notions that we know existing as their budget. obviously there is an between, between the societies in general, i'm not talking about just as their budget. that's true. but we're talking about sharing that we'd be compared to pets and animals. we believe we would cost him a hearing that you either reintegrate forced, forced integration or you have to basically make your choices. so right now,

in this level of rhetoric, both on the state blood televisions on the all to show levels. i mean, how do you imagine car about on never know part of the hard medians getting along and saying, you know what, it all didn't happen. we know you're now great. we can live with you, give us some rights, and we'll get along with that. my funding and what we see from here right now, they're going to call the hard means are not only, i mean, fighting for their own lives on daily an hourly basis. but i have no trust and confidence in any possible cohabitation, which i've seen in the long run is a huge mistake that i say about john is making. i think before we can talk about any form of integration or integration, there must be some kind of a dialogue of the reconciliation process. there must be a law process of discussing call. we can actually imagine leaving together, let alone just being reintegrated by force. i mean, as what would you guys to i mean, yeah proper. i think yes. the next day. so the next couple of days we'll see what

happens when we do see that some kind of a connection between these attacks and car box and the protests in europe on. we also see obviously the big boy in the, in the, in the neighborhood in the region. the rush out being cutting the peacekeepers on the ground and being unable or unwilling to actually take care of or, or, or, or implementing their mandate. and uh, barshan hours and i'm really, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but i do want to ask you more about about russia's role in this shortly. i do want to go to matthew matthew, i saw you reacting to some of what arson was saying there. so i'm gonna give you the opportunity to respond not please go ahead. a stairwell in all these 21 years. i talked about working on the car box issue in the white house and the state department with president leah. the current president's father with this current president, with your media inside of the president of as or by john, has consistently said that also. but john's goal is the reintegration of the armenian community in to us or by john at the end of this process. he was

consistent throughout the 2nd quarter about or he's consistent now. and so i, i really believe that is the goal. and i also agree with ours. and that simply, you can't flip a switch and say, okay, everybody's integrated because the law says that you're also by johnny citizens. there needs to be this long dialogue. there needs to be what is there it was talking about, the guarantees for the protection of the cultural, the economic, the political rights, the security of the ethnic armenian community. it will take a long time to work through those issues and to build the requisite trust. but the process perhaps began today with that meeting and you have lock, it'll take a while, but, but it's underway as mary. i'm with regard to the meetings that have been taking place and you have lock up. do you expect that russia will be heavily involved in, in talks going forward as well? thank you very much. first of all, if i may quickly react to our meeting representatives or it's, you know, i, nobody said that this in, for integration has to happen by force and that's definitely were not my words. i

have to subscribe to wasn't as reprisals that, that these has to be a dialogue. that was what i was talking about. it has to be a process and nobody expects these 2 nations that have the part in so, and i'm also finding most of it for a decade, but just re integrate into each other overnight. so it is a process, it is a dialogue, but we do not want our union improper or i mean a nationalist remish is forces to useful trait. and to hinder this process, that is what is happening. we don't want and they used to prevent that armina armina. so carl bought from getting into dialect with us or by john, that was also the problem. so therefore, i wouldn't wish to want to be reset or nicer today, but also about the watching court or as a bridge on was offering con, can be, i was on the phone, can do both for a long time. however, the sword was both by concrete, from the surface, they didn't want to get an age to be slower because they just wanted to function quarter door to offer it was ok and the check points because that was easy as to bring in the new shows and the landlines into us about the territories and then

create problems. so as a badge on security. and then there was an agreement fridge on 1st of september that the bulstrode should have been open simultaneously, which was also again look at by our medium size. so as you see, we have been extending lots of a proposals and lots of ideas of cooperation. however, they were all blocked because our menu was for, was preventing and they just wanted or we know lose a solution. so they just want to follow the roads quotes and i'm watching road open without going to check ones. so that didn't happen. but now bulstrode are operating simultaneously and this is what was ever done was for, for the 1st place. mm hm. um, what about the wash as roll? well, you know, um russia has peacekeepers in the place and as a bridge on was cooperating with them when it came to the security. personal security of the car. armenia is in the areas where the russian peacekeepers wilson for hours of porch i what, what are they will be the part of the dialogue was the corner block. our menus are not. again, this is not something that we would like to discuss with the presence of

a 3rd party who would like to talk to current about our me as was citizens directly and discuss their problems ourselves, which happened actually today. so i don't know if you have seen the statement of accounts but essential desperation, but there are statement actually clearly said that there was some progress in the top. so let us talk too far behind me is our sales and what make songs, experiences be armenia. i beat anyone else, i listen to their comp, which was happening today again, and the complaints and their demands were met positively from us. so, but you on the search. so as they were trying to government will take steps in order to provide them was fuels, provide them with some notes here and keep the asked for. so are the fuel and the heating system for the schools, for the hospitals, and for all the necessary objects for survival, for a living will be provided for them. so again, this is the 1st step in the dollar. they should be more steps, it's a process, it's the dialect, and they shouldn't be announcement of the various of this for the arts. and i,

i see again, you do want to jump in, but i want to get back to the point you were making about russia. and i want to ask you about the fact that many in our media are criticizing what they see as the failures of russia, russia broker, the ceasefire. russia has had a, a peacekeeping force there since. and then they'll go in a car box is 2020 at many, and armine are saying russia didn't do enough to protect the lives of ethnic armenians. um, how much anger was there right now about russia? i mean, there are protests in front of the russian embassy, and there is, of course, the societies shifting in. it's maybe understanding of what the russians role has to be 9 is, but i'll get to that. of course, i mean 2 things that need to be uh, straightforward and clear. uh you talking about uh the, the, everybody on the guest is talking about both the worlds being open. it's simply not true. yes. launching core door was opened 2 or 3 times just to allow some people with critical care needs to be moved out by the red cross, but nothing was allowed to come in as you well know,

while you were talking about opening the road and that's it. you're using please talk you either taking it take you to leave it is what we're hearing from us. i mean, this is very much a continuous policy. often the kinds thing i mean you're making a condition, a situation for the people you never know car though is with charter which i so i'm bearable that there don't imagine how they're going to be leaving with other. but jonathan, under does everybody on the state, i'm not even going to get into the rights issues and stop right now. while the you have lost negotiations or the 1st meeting you have left what's happening. so kind of get was being so we were seeing bobs and while to talk what's happening. i mean, can you explain why you were doing that? on the one hand, you were calling the people to speak with them and not the same time you were continuing to send shells, even near the hospitals. the see really an infrastructure. i mean, other about johnny soldiers are inside almost insights the front of get and people are thinking. ok, well next thing is like tomorrow night we're going to wake up and we're going to

see out there about 20 flags here. i mean, this is for seeing your way in and keep about creating a situation where people have no other choice but to ask and beg for evacuation. i don't imagine in this situation within this conditions as, as nice uh, packaging. as you can try to give us, i mean people are devastated. people became homeless. people now head basic supplies. i live on medic, medical meds and other things for months now. no after daring then by showing their leaving areas you're telling them well re integration. that's what's gonna happen. it's all great. take it or leave it is what we're hearing basically. i mean pushing out our pollution open. i don't know car box by every single step that you were making as much as today. the footage was coming out. that's kind of a hard means and nothing but johnny smith and you, you quote it and i'll finish it to you. you quoted to us in about 20 president's office. indeed you said that all this is one of the many meetings. i'm not sure if any meetings are going to happen if we continue seeing and constantly being worried

about finding our kids right now, what i'm seeing on social media whenever they have internet and car box, they never talk about people asking whoever just seen these guy have you seen this book just seen my parents, people are lost, people have no information. people don't know what is happening. their communication is cut off, their basic supplies are cut off and they feel like next thing is going to happen. it needs to be a type of map and everyone. matthew, let me ask you, um, there are those questioning if russia will actually be able to play an effective role in peace keeping going forward. and many have suggested that russia is simply to stretch because of the war, a new crane. what do you say as well, you know, as much as my government and i personally locked horns with my russian counterparts on georgia when, when russian date of georgia in august of 2008. i worked very well with them when he came to mediation of the car about conflict and found them to be professional

and creative, including foreign minister lever off even including president. then president marietta and the peacekeepers, i think are basically performing their task. the peacekeepers mandate is not to intervene on the territory of us or by john carl bock is part of us or by john to pick the peacekeepers. their mandate is to come in 2 locations, as armenian military forces, withdrew with us with a suit, november 9, 10, ceasefire statements said. so until there was this, this clarification that there are no more armine and affiliated military forces in cairo. but it wasn't in the mandate of the, or any of the russian peacekeepers to go in there. they don't have a mandate to that to of piece enforcement. their mandate is not to stop azerbaijan from taking what it believes is a legitimate security operation. people are not peacemakers by their peacekeepers. and so i'm hoping that now there is

a piece that's going to be kept. and that the russian peacekeepers will provide a sense of security for the, for the armenian community that will remain and cut about. however big or small it may be. all right, well, we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guest as married jeff are over are send her at young and matthew bryce and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just or dot com and prefer the discussion. go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also drive the conversation on x r handle is at a j inside story. remember how much from german a whole team, bye for now the, the the

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