sized remarks connected with one of the worlds was humanitarian crisis. we don't assess any getting migrant joining with the military to impose that deadly political agend. yep. to filter our nation. what is happening to the retention? that's one of the biggest stains of the country as a whole. as a not really. this is important to me in an unholy alliance or analogies here. it's been disputed for decades, but not going to car box is now under, as they're by john's control. as thousands of armenians fleet itself declared, government says it will cease to exist. so what does the future hold for the region? and what will happen to with separatist movement? this is inside stored the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much room is there by john is now in full control in the corner car about that appears to mark the end of decades of fighting over the disputed enclave armenia. and as everybody's gone, have struggled for control of the region. for decades. it's internationally recognized as part of his there by john, but it's home to a large population of ethnic, armenians fearing reprisals there now fleeing across the border. and so what will become of them and goodness, have implications for separate to struggles elsewhere. and the world will go to a panel in just a moment. but 1st for them on has this report tens of thousands of refugees are leaving the place they want schools, home, ethnic armenian to say they no longer feel safe. now the core, no car box is entirely under the control of as or by shot armenian prime minister nichol passion. yon says what is happening is a crime against humanity. doesn't have auto body how 10 years. in a few days, there will be no more armenians left. no gordon, a car of

a does an act of ethnic cleansing and depriving people of their homeland bodies was something they had been warning the international community about for a long time. so as for our media, are proud to now is to receive our brothers and sisters to put it from there going to cordova as careful as possible to provide the needs earlier this month, as or by john last, a lightning attack on ethic are meeting and forces the controlled part of the core new car, back region within 24 hours. these areas we're in control. the corner car back has long been internationally recognized as part of as or by sean, but it's home to a large population of ethnic armenians. azerbaijan and armenia had been fighting over it for decades, but this time armenia did not step in to protect its people there, as well as or by john no plans to fully integrate in a corner car back into his territory and says, the army needs living there have nothing to fear, you're the one who just added to it seems clear that the people living in the car

about region, all citizens of azerbaijan, regardless of the mr. tate so they say state security and rights would be insured by the state of us or by john. i am show that the integration process of the medium people living entire back to as a by johnny society will be successful in the corner car bucks or media and separate as leader has been arrested. that's despite the cease fire deal, and which azerbaijan promised to allow those who laid down arms to leave the south declared republic effectively, no longer exists. the face of new garner car back decided by force of arms. and for those refugees who were able to cross the border, comes the challenge of building a new life fence mullin for inside story the. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests in buck who is new. gar, are put that i. e, a member of is everybody's john's parliament, and assemble is matthew prizes,

a former us mediator and then a corner car back conflict. and joining us from here on is our sins. all right, john, former foreign policy advisor to the armenian prime minister, nicole pushing them a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story . make our, let me start with you today. they're going to car box is now under, as are by john's control. does that mean that the armenia is everybody's on, fight for and go in a car box is finally over? well, thank you very much for having me. first of all, we don't have such a, we don't have such a place like not going to cut about the regionally, school cut off and i'm boarding these that russian dirt which was used previously. but the region this cold cut off. so well of hopefully yes, we are really a keys to have a long lasting piece with our me because the whole think was around this patricia invoice or occupational pardon me, is a division of the by chance lands by armenia. and then the pop of the reason being there. so now the situation is that the disarmament of armenian millet punching

kind of off continues. so that's it. but in the army collected all the weapons and munitions and we discovered like munitions every day. and the scale is really soaking for 30 years. this area was agrees on with a low list on and hopefully now our main goal is to integrate armenians of cut off. and hopefully these whole, you know, me looked on sentiment list. agenda is closed because we are really keen to have peace in our region. i would like just to mention that food and all these period of time was originally army was a, was extremely close, as you know, was targeting only me that the receiving this and it and for us it was meeting for the not, not to create any kind of planning and panic amongst people and among the settlements . so we've been um, trying to do our best to have like um, the steps in, in integration process. like we have literally we have di, look, we've armenia. so i was caught up with

a representative this week sense we sense applies to them with and medicines was on fire, my electricity's to be supplied now with some fuel. so we are trying to make sure that the old unnecessary things and all of the necessary steps are done for civilians. in the meantime, we are trying to make sure that we are cleaning these, going from weapons from new nations for mines, you know, from oldest illegal matters. that's what was there for many years. and um, well the thing is that the symbol we expect the, i'm sorry to, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but let me, let me, let me just ask you about something you, you mentioned because you said something that we've heard from other government officials, which is that this region will be re integrated um, but the government of is everybody's on has not explained how it would be re integrated. what are the plans for re integration? well i think the integration plans are uh, more or less they are. we are discussing it with the presenter, the sofa of armenia is of quite

a buck we already have for adults. we did for them where they can apply and to become citizens. so positive by john those that want to stay. but we want to, uh, to clean this don't to have a better infrastructure for them to have a better leading condition. because and, and the legal base for us is constitutional, positive by john. they will have older rights as all the other ethnic groups are leaving. you know, everybody's on house because we have many ethnic groups. we have jews, we have russians, we have george and we have products, we have totally sleet case. so all of them these peacefully cool exist together in the respect and dignity. so this is what we owe for to armenia. so cut off because you get a g r, i'm sorry to, but i started you're up to them. but i, i just want to ask you about another point you're making, you're talking about uninsurance of rights. but the fact of the matter is that on the ground, you have thousands of people, thousands of ethnic armenians that are fleeing. and they are saying that they don't believe that they are safe, they say they do not believe these guarantees that have been made about their safety. so how do you react to that?

well, it's obviously, you know, they've been, boy and brain worked for 30 years. the whole ideology was around either by janice and armenia as being incompatible and i'm not being sarcastic. this is literally what they are president coach area and we're seeing. and these ideology was also promoted by movie, by dice, photo, by all the armenians politicians. why? because they didn't want their goal was to mix part deposited by john period whole i think it was, it was it on that. and now when we offered them to stay, when we are seeing that you, we've got the older rights, you know what's happened? see if they lose, no money is dying. it shows that the whole purpose valuable schools. they are, well i think all of your support schools, but from our sites and why would the most of them when they, um, when they go to get him on they are being interviewed by media. they are. and one being all said, did you have any problems? they said no, we didn't, we've been told to leave. so the leaders say products is lead. there's this criminal, they told police people to leave in the reality. they are not leaving because of the situation on the ground. they are leaving because of some,

something someone told them, or most of their theater, but not because something happened to them on the ground. they've been hostages of this criminal support says, and they've been brain most by them. of course they now uh they don't see anything else. we are offering them a better life. i'm telling you, and our government is very keen. we're also doing them better in life. we're all setting them to stay and to become a good by just citizen man. i must also say that, you know, want to swim along. the gen is the expelled from their homes. they, they, they, you know, what was a some, what they offer to us. you either leave or you die, the 1000000 people were expelled from their homes. so 2 years ago they moved also triple back, and we want this integration to happen and we got it. so it goes to the, i mean time, i need to go now to ours and ours, and i know you want to jump in. i see that you're reacting a lot to what you are is saying. one of the things i want to ask you about is the fact that the government and is there by john as saying that ethnic armenians have nothing to fear, that they will be reintegrated. first of all,

what is your reaction to that? thanks for having me. what else started with these facts speak for themselves? i mean, as you mentioned, as dr. hoss has been saying over 90000 people fled not go into a car box during the last 3 days. if the life they were going to get the necessary budget was going to be so great, why would they want to leave? i mean, come on, talking about the criminal regime. you're talking to the administration local administration, 3rd time today and you have law. why are you talking to criminals? if they are criminal, you're arresting, picking, and choosing whoever you want, right now, people are coming, which fears, and even on the board or you're stopping them and she mediating them with your media right now as we speak, you were talking about the munitions weapons? no, but panic amongst the people you failed on that you failed on providing these people any opportunity to ever think about leaving, you know, say about let alone the situation with human rights in your own country. freedom,

house reports are talking about those are about you on being and that's pretty country and even the car about being wash the free. you have what you're talking about. i don't, i is the property which has occupied, populated by just the land because you're speaking about them in the country would never do that and you know what you got, you know, they, most of them have armenia passport. they got me just haven't much less because i'm a guy. let's please let our son finish this point. we will come back to you shortly . are some please go ahead and keep the show just for you in the garden. no problem . you can also do it on your facebook, like this is a show we down to 0 and i would respect, i respected your talk and i would expect the same from you. thank you. so the situation on the ground right now is disastrous. people are losing their head, lost their homes, they had to leave last 2nd, leaving everything behind. and the only place they could go was that, i mean, yeah, because they are afraid. not just because of the situation in your own country. what i mean with no political opponents to the existing government with no free

journal heseman freedom of speech, let alone but say thing that decides the large scales army, no forget the hatred towards our medians. how do you imagine these people leaving us there by john? within the other, by johnny, we do a constitution, if you are all citizens that deprive the basic right. so right now what we're seeing is what you have done is that the plan to the continued plan of doing the ethnic cleansing. it's a clear ethnic cleansing policy officer about john that has been in place for a long time. and right now you've got what you wanted. so i don't know we're going to populate those places with probably your own people. i. i don't want to talk about our so far, so let me, let me, let me just ask you more. so what i'm going to tell you, how can i apply it to just armine expositions. and i remember when you go online, i will give you a moment to reply. i need to ask or send another question, your arse. and i want to ask you about how our media is going to be able to handle, helping the, the ethnic armenians who are fleeing the going to car back. what are the plans in

place for that? and that's a very good question. and right now, as we're seeing on the border, we have a medical uh, personal pay. so now we have a lot of, i mean, basic food because these people have been deprived off of uh, basic supplies for the last 9 months. uh right now we're trying to sort of the largest scheme is to absorb that may not mean yet in different regions in towns. today as we were following the records, some of the people are staying in the nearby region as soon as some are being dispersed in different parts of the country. a lot of them ended up in europe on right now. the government, the saying that has enough housing capacity. however, i'm sure this is temporary. these people have been replaced, displaced from their policies. and this is a ad for a small country like ours, 800000 people in the country of 3000000 is going to be a huge deal. but i'm, i'm not sure that the issue many types of support is going to come from the international community. but the government so far, i mean yeah,

so far is handling it. we'll see what comes into short term and in the long run, matthew, let me ask you your opinion on what happens going forward. what is the future hold for the region and also what kind of implications could all this hold for separate struggles in the region and in other parts of the world as well. first of all, i mean the main focal point of course is going to be with both guests. so with our sending me god are talking about the disposition of these people who have left their homes. so that's one of the most traumatic experiences in any person's life. right, and they're leaving everything behind. it's true that the, the government of hazard by john for all my fears, involved with the kind of conflict, had embraced the idea that the armenians hopefully would stay. and as or by johnny's would refer to their homes, returned to their homes, are the ones that have been displaced? that seems unrealistic right now, but hopefully looking forward, we will see officer by john, deliver. uh, you know, the, as i think we talked about before,

revenge is one of the most powerful negative motivators in, in our human being. and, you know, there are there more of those expulsions make, are talked about 800000. she said a 1000000 that some of them were killed. there was a massacre to place culturally. and so it's, it's, it's understandable that the armenian side would think, oh my god, there might be revenge, but there isn't to yet. there is indeed, i don't hear that hatred in us or by johnny society, by the way, some corners there are extremists says there are in our media. but in general, the government of us are by john. they're saying something amazing it saying, come on, let's try to do this together. we hope you'll stay and, and let's go forward to a peace treaty. so the next thing i think is going to happen is a peace treaty president that we have clearly wants and also by john is now the status quo power. prime minister pushing young clearly wants a peace treaty, but he's being reviled for that back intermediate because he's seen as not having supported the car boxy armenians and somehow being soft and being not used. i do

think there's going to be a pc though within months, even though it won't be popular in our need yet. the other impact is on russia. russia. uh, you'll probably a prime minister pushing on already said that russia is no longer a protector of our media, that this was before. last week's military activities and put in is various. and so i think there's going to be a question coming up quickly about armenia is political orientation. is russia still going to play a role? and then also by john, i have to figure out whether he wants the russian peacekeepers to stay at matthew. we're, since you're talking about russian peacekeepers in the russian role going forward. i want to ask you about, you know, from your perspective is what we've seen happen in the going to car box. is this pointing to the fact that in a part of the world where russia has long been sort of in charge, that the balance of power is essentially changing? oh, a 100 percent. i mean, look during the 2nd car by 4. so in the autumn of 2020 moscow was sending warnings to, to buck who not to push too far. you'll recall that as or by john stopped it's military

operation. short of the capitol step on the character from kennedy is he asked for by john, just call it one side of it by john recovery to show at that time moscow was telling us or by john don't don't push it too far today. i don't think president lee is paying much attention to president puts in. it's hard to imagine russia as having a legitimate role in, in peace making, given its invasion of ukraine not to mention invasion of georgia to inpatients of ukraine. so i think the prestige, russia as a geo political player is terribly undermined, but it's still about what's going on. it's still really powerful and it's still right there on the border of us or by john. so i wouldn't say russia is no longer going to be a player. but you know, as john is charging its own destiny now to an extent that it never could be for any guy. i know you wanted to respond to some of what arson was saying earlier. please go ahead. uh, yeah. well, uh, uh, just to be spoke to some ideas because up me,

said our son was saying, lots of accusations, but let's put aside the emotions and just see the fact. the fact says that uh, mazda was there by jim that will divide by our media. they are full, full, un security council resolutions, those and so far were documents confirming these and which were ignored by our media. so when, when he's talking about increasing, i remember one thing that i want to tell you, you know, what was the justification of armenians side for the occupational board more than the boss and surrounding region. they said that they wanted to prevent potential genocide. i wouldn't want to repeat that. so for that they have, it's spelled $1000000.00 as a by jenny's come. they are phones. so in reality, also by just doesn't have any record of it cleaned it, but the media does auto media not only expelled all of it by james from warner media, but they also occupied dozen by gentlemen and expelled advice, ends from their homes as a bridge. and we have all the other groups leading together. we don't have

a record of ethnic cleansing. and also let's use put them in the correct way, you know, it cleans in good. someone is forced to leave when we are saying that we are offering them to stay and to become citizens of us that are by john. so this is not a clean thing by default. please do not use a terminology like that. you know, because you are misleading people, do not mislead international community. i mean, you know, so i managed to mislead mislead international community, not ninety's when it's in the way that our lives. now it is over and we really want peace. we don't, we never had to go to queens towards armenia. we never had, we never had any problem with armenian sleeping in color, but it was, you know, so i just jumped the, it was clean animals that came their brain most people's minds and she kept them as hostages. now the beloved street, of course, is there. they are choice whether they want to leave or what they want to space for them, our side we got on the they are safe. if the, if they say they will be members of our society, they will enjoy the right as jews have. i don't know, let's these have pops. have talked to russians altogether,

happy and they will be leaving in peace on thinking this evening. much better live . so then the garter, you have that you, you are, you weren't dispute. you are disputing. now, the accusations that have been made about ethnic cleansing, the concerns about it, i want to ask you about the fact that there are western governments that have been expressing alarm over the humanitarian situation right now. and many of them have started demanding access for international observers. to monitor, is there a bi john's treatment of the local population? is that something that is there by john would agree to as well? absolutely. well for the full i see, i see was always there. you know, i see, i see the russian military contingency as peacekeepers are there, and no other by john offered to you in agencies to come to see the play. so is so into discussion. i mean, you please in due course, it will happen, but you have to understand that these events is a heavenly militarized zone. it is the every way of mis swamped it. so if something happens, we won't be responsible for that. it's a great zone. so we have to take care to speak to people coming cuz they are now

you know, now that we are in control, we will be able to bring people to show something before the safety issue was there . and also, as i said, i see i see was always in place. so from our side other by down, it made it corporate. if we have corporate thing with all the sites, you know, we will. so we have, we want to cooperate with armenia as well, like there's a piece view on the table. and i will also to say that despite the fact that otherwise you don't have the ability to do minutes, you know, our home, we want the work. it was up, everybody on the old part piece street the to our media and for 3 years we're going back and forth, back and forth. army and prime minister is trying to do something he did with nice the integrity, but then he again started supporting support updates and kind of us sending them lift our stuff. congratulations for a separate system using whatever you know, but now it's over. for now, it is over now this time and i truly believe i despise. oh, that's happened, you know. i believe that we have a chance to have peace now because our meeting is also, i mean,

he's finally free of this. you know it will this up process or professional positive by counseling and more so read it to turn. okay. arson. let me ask you, i see that you want to react. i will let you do that. but i also want to ask you, do you think there was a chance now for a formal piece agreement? and i'll get to that. just 2 or 3 remarks on what has been said. i will actually agree with our as anybody trying to get it, it's all there for you right now because you got ready to farming using corner box . so now people no problem like stalling was saying. so in that respect, of course, it's all over for you. but i think in the long run, it's not all there. and it's actually a really, really bad thing because my personal help was kind of a hard me inside the a true dialogue possibility between car behind me is another bunch on on say about johnny's could be a good start for the long drawn longer on for i mean those are about johnny di. look, i'll refer to a couple of things that has been said also inviting me suprised. yes. i mean mention in good cop uh massacres during the 1st floor. yes,

there has been more crimes, but i want to remind you and talking about not having any history of ethnic cleansing. i mean we had 350000 army is living, you know there, but during this i'll get there. where are those people? by clogging, ask, you know, about the being assumed guy started unions. the 1st massacre and attack against army as, as we, as you all know, was in 1988 during the soviet there when some guy thought means were harassed and attacked. and the full grown seeing, bucko, so these were all fact, so if this is not ethnic cleansing, i don't know what he's now talking about the possible peace treaty. and i think right now on the, on october 5th. so we'll be meeting the 5 on 5 party meetings. i mean, you know, i was there by john and 3 european states including european union. i don't know, i have, i mean we don't have high hopes for coming up with, with something true as, as we're seeing that people are being arrested, being caught up proper and not going on right now. so i think one of the key key elements for this would be, is showing a good wheel and not actually arresting people and handling is. and i think my

understanding of my feeling is that we're giving a deadline until october 1st. whoever leaves leaves wherever stays, are going to be handled differently and the massive arrest, including that of the former officials of carl buckles, never know car about them. i know as was, is not actually helping. and you kind of is treaty, we all want a peace treaty, but a peace treaty can only be viable if it actually is inclusive and takes all sides in old parties into account, rather than one part coming. when we is only in any way possible, indicate if we have a situation that is different from now, matthew are send a reaction to some of your remarks and the guy just give me a moment. let me ask matthew here because i want to get his reaction to what arson was just saying or seem to put a question to you about some remarks you made about ethnic cleansing. did you want to respond? i didn't say anything about ethnic cleansing. i never use the phrase and i think it's a loaded term that it can be used by different people to suit whatever agenda they may have. all i said was that there were $800000.00 or by johnny's,

i chose the word displaced and there were master. and i said on both sides with regard though, just to, to athens points. what was the point about arresting officials with a former car box separatist regime that's kind of for the course and international law? i mean, look at spain barely sheet hers of the cuts alone, separatist movement who are in prison right there in jail. it is not okay under law, but your international law to lead a separatist movement, there are consequences. and that consequence came. the armenian troops were illegally also by johnny territory last time. arson said, well, there were no arm armenian troops and car box. and since 202021, that was the official armenian line, but i don't think that's true because there are been corpses of armenian soldiers that have been now returned to armenia. so the soldiers were there. this was a festering wound that was working against even prime minister, pushing young wants a peace agreement. i'm convinced he does,

but he was unable to move as long as there was this toxic political environment, but still there, by the way, it's still there. there is not a vehicle to implement the agenda of some of the, the most toxic of the thinking, meaning the car back up to where it is. and the gar, we literally have about a minute and a half. uh, please keep that in mind. please go ahead. yeah. okay. yeah. well, it's, uh, again, i would like to say that we have pens, thousands army and military service, and another advisor initiated already, you know, $5000.00 people. so part of them the, the people that are leaving the armenian military, that they're serving illegal alone as it by jenny as well. and what happened the other by john said that you are free to go weeks. we didn't do anything. so then they are leaving now, but when you say the other one is keeping someone home, do you mean? do you mean by young people like about the young? yes, he's in laborious criminal. you know, before the bar then yeah. is due to the because the single life of the farm that army and die us little girl to a, to the region bulls to are me. and those are by down, you know, he's,

the money longer from russia will came out of nowhere to cut a box and started doing some lots of things to m p to what's the goal, the whole process, you know, and he's also the person from the book sections and you cry and he's a criminal guy. you know that the stuff is being there. the only those sp i am not very unique, aren't they? are, i'm sorry, but we're just about to run out of time. we're just about to run our time. arson, we, we have about 30 seconds left. please go ahead, please keep your remarks brief. thank you. i will a including bog down everyone else there should be a process of reconciliation. yes, we will argue about that done as an armenian citizen, whose political affairs is not something i want to discuss. nor do i want to discuss the other officials. i just want to say there were no 10000 people even caught off. there could have been some arguments for marvin you who wish to left there who are leaving now. but these are not facts and you haven't been able to prove that. now how you're going to attend the adoption because there's a school info is conferred by oh, the side. not likely. all right, all right,

so i'm sorry, everybody says that we, we have, we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests in the gar up are the right matching prices and our since product. yeah. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just share a. com. i prefer the discussion, go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. you can also during the conversation on x r handle is at a j inside story. for me, i'm how much enrollment a whole thing here, bye for now the the,

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