we follow that treacherous journey as they walk through extreme condition together and transport this dangerous, but precious cargo risk in your phone. you on al jazeera, it's been disputed for decades, but they're going to car box is now under, as they're by john's control. as thousands of armenian sleep itself declared, government says it will cease to exist. so what does the future hold for the region? and what will happen to with separatist movement? this is inside store the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much room is there by john is now in full control in the corner of care about that appears to mark the end of decades of

fighting over the disputed enclave armenia. and as everybody john has struggled for control of the region for decades. it's internationally recognized as part of his or by john, but his home to a large population of ethnic, armenians fearing reprisals. they're now fleeing across the border. and so what will become of them? and could this have implications for separate struggles elsewhere and the world will go to a panel in just a moment, but 1st for them on has this report tens of thousands of refugees are leaving the place they want schools, home, ethnic armenian to say they no longer feel safe. now. the gore, new car box is entirely under the control of as or by shot armenian prime minister nichol passion. yon says what is happening is a crime against humanity. doesn't have auto above the whole 10 years. in a few days, there will be no more armenians left. no go, no cordova does an act of ethnic cleansing and depriving people of their homeland. this was something they had been warning the international community about for

a long time. so, as for our media, are proud to now is to receive our brothers and sisters to ported from their going to cordova as careful as possible to provide their needs earlier this month. as or by john lloyd, a lightning attack on ethic, carmine, and forces that control part of the core new car back region. within 24 hours. these areas we're in control. the corner car back has long been internationally recognized as part of as or by john. but it's home to a large population of ethnic armenians, azerbaijan and armenia had been fighting over it for decades. but this time armenia did not step in to protect its people there. the hazard by john no plans to fully integrate in a corner car back into its territory and says, the army needs living there. have nothing to fear. you're the one who just added to . it seems clear that the people living in a car about region, all citizens of azerbaijan, regardless of the missiles a. so they safety security i'm rights would be insured by the state of us by john i

am sure that the integration process of the medium people living in carried back to as the by johnny society will be successful. the corner car box, or medium separate as leader has been arrested, that's despite the cease fire deal, and which azerbaijan promised to allow those who laid down arms to leave. the self declared or public effectively no longer exists. the face of new garner car back decided by force of arms. and for those refugees who were able to cross the border comes to challenge the building a new life fence mullin for inside story the . all right, let's go ahead and bring our guests in. buck who is new, gar, are put that i. e, a member of is everybody's john's parliament and assemble is matthew prizes, a former us mediator and then a go on a car back conflict. and joining us from here on is our since for a john former foreign policy advisor to the armenian prime minister,

nicole pushing them a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story . make our, let me start with you today. they're going to car box is now under, as are by john's control. does that mean that the armenia is everybody's on fight for and going a car box is finally over. well, thank you very much for having me. first of all, we don't have such a. we don't have such a place like not going to cut about the regionally, school cut off no more than these that russian dirt which was used previously. but the region this cold cut off. so well of hopefully yes, we are really a cheese to have a long lasting piece with our me because the whole think was around this patricia team was ok, patient apart, me is a division of the junk lands by armenia. and then the pop of the reason being there . so now the situation is that the disarmament of armenian millet punching caught above, continues. so that's it. but then the army collected all the weapons and munitions and we discovered like munitions every day. and this is really shocking for 30

years. this area was agrees on was a low list on and hopefully now our main goal is to integrate uh, armenians of cut off. and hopefully these whole, you know, meet with tons and to meet with re agenda is closed because we are really keen to have peace in our region. i would like just to mention that food and all these period of time was originally army was a, was extremely close, as you know was targeting only me that the recipient is and, and for us, it was meeting important enough not to create any kind of planning and panic amongst people and among the settlements. so we've been trying to do our best to have um like um, the steps of integration process. like we had regularly we have dialogue with our armenia. so i was caught up with a representative this week sent, we sent supplies to them with an medicines was on fire, my electricity's to be supplied now with some fuel. so we have trying to make sure

that the old unnecessary things and all of the necessary steps are done for civilians. in the meantime, we are trying to make sure that we are cleaning these, going from weapons from new nations for mines, you know, from oldest illegal matters. that's what was there for many years. and um, well the thing is that the symbol this, the, i'm sorry to, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but let me, let me, let me just ask you about something you, you mentioned because you said something that we've heard from other government officials, which is that this region will be re integrated um, but the government of everybody on has not explained how it would be re integrated . what are the plans for re integration? well i think the integration plans are uh, more or less they are. we are discussing it with you, presented the sofa of armenia, is of quite a buck we already have 4 adults we did for them where they can apply and to become citizens. so positive by jump, those that want to stay. but we want to uh, to clean this on to have a better infrastructure for them to have

a better leading condition. because and the legal base for us is constitution deposited by john. they will have older rights as all the other ethnic groups are leaving. you know, everybody on house because we have many ethnic groups. we have jews, we have russians, we have george's, we have products, we have totally sleet case. so all of them these peacefully cool exist together in the respect and dignity. so this is what we offer to armenians will cut off because you get a g r, i'm sorry to interrupt you again, but i, i just want to ask you about another point. you're making, you're talking about uninsurance of rights, but the fact of the matter is that on the ground, you have thousands of people, thousands of ethnic armenians that are fleeing. and they are saying that they don't believe that they are safe. they say they do not believe these guarantees that have been made about their safety. so how do you react to that as well? so it's obviously, you know, they've been boy and brain worked for certain years. the whole ideology was around other identities and armenia being incompatible and i'm not being sarcastic. this

is the literally what they are president, coach area. and we're seeing. and these ideology was also promoted by will be by dia, photo, by all the armenians, politicians. why? because they didn't want their goal was to next part deposited by john. they did whole i think it was, it was it on that. and now when we offered them to stay, when we are seeing that you, we've got a few older rights. you know what's happened, see if they lose or no money is dying, it shows that the whole propaganda was full stay and well, i think all of your support schools but from our sites and why would the most of them when they, um, when they go to get him on. they are being interviewed by media. they are and one being all said, did you have any problems? they said no, we didn't, we've been told to leave. so with the leaders. so i thought i'd just leave those, this criminal, they told police people to leave in the reality. they are not leaving because of the situation on the ground. they are leaving because of some, something someone told them or most of their theater, but not because something happened to them on the ground. they've been hostages of this criminal support says,

and they've been brain most by them. of course they now a, they didn't see anything else. we are offering them a better life. i'm telling you and our government, these very keen, we're all sending them a better life. we're all sending them to stay and to become a good by just citizen. then i must also say that, you know, want to swim along the gym as they are expelled from their homes. they, they, they, you know, what was the some, what they offer to us. you either leave or you die. the 1000000 people that expelled from their phones so 2 years ago and they moved also to pull back and we want this integration to happen and we got it. so we go through the, i mean time, i need to go now to ours and ours, and i know you want to jump in. i see that you're reacting a lot to what you got is saying. one of the things i want to ask you about is the fact that the government and is there by john, is saying that ethnic armenians have nothing to fear, that they will be re integrated. first of all, what is your reaction to that? thanks for having me. what else started with these facts speak for themselves. i

mean, as you mentioned, as dr. hoss has been saying over 90000 people fled not go into a car box during the last 3 days. if the life they were going to get the nose everybody on was going to is to be so great. why would they want to leave? i mean, come on talking about the criminal regime. you're talking to the administration level of nutrition, 3rd time today and you have law. why are you talking to criminals? if they're criminal, you're arresting, picking, and choosing whoever you want. right now people are coming with fears and even on the board or you're stopping them and she mediating them with your media right now as we speak, you're talking about the munitions weapons. no, but panic amongst the people you failed on that. you failed on providing these people any opportunity to ever think about leaving, you know, sorry about the let alone the situation with human rights in your own country. freedom, house reports are talking about those are about you on being and that's pretty country and even the car about being partially free. you have what you're talking

about. i don't, i is the property which has occupied part of the by just the land because you're speaking about demographics. the country would never do that and you know what? you got, you know, they, most of them have armenia passport. they've got me just haven't much less because i'm a guy. let's please let our son finishes point. we will come back to you shortly. arson, please go ahead and keep the show just for you in the garden. no problem. you can also do it on your facebook like this is a show without just the right and i would respect, i respected your talk and i would expect the same from your thank you. so the situation on the ground right now is disastrous. people are losing their head, lost their homes, they had to leave last 2nd, leaving everything behind. and the only place they could go was that, i mean, yeah, because they are afraid. not just because of the situation in your own country. what i mean with no political opponents to the existing government with no free journalism and freedom of speech, let alone but thing that decides the large scale of armeno for the, the hatred towards armenians. how do you imagine these people leaving you now?

they're about john. within the other, by johnny, we do a constitution if you are all citizens that deprived the basic right. so right now what we're seeing is what you have done is that the plan to the continued plan of doing the ethnic cleansing. it's a clear ethnic cleansing policy officer about john that has been in place for a long time. and right now you've got what you wanted. so i don't know we're going to populate those places with probably your own people. i. i don't want to talk of our so far, so let me, let me, let me just ask you. what can you, how can i like to do it just for me after zation and i remember we got life. i will give you a moment to reply. i need to ask or send another question your are. so i want to ask you about how our media is going to be able to handle, helping the, the ethnic armenians who are fleeing the going to car back. what are the plans in place for that? and that's a very good question. and right now, as we're seeing on the border, we have a medical uh, personal pay. so now we have a lot of, i mean,

basic food because these people have been deprived off of uh, basic supplies for the last 9 months. uh right now we're trying to sort of the largest scheme is to absorb that mean heart media in different regions and towels. today as we were following the records, some of the people are staying in the nearby region. the sunni, some are being dispersed in different parts of the country. a lot of them ended up in europe on right now. the government is saying that it has enough housing capacity. however, i'm sure this is temporary. these people have been replaced this place from their policies, and this is a ad for a small country like ours, 800000 people in the country of 3000000 is going to be a huge deal. but i'm, i'm so sure that there's too many types of support is going to come from the international community. but the government so far. i mean, yeah, so parties handling it. we'll see what comes into short term and in the long run, matthew, let me ask you your opinion on what happens going forward. what is the future hold

for the region and also what kind of implications could all this hold for separate struggles in the region and in other parts of the world as well. first of all, i mean the main focal point of course is going to be with both guests. so with our sending me god are talking about the disposition of these people who have left their homes. so that's one of the most traumatic experiences in any person's life. right, and they're leaving everything behind. it's true that the, the government of houser by john for all my fears, involved with a kind of conflict, had embraced the idea that the armenians hopefully would stay. and as or by johnny's would refer to their homes, return to their homes, are the ones that have been displaced? that seems unrealistic right now, but hopefully looking forward, we will see us or by john deliver. uh, you know, the, as i think we talked about before, revenge is one of the most powerful negative motivators in the, in, in our human being. and, you know, there are there more of those expulsions make, are talked about 800000. she said

a 1000000 that some of them were killed. there was a massacre to place culturally. and so it's, it's, it's understandable that the armenian side would think, oh my god, there might be revenge, but there isn't to yet. there is indeed, i don't hear that hatred announcer by johnny society, by the way, some corners there are extremes, says there are in armenia. but in general, the government of us are by john. they're saying something amazing it saying, come on, let's try to do this together. we hope you'll stay and, and let's go forward to a peace treaty. so the next thing i think is going to happen is a peace treaty president that we have clearly wants it also by john is now the status quo power. prime minister pushing the i'm clearly wants a peace treaty, but he's being reviled for that back intermediate at because he's seen as not having supported the car box here mediums and somehow being soft and being not used . i do think there's going to be a pc though. within months, even though it won't be popular or needed yet, the other impact is on russia. russia. uh, you'll probably a prime minister pushing on already said that russia is no longer

a protector of our media. that this was before. last week's military activities. and put in is various and so i think there's going to be a question coming up quickly about armenia is political orientation is rushed is still going to play a role. and then also by john, i have to figure out whether he wants the russian peacekeepers to stay at matthew. since you're talking about russian peacekeepers and the russian role going forward, i want to ask you about, you know, from your perspective is what we've seen happen in the go in a car box. is this pointing to the fact that in a part of the world where russia has long been sort of in charge, that the balance of power is essentially changing? oh, a 100 percent. i mean look during the 2nd car by 4. so in the autumn of 2020 moscow was sending warnings to, to buck who not to push too far. you'll recall that as or by john stopped it's military operation. short of the capital step on the character from kennedy is he asked by john, just call it one size or by general coverage to shop at that time. moscow was

telling us or by john don't don't push it too far today. i don't think president lives paying much attention to president puts in. it's hard to imagine russia as having a legitimate role in, in peace making, given its invasion of ukraine not to mention invasion of georgia tech, you inpatients of ukraine. so i think the prestige of russia as a geo political player is terribly undermined, but it's still about what's going on. it's still really powerful and it's still right there on the border of us or by john. so i wouldn't say russia is no longer going to be a player, but you know, as john is charging its own destiny now to an extent that it never could be for any guy. i know you wanted to respond to some of what arson was saying earlier. please go ahead. uh, yeah. well, uh uh, just to be spoke to some ideas because i missed that our son was saying, lots of accusations. but let's put aside the motions and just see the fact the text

says that men's ones are by him. that ok, bye bye army. they are full for you and secure with the counselors, a loose are those and so far were documents confirming these and which were ignored by our media. so when, when he's talking about basically saying, i remember one thing that i want to tell you, you know, what was the justification of armeno side for the occupational form of the boss and surrounding region. they said that they wanted to prevent potential genocide. i wouldn't want to repeat that, so for that they have, it's spelled $1000000.00 as of identities come via pony. so in reality, either by just doesn't have any record of it cleaned it, but the media does auto media not only expelled all of it by chance for water media, but they also occupied doesn't. but generally lad's an expelled advice and just from their homes in other bridge. and we have all the other groups leading together . we don't have a record of ethnic cleansing and also let's use to them and o as in a correct way, you know, it cleans in good. someone is forced to leave when we are saying that we are offering them to stay and to become citizens of us that are by jobs. so this is not

a clean thing by default. please do not use a terminology like that. you know, because you are misleading people, do not me sleep international community. i mean, you know, so i managed to mislead mislead international community, not ninety's when it's in way that's our lives. now it is over and we really wants peace. we don't, we never had to go to queens towards armenia. we never had, we never had any problem with armenian sleeping in color, but it was, you know, sick, but i just jumped the, it was clean and those that came their brain most people's minds. and she kept them as hostages. now the beloved street, of course, is there they are to is whether they want to leave or whether they want to stay for them on our side we got on the, they are safe, is the, they say they will be beneficial for society, they will enjoy the right, as jews have, i don't know, let's these have thoughts have talked to the russians altogether, happy and they will be leaving in peace and digging. athena much better live, so the us that you for your, your dispute, you are disputing. now, the accusations that have been made about ethnic cleansing, the concerns about it,

i want to ask you about the fact that there are western governments that have been expressing alarm over the humanitarian situation right now. and many of them have started demanding access for international observers. to monitor or is there a bi john's treatment of the local population? is that something that is there by john would agree to as well? absolutely. both are still full. i see i see was always there. you know, i see. i see the russian military contingencies peacekeepers are there and now was there by john over to you in the agencies to come to see the play. so is so into discussion. i mean, you please in due course, it will happen. but you have to understand that these events is a heavily militarized zone. it is the only way of mis thompson. so if something happens, we won't be the special for that. it's a great zone. so we have to take care to pick the people coming cuz they are now, you know, now that we are in control, we will be able to bring people to show some things before the safety issue was there. and also, as i said, i see i see was always in place from our side of the immediate corporate. if we

have anything with the oldest sites, you know, we will. so we have, we want to cooperate with armenia as well, like there's a piece be on the table. and i will also to say that despite the fact that other breakdown has the ability to do minutes, you know, our home, we won the war. it was the old parts uh, piece street the to armenia and for 3 years we're going back and forth back and forth. army and prime minister is trying to do something he did for the nice other by just video integrity. but then he again started supporting support. they think our boss sending them, let us look, congratulations for a separate, just leasing one, whatever you know, but now it's over for now. it is over now this time and i truly believe the spies. oh, that's happened. you know, i believe that we have a chance to have peace now because our meeting is also who i mean, he's finally free of this. you know, it will this up process or professional positive by johnson and marcia made it to turn. okay. arson. let me ask you uh,

i see that you want to react. i will let you do that, but i also want to ask you, do you think there was a chance now for a formal piece agreement? so i'll get to that just to 3 remarks on what has been said. i will actually agree with our as anybody trying to get it, it's all there for you right now because you got ready to find me in using corner box. so now people, no problem like stalling was saying. so in that respect, of course it's all over for you, but i think in the long run it's not all there. and it's actually a really, really bad thing because my personal help was kind of a hard me inside the a true dialogue possibility between car behind me is i know there by john, i'll say about johnny's could be a good start for the long run, long run for i mean, those are about johnny di. look, i'll refer to a couple of things that has been said also invited me suprised. uh yes. i mean mentioning the cop uh, mastercard. during the 1st floor. yes, there has been more crimes. but i want to remind you and talking about not having any history of ethnic cleansing. i mean we had 350000 army is living, you know,

there, but on doing this, i'll get there. where are those people by clogging, ask you to about that. i mean, as soon as i started unions, the 1st massacre, an attack against, i mean is, as we, as you all know, was in 1988 during the soviet there, when some guy thought means were harassed and attacked and the full grown seemed bucko. so these were all fact, so if this is not ethnic cleansing, i don't know what he's now talking about the possible peace treaty. uh, i think right now on the, on october 5th. so we'll be meeting the 5 from 5 party meetings. i mean, yeah, i was there by john and 3 european states including european union. i don't know, i have, i mean we don't have high hopes for coming up with, with something true as, as we see that people are being arrested, being caught up properly in not going on right now. so i think one of the key key elements for this would be, is showing a good wheel and not actually arresting people and handling this. and i think my understanding of my feeling is that we're giving a deadline until october 1st. whoever leaves leaves wherever stays, are going to be handled differently and the massive arrest,

including that of the former officials of carl buckles, never know car about them. i know as was, is not actually helping. and you kind of a treaty, we all want a peace treaty, but a peace treaty can only be viable if it actually is inclusive and takes all sides and old parties into account, rather than one part coming into the we, we is only in any way possible to indicate if we have a situation that is different from now, matthew, are send a reaction to some of your remarks and the guy just give me a moment. let me ask matthew here because i want to get his reaction to what arson was just saying. arson, to put a question to you about some remarks you made about ethnic cleansing, did you wanna respond? as i didn't say anything about ethnic cleansing, i never use the phrase and i think it's a loaded term that it can be used by different people to suit whatever agenda they may have. all i said was that there were 800000 miles or by johnny's, i chose the word displaced and there were master. and i said on both sides with regard though, just to, to athens points. what was the point about arresting officials with

a former car box separatist regime? that's power for the course and international law. i mean, look at spain barely sheet hers of the cuts alone, separatist movement who are in prison right there in jail. it is not ok under law, so your international law to lead a separatist movement, there are consequences. and that consequence came. the armenian troops were illegally also by johnny territory. last time our son said, well, there were no arm armenian troops and car box. and since 202021, that was the official armenian line, but i don't think that's true because there are been corpses of armenian soldiers that have been now returned to armenia. so the soldiers were there. this was a festering wound that was working against even prime minister, pushing young wants a peace agreement. i'm convinced he does, but he was unable to move as long as there was this toxic political environment, but still there, by the way, it's still there. there's not a vehicle to implement the agenda of some of them, the most toxic of the thinking,

meaning the car back up to where it is and they got a we literally have about a minute and a half. uh, please keep that in mind. please go ahead. yeah. okay. yeah, well each uh again, i would like to say that we have 10000 army and military service man, another advisor i need to talk to, you know, fast 1000 people. so part of them the people that are leaving the armenian military, that they're serving illegal to another by jenny as well. and what happened, that's other by john said that you are free to go weeks. we didn't do anything so that they are leaving now. but when you say that otherwise known as keeping someone home during the day mean, but the young people liked about the young yes. season latoya as chris and the because the bar band yet is due to the 30 because the single license before the army and die us little girl to, to the region both to army and also by john, you know, he's the money loader from russia who came out of nowhere to cut a box and started doing so i'm lots of things to impede to oaks that go the whole process, you know, and he's also the person from the sections and you crave. he's

a criminal guy. you know that there's that as being there. so only those by another thing who you're gonna make are, i'm sorry, but we're just about to run out of time. we're just about to run our time. arson, we, we have about 30 seconds left. please go ahead, please keep your remarks brief. thank you. i will, uh, including bog down everyone else there should be a process of reconciliation. yes, we will argue about that. don't use an army and citizen, he's political affairs is not something i want to discuss, nor do i want to discuss the other officials. i just want to say there were no 10000 people even caught off. there could have been some ard meeting is forming a who is to lift that who are leaving now. but these are not facts and you haven't been able to prove that. now how you were going. so it hadn't the peacekeepers, east coast it was covered by all the side then. all right, all right. all right, so sorry everybody does that. we, we have, we have run out of time. so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all our guest new guard are for the right matching prices and our

since product. yeah. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just share a. com. i prefer the discussion, go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside storage. you can also turn the conversation on x r handle is at a g inside store for me and how much enrolled in the whole thing here, bye for now, the, the the, [000:00:00;00]

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