the, the deep sea mind, like the minerals needed for green energy transition in the 1st of 2 special reports. 101 east investigates what it means to the pacific ocean. on l g 0. what am i putting legitimize the wagner. the russian president has ordered a former commander of the mercenary force to take charge of volunteer units and ukraine. so how could put in profit from wagner fighters? and could they be integrated into the army? this is inside storage, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoying mercenaries from russia's wagner group are heading back to the front lines in ukraine. president vladimir putting this believe to a put a former wagner commander in charge of a force. there been a lot of questions about the group's future after it's liter. if can, if it goes in the field uprising against the kremlin, now, it seems as if wagner will continue to operate. but with a greater oversight from moscow, we'll go to our panel in a few moments. but 1st friend of mine has this report. and the wagner group seems to be under new management. russian president vladimir putin appear on television with wealth of mercenary groups, top commanders, he tasked andre atrocious, with organizing what he called the volunteer fighters on the front lines and ukraine. language is familiar with him. you'll start to deal with the formation of volunteer units that could perform various combat tasks, primarily in the zone of the special military operation. food is under pressure to

strengthen, rush is offensive, and ukraine in any way you can. the conflict is ground to a stalemate with either side, making significant gains and month. wagner mercenaries had previously played a vital role in the war, but the groups future has been on certain following the death of its leader. again, you pre goshen, the billing their business man was once a close ally of putting button june 11th and successful mutiny against the kremlin accusing military leaders of incompetence for goshen was killed in a plane crash. in august, western intelligence agencies say a bomb was on board. moscow denies this and any involvement in his death. in addition to ukraine, wagner fighters have an active in syria and several african countries assisting governments encounter a certain c operations. the kremlin is always refer to the mercenaries as a private force at night, direct responsibility for their actions. but this may be changing. the guten is now publicly issuing orders to the man who appears to be provoked in successor brushes

. deputy defense minister was also present at the meeting science of the kremlin may plan to exert more control over any new incarnation of the wagner group. fentenol head for inside story. the. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests joining me from moscow as possible. so i'll get an hour, an independent russian defense analyst and london is michael clark, visiting professor at the department of worst studies at kings college london. and in washington, d. see, is john ledner, an independent researcher with a special focus on conflict in africa and the author of a forthcoming book on the wagner group. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story problem. let me start with you today. what message is president put in sending to the world by appearing on television with andre throw ship. is this from your vantage point? a clear sign that the kremlin will be exerting more control over the group to hold the kremlin and present the fortune aspire to control the group or not the group at

last rest of it because they really need the price. there's a problem there. is there need it in the primarily on the economy and from prime protest. so most of the day are operations in the middle east, and that's really good to so yes, so that's what basically pushing was going from the entire time. the prices of the wagner price just sent me a match or the retreat it for boss. so there was a meeting in the crowd and one between pushing them to box another group leadership . and then she was also pressing the same thing as why she did was bad last year we just ship, it was bad battles. a bad thing, but you're good guys. use your binders. go and find for mother to rush. so yes, that's what they want. they want to know, but without this leadership,

now there is no way to ship this after this all worked out in this way and crash last month. and so now in charge the bottom, they're fighters and the under the operations and ask for the dues. and pablo of how easy or difficult will it be to fold the wagner group into the russian military. um, a lot of wagner fighters had had left the russian army in the past. and it doesn't seem that they would be too enthusiastic about the idea of being under the auspices of the defense ministry of what they actually want to fight alongside russian forces going forward. oh, some of the do sign contracts for the hi, rocky there on this be a contract walk now group, and that's a kind of loose organization. i mean that's by the, uh, it can expand these are, they have a big book, former veterans which they as a, they know

a good specialist. they can call them up when there's a money to be paid, then the mission to be accomplished. and this be done to her about the 1000 over to 1000, and these are the command structure, the boat. and they are so direct. but a lot of them are former military personnel not to rank just per know they were treat specifically because it didn't live child the jobs were running the rush of military. so they're kind of on this events. and up to now, their vast majority has been refusing this on bump transfer defense spent the sky just, it's like a substitute. if she don't want to deal with directors of defense ministry, there's a brush or if you, in the case or one of your own, and you can kind of deals through john, add to the board and meet me in june. many thought that the wagner group would be

folded into the russian ministry of defense based on present and pollutants remarks while i'm meeting with andre. atrocious. is that process now underway? is that what you think that we are seeing? yeah i, i agree with possible, i think that we, we are seeing that that process which is certainly taking some time i think i it's difficult right now to talk about exactly what that is going to look like. because i guess, as probably had said before, wagner, we can think of it much more as a contracting organization that it has far fewer permanent employees. and that has, as the whole mentioned, he's less of a context of the man with military experience, so they can recruit for specific missions. and when the contract is over, say a 2 year contract, a one year contract. so those fighters can go on to another organization,

they used to be in the past, but that it was difficult for them to go to another pnc and then come back to wagner. because the wagner was kind of a jealous organization and they could be blacklisted. but essentially they were free agents afterwards, and so i think but, but my regular thinking about control, what we have to look at is sort of the permanent staff and as far as the scene so far in africa and in syria and the same faces have largely stuck around which, which implies that they're continuing to work and they will likely fall under whatever this new structure will be. john, let me just check with you. when you say pmc, you're talking about private military companies, right? that's correct. yes. all right, i'm john. let me also ask you about the fact that the president put an order andre judge, you have to take charge of volunteer unit in ukraine. i'm how long do you think that process might take? i mean, what kind of timeline are we looking at?

and how much impact might that have on the ground in ukraine? i'm not sure exactly. on the timeline that that's probably difficult to, to tell. and, and i think it will very much depend on individuals who want to go back to go back to the front. i am showing that there are a decent amount of, of wagner fighters who do believe, obviously in the, in the war and ukraine and do want to return. there's also a number of fighters who probably have an experience box would prefer to be in the sea for conflicts and in africa as well and, and avoid ukraine. but i think ultimately we have to remember that uh, at least since, since and since about may 10th when, when pre goes into declare victory inbox move in hand to the city of fox movies in eastern ukraine over to the administrative defense monitor has not been on the front, it has all been participating in the war in ukraine. and so all the developments

that we've seen most recently, but ukraine is kind of offensive. and the russians doing their relatively effective job of holding on it. but it has come without the participation of wagner so. well, i think that certainly wagner represents a high degree of military talent, especially with a number of their commanders. and i'm hesitant to say that their re, entrance into the conflict will be a make or break for either ukrainian or russian. michael, how much pressure is president put in under this strength and rushes offensive, and ukraine are quite a lot. so the russian forces are stretched at the moment, holding their positions, but only just because they've got no operational reserve, so that having to take for it for one area of the front to put them to another. so 5 regiments of the v dvd able, and from the 7th, and the 76 divisions of already being transferred to the on a key front, which is the main battle front of the moment. and the hold of

a 42nd mechanized infantry, a down there as well. brigade doing a lot more fighting. so the russians have a mobile reserves. they are ready to reach out to troops and present coaching. he's hanging on for the winter. he's hanging onto the bad weather, trying not to lose very much territory. and then when the weather turns bad in about 4 to 6 weeks, then he hopes he could pick could recalibrate his strategy. after that, michael um, let me also ask you about the fact that, you know, for a long time the narrative that seemed to be emerging from the kremlin was that russia's government really had nothing to do with wagner. so is what we're seeing now about face, and if so, does this surprise you to? no, not adults. i mean, we will use it to me is lying completely when he said he pretty tight enough to know anything about wagner excited that they had no cut, no relationship to the criminal, then he's dying. he made it clear. i mean, this was a group that used to go to the credit intro with st metals,

even when he knew nothing about that apparently. and then um, in the teeth of the crew after the 24th of, of june. he was so angry he made it clear how much they paid voc no, no these contracts involved in the had and now he's not really using trying to pretend to to have there isn't formally parts of the whole machine. that's not to say that the company has control of, of automatically it didn't have, but it was, it was an instrument that was created in 20132014 as he found useful to use. and he's used to have a sense, so it's not, no surprise whatsoever. but he's saying what he now says, i mean, you know, nobody believed him then and, and we, i mean, he may not be telling the truth, but there's no guarantee of that either problem. let me ask you a version of the question i just asked michael um, for a long time the kremlin referred to the mercenaries as a private force. they had denied direct responsibility for wagner's actions. this is just no longer the case, right? oh, yes, excellent. losing probable denial ability because russian officials and president

bush and personally when there's something going wrong, worse than say would be or somewhere else that i don't know these people, these people are and then they go where they wish. and now we can say that this bear under the officer, so be russian defense ministry and the person that really isn't involved in a micro managing the command structure. wagner, the, or for her wagner search very much about, i mean, he can say that i don't tend to control them anymore. so yes, that's what that's, that's excuse as being besides a weight loss and problem earlier, john was talking about the fact that the wagner doesn't seem to be participating in any frontline battles at this stage in ukraine. i want to ask you about that. how much of a battle field role have wagner fighters had in ukraine? since buff mode was recaptured by them?

have any wagner mercenaries redeployed to the front line in eastern ukraine and joined the russian military there? well, they play the decisive role in the blood bass of buffalo done before the trip. they are very vicious battlefield fighters, well trained and apparently, well not motivated natur. the but, but they were withdrawn for recuperation and then there was the big trip kind of probably being a pre gordon and then the top brass of the russian metal actually. so as a group, they're not at the front, but i do a further number of individual 5 dentist who did actually signed contracts for the defense ministry after wagner was withdrawn as being a kindly reported to being on the front line. but there were talking about maybe

here several 100. not that much. john in the short term. does this move benefit president putting? does it ultimately put him in a stronger position? hi it, i think it does in terms of the overall narrative, which the kremlin is trying to put for the wagner is back under the control of the russian government. it's now under the control of the administrative defense. but i think we have to remember, you know, what, what do we mean by control in the 1st place? at the end of the day, the way the system has historically function that is that then there's also a very little guidance from the center from putting himself. and this gives quite a lot of freedom and for a powerful individuals and all of corporate interest to go out and pursue a profit, making activities, framing it as foreign policy. and as long as they can kind of frame it within

process, national interest and the greater narrative of russia is a great power that there's really no contradiction in terms of them also making money out of the venture as well. and so i think what we're seeing right now is an effort to, to recreate the narrative that, that wagner is under the control by putting a few people kind of in, in the top positions and, and in place. but that doesn't necessarily mean that on the ground in the central african republic, on the ground in molly, this sort of centralized but the centralized structure. uh what, what could kind of continued to run. not necessarily with the m, o d, you know, and everything that's going on. michael, we've spoken a lot already in this episode about wagner as role in ukraine, but in addition to ukraine, wagner fighters have also been active in several african countries assisting governments with counter insurgency. operations, is this something that's going to continue?

yes, and they'll develop a that's good. create to the sort of model for this. so wagner been involved in libya, support in general, have to who is a part of the breakaway uh, alternative government in libya based and then ben gauze. they've been doing that for a long time to begin the central african republic. that now very much involved in molly, essentially the mother, the, to him, all these terms. the western power is out through the french, out in protein wagner. new jerry is doing the same. so in the west, our, to throw in french, i am. but that you haven't yet, that's involved the fight to is it seems the they've been, some pressure is apparently on the border between some kind of fighters involved the fighters. not sure how to reach that is. but what we're talking have done is greg to this business model really way by they'll sign it with any dictator and they'll do the do it to you or whatever it is. even if it's genocide, that's fine. they don't really mind about that. they'll do any amount of dirty work in return for a share of the national wells, and that usually means mining concessions or sharing the state, the gold mines,

the gold mining in uh, somewhere like, uh, molly and the golden new jack. that'll be minerals. and in some cases, oil as well in the case of libya, and that's a business model which has been expanding. so the people who run breweries, they run insurance companies, travel companies. this is not just a military organization, it is actually a, a conglomerate, which confront size itself. and it's an arm of, of russian influence. although the russian government hasn't taken that much advantage of it so far, i think the expectation is that it will in the future. john, i saw you reacting to some what michael was saying that looked like you wanted to jump in, go ahead. you know, i, i mean, i think, i think, i think michael is right on point that we're going to continue to see a wagner operating hacker. because as he said, wagner has created a product, is created a market for, for its services. um and even i think if i were to suddenly disappear from africa,

we would likely see uh, you know, other countries with these kind of public private partnerships try to try to step in and fill the void. i think it's important to note that the bar is coming about at a very interesting time. now in africa, in general, where we've seen some very real uh, anti fresh sentiment, real kind of interest and advocacy for a further round of de quantization which has come at the expense of, of francis relationships with many of its former colonies. but at the same time, asking governments also don't have an alternative security partner to western interventions or, or united nations, these keeping emissions if for whatever reason they, they choose that they, they don't want those to be there. and so wagner has benefited as well from the structure as this actually the only alternative security partner,

no matter how group, okay, might be for african governments and wagner. also, michael had mentioned that you know, that there are tools russian influence. i would go a bit further and say that, you know, in africa rushes, the russian government's historical presence, at least since the cold war has been relatively minimal. this gave provision a lot of leaves to essentially go out there and create what she thought processed interest in africa should be problem. or what about you? what do you say uh, do you foresee that the wagner footprint in africa is going to expand, going forward? a sorry to bore some cold water on black birch? i believe that the bar above the reparation in africa is in deep trouble. if not, so can we do because a lot of there has being decapitated. there is no more. and if they last, yes, there are top military command me to give them to put in crash,

but the military structures more or less in fact, appreciate that sir. so the fighters are the, are the commanders are there? they're a financial cannot like to have being really wiped out. there's no precaution, there's no, i mean is there shouldn't because there's also guides and that's trash was the main logistics in the financial operator. so how that's going to work, i mean, there was, we, i mean, they operate just by the organized crime syndicate are, uh, the right jeremy, not a mexican drug protocol. i mean, every thing was that he didn't catch on time. everyone knew every pfizer news. if you'll get his money or his family to get his compensation without any bureaucracy, without any papers, yes, the bags of trash. and this josh still there was

a concessions on a gold and dime diamonds and so on. and that was transferred by pre borderline to dash, also dash from the gram i know, put together all work. and now so the defense ministry, which is a man and the rest of the addresses. uh uh, criminal center is on the do not press the over 2000000 uh employees. there's corruption there. sure. and that means you find those that are the one that goes on speaker that they're not getting their money in buying more info. they're getting it through the defense ministry that goes all way through why there's 2 russian better kinds of russian bags, and they need so much complaint in your brain that the money is not coming in time . so i don't see how this the wagner economic moto job be workable. they're the russian state bureaucracy, and i think it's good to all begin to. this is the grades and rather so john,

if we can just take a step back for a moment, i want to ask you about how important africa is both economically and politically, to russia, and whether or not russia actually tries to expand the wagner footprint in africa will the kremlin face challenges in keeping a strong presence in africa? and so, i mean, i think last i was saying earlier, wagner has, has been able to create what rushes interest in africa work because rushes interests in africa at the time are certainly not that great. it's not an important trade partner for, for russia. it doesn't factor significantly into rushes, the national security interest of never mentioned in russian military doctrine or, or political aspirations. and so i think for since the invasion of the full scale invasion of ukraine last year, i think that the narrative,

the geo political narrative of russia as a partner for africa has become more important, essentially, to show that russia is not on geo politically isolated to show people at home, show the show on the international stage that there are so many countries and want to do business with russia. i disagree. uh well, i guess my, i guess really a slightly with possible i. i agree that the ministry of defense wont be able to take over and absorb all the partners economic operations, which is why i am skeptical that administrative defense is necessarily going to try and take over. all of these operations are so much on validly a charismatic figure who, or who's ideas we're, we're always kind of keeping this organization together. but there's still a lot of operators at the level of my below and you know how work. and he's essentially created these companies that are going concerns. and i think it,

if we even take the, the analogy of, you know, a mexican cartel or, or something else along those lines. usually in the car codes as well. that if the head is taken out, the cartel still more and then kind of continues to, to go on in a different form. and so i think we have to be specific as well that perhaps well, what we're going to see in the future is not something that is exactly wagner as, as, as we've seen, uh, as we see it today. but wagner has gone through multiple multiple, it reads in its work history. and so the same issues of supply and demand, the fact that there's a lot of supply of russian mercenary, there's a demand. and there's still a lot of creative offering of entrepreneurial people within the organization with, within russia itself. i think points to the fact that a version of this will continue for quite some time. michael, uh, we only have a couple of minutes left. uh, but let me ask you,

um what president put in to have considered disbanding the wagner group? i asked that because i'm curious, get your thoughts on if that would have been a very risky move for him. just essentially having all those fighters on the loose and not within that group anymore. yeah, i mean, he was always fights for the problem after the attempted cool, whatever it was in, in june. but it's clear that the people who are not going to go in to the ordinary military, they use them for all sorts of reasons. they wouldn't, it was most likely they are the drifting to over at p. m. c, and have plenty of them around is 50, know 20 of them in ukraine itself. policies run by different russians that goes including shogun. with the defense minister, he's got his own content co runs radio which is quite like volume. so they were always going to drifting to other groups or keep them together. and one, i do keep them in by the routes where they train the batteries unami and use that as a base full. so their operation is that idea of a sort of faded little bit, but they were always there, always a dangerous solos. for pewter,

they only have to be 5 or $10000.00. but now that seems to be about 40000 of them about 800000 people cycle through wagner. so it's a pretty, it is actually a consequential group. 9, it's probably safe for him to try to keep it together with it, with a different role. rather than just let it dissolve and become a problem else with. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guess. follow feel again our michael clark and john black. now and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just you or dot com and prefer the discussion. go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also drive the conversation on x or handle is at age and side store for me and how many rooms room and a whole team here. bye for now the, the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the latest news as it breaks. libby is from the west of the cubs, the cub even echoes pulse lines to help dorski need in this particular divided

nation with detailed coverage. this hospital was full, shall during the rescue. operation time continues to be for those who lost the homes from around the world. and i just thought of georgia maloney's message is that this is a european border as well as an autonomy in one requiring a european solution a thought provoking ons, but the patient doesn't have time to wait for the extremely unfortunate script. there are no quick wins and events or research hard hitting interviews. you feel like america is less than the days of these days or is it just a different full? i think the democracy in the process facing realities. do you feel that the fraction is already starting the g 7 in the us on one side showing the end, the brakes on the other? i think there is a huge piece of that to happen via the story on talk to how does era respect to generating the street in central concave shows you how devastating the effects of

russian bombing has to be. i can see where 2 of the bullets hit there above my head . highest member demetrius military wanted him dead. the still manual beneath we were in a property on a road, costing out a 0 ingles proud recipients in new york festivals through the cost or of the year award, the $70.00 running the gunshots on the streets of a turkish capital ankara. after an explosion near the parliament building, the civil venue you're watching. ours is here a light from the also coming up today across the river as mud and difficult terrain . tens of thousands are making their way to the southern us border with countries