this is yeah, we're closing from the section. it's a race to flying people to the level we see in this gen and as in an in depth coverage to 0 is teens on the ground. bring you closer to the cost of the story. what am i putting legitimize the wagner girl, the russian president has ordered a former commander of the mercenary force to take charge of volunteer units and ukraine. so, how to put in profit from wagner fighters? and could they be integrated into the arm? this is inside store the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much enjoying mercenaries from russia's wagner group are heading back to the front lines in ukraine. president vladimir

putin is believed to have put a former wagner commander in charge of a force. there been a lot of questions about the groups future after it's leader, if getting a precaution, but have failed uprising against the kremlin. now, it seems as if wagner will continue to operate. but with a greater oversight from moscow will go to our panel in a few moments. but 1st friend of mine has this report. and the wagner group seems to be under new management. russian president vladimir putin appear on television with wealth of mercenary groups, top commanders. he tasked andre atrocious with organizing what he called the volunteer fighters on the front lines and ukraine languages. you'll start to deal with the formation of volunteer units that could perform various combat tasks, primarily in the zone of the special military operation. food is under pressure to strengthen rushes offensive, and ukraine in any way you can call take this ground, to a stalemate with either side, making significant gains in month. wagner mercenaries had previously played

a vital role in the war, but the groups future has been on certain following the death of its leader. again, you pre goshen, the billing their business man was once a close l i a put in button june. he wasn't unsuccessful. mutiny against the kremlin, accusing military leaders of incompetence for gods and was killed in a plane crash. in august, western intelligence agency say a bomb was on board. moscow denies this and any involvement and his death. in addition to ukraine, wagner fighters have an active in syria and several african countries assisting governments encounter a certain c operations. the kremlin is always referred the mercenaries as a private force at night, direct responsibility for their actions. but this may be changing the boot and is now publicly issuing orders to the man who appears to be provoked in successor brushes. deputy defense minister was also present at the meeting science of the kremlin may plan to exert more control over any new incarnation of the wagner group

. benton monahan for inside story the. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests. joining me from moscow as possible, so i'll get an hour, an independent russian defense analyst and london is michael clark, visiting professor at the department of worst studies at kings college london. and in washington, d. see, is john ledner, an independent researcher with a special focus on conflict in africa and the author of a forthcoming book on the wagner group. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story problem. let me start with you today. what message is president put in sending to the world by appearing on television with andre throw ship. is this from your vantage point? a clear sign that the kremlin will be exerting more control over the group of all the kremlin and present the fortune aspire to control the group or not the group of last rest of it because big, we're really need the price. there's

a problem there. is there need this in the, primarily on the it printed in front rod, but also most of the day or operations in middle eastern that's really good to so yes, so that's what basically pushing was going from the been kind of find the prices of the partner prices sent me a match or the retrieve it from boss. so there was a meeting in the crime one between push in the box, another group leadership. and then she was also pressing the same thing as why she did was bad. but here we just ship, it was bad, bad, a bad thing. but you're good guys, you should find is go and find square root mother to rush. so this, that's what they want. they want to know, but without this, we just ship. now there is no way to ship this after this all worked out in this way and crash last month. and so now in charge the bottom there 5

years under the default variations in africa and the meadows, and puddle up. how easy or difficult will it be to fold the wagner group into the russian military. um, a lot of wagner fighters had had left the russian army in the past. and it doesn't seem that they would be too enthusiastic about the idea of being under the auspices of the defense ministry of what they actually want to fight alongside. russian forces going forward. oh some the signed contracts, but they are hi, rocky, they're kind of the uh, a contract walk now group and that's a kind of loose organization. i mean that's like, uh, uh it's been expired. these are where they have a big book. former veterans which they as, as they know, are good specialists. they can call them up when there's a money to be paid, then the mission to be accomplished. and there's begun to her about the 1000 over

to 1000. and these are the command structure a bow, and they are so direct, but a lot of them are former military person now not to rank just or no. they were treat specifically because it didn't 5 child the job was, were running the russian military. so they're kind of on this events and up to now, they're vast majority has been refusing this on bump transfer defense spent this time just it's like a substitute. if she don't want to direct the defense ministry is a garage or if you're not the case or one of your own. and you can kind of deal with john, add to the board and meet me in june. many thought that the wagner group would be folded into the russian ministry of defense based on present important remarks while i'm meeting with andre atrocious. is that process now underway?

is that what you think that we are seeing? yeah. hey, i agree with possible. i think that we, we are seeing that, that process which is certainly taking some time. i think i the way it's difficult right now to talk about exactly what that is going to look like. because i guess, as probably had said before, wagner, we can think of it much more as a contracting organization that it has far fewer permanent employees. and that has a whole mention. he's less of a contacts, a man with military experience so they can recruit for specific missions. and when the contract is over, say, a 2 year contract of one year contract. so those fighters can go on to another organization. they used to be in the past, but that it was difficult for them to go to another p. m. c. and then come back to wagner because the wagner was kind of

a jealous organization and they could be blacklisted. but essentially they were free agents afterwards. and so i think but, but my regular thinking about control, what we have to look at is sort of the permanent staff and as far as the scene so far and have her come and in syria and the same faces have largely stuck around which, which implies that they're continuing to work and they will likely fall under whatever this new structure will be. john, let me just check with you. when you say pmc, you're talking about private military companies, right? that's correct. yes. all right, i'm john. let me also ask you about the fact that the president put an order andre troje. you have to take charge of volunteer unit in ukraine. i'm. how long do you think that process might take? i mean, what kind of timeline are we looking at? and how much impact might that have on the ground in ukraine? i'm not sure exactly. on the timeline that that's probably difficult

to, to tell. and, and i think it will very much depend on individuals who want to go back to go back to the front. i am sure that there are a decent amount of, of wagner fighters who do believe, obviously in the, in the war and ukraine and do want to return. there's also a number of fighters to probably have an experience thought my would prefer to be in a safer complex and in africa as well and avoid ukraine. but i think ultimately we have to remember that uh, at least since, since and since about may 10th when, when pre goes and declare victory inbox move in hand to the city of fox movies in eastern ukraine over to the administrative defense monitor has not been on the front, it has all been participating in the war, ukraine. and so all the developments that we've seen most recently, but ukraine, it's kind of defensive. and the russians doing their relatively effective job of

holding on it buried has come without the participation of wagner. so, well, i think that certainly wagner represents a high degree of military talent, especially with a number of their commanders. and i'm hesitant to say that their re, entrance into the conflict will be a make or break for the ukrainian or russian. michael, how much pressure is president put in under his strength and rushes offensive and ukraine quite a lot. so the russian forces are stretched at the moment. they are holding their positions, but only just because they've got no operational reserve. so that having to take for it for one area of the front to put them to another. so 5 regiments of the v dvd able, and from the 7th, and the 76 divisions of already being transferred to the on a key front, which is the main battlefront at the moment. and the hold of the 42nd mechanized infantry a down there as well. brigade doing a lot more fighting. so the russians have a mobile reserves. they are ready to reach out to the troops and president putin is

hanging on for the winter. he's hanging onto the bad weather, trying not to lose very much territory. and then when the weather turns bad in about 4 to 6 weeks, then he hopes he could pick could recalibrate his strategy. after that, michael, let me also ask you about the fact that, you know, for a long time, the narrative that seemed to be emerging from the kremlin was that russia's government really had nothing to do with wagner. so is what we're seeing now about face. and if so, does this surprise you to? no, not adults. i mean, we will use it to me is lying completely when he said he pretty tight enough to know anything about wagner excited that they had no cut, no relationship to the kremlin, then he's dying. he made it clear, i mean this was a group that used to go to the pregnant, to receive metals, even when he knew nothing about that apparently. and then um, in the teeth of the crew after the 24th of, of june. he was so angry, he made it clear how much they've paid wagner and all these contracts involved and

it had. and now he's not really even trying to pretend that there isn't formally parts of the whole machine. that's not to say that the company has control of, of automatically it didn't have, but it was, it was an instrument that was created in 20132014 as he found useful to use. and he's used that have a sense, so it's not, no surprise whatsoever, that he's saying what he now says, i mean, you know, nobody believed him then and, and we, i mean, he may not be telling the truth, but there's no guarantee of that either part. but let me ask you a version of the question i just asked for, michael um, for a long time the kremlin referred to the mercenaries as a private force. they had denied direct responsibility for wagner. his actions, this is just no longer the case, right? oh yes, excellent, losing probable denial ability because russian officials and president bush are personally when there's something going wrong worse than say would be or somewhere else that i don't know these people,

these people are and then they go where they wish. and now we can say that this bear under the officer, so be russian defense ministry and the person that really isn't involved in a micro managing the command structure of the nurse or for her wagner search very much. i mean, he can say that i don't tend to control them anymore. so yes, that's what that's, that's excuse as being besides the weight loss and problem earlier, john was talking about the fact that the wagner doesn't seem to be participating in any frontline battles at this stage in ukraine. i want to ask you about that. how much of a battle field role have wagner fighters had in ukraine? since buff mode was recaptured by them? have any wagner mercenaries redeployed to the front line in eastern ukraine and joined the russian military there?

well, they play the decisive role in the blood bass of buffalo done before the trip. they are very vicious back. a few of the factors well trained and apparently well not motivated and that's are the bloodbath. uh, they were withdrawn for recuperation and then there was the big trip kind of complex being up regarding them, the top brass of the russian metal actually. so as a group, they're not at the front, but i do a 1st, a number of individual 5 dentist who did actually signed contracts for the defense ministry after wagner was withdrawn as being a kindly reported to being on the front line. but there were talking about maybe here several 100. not that much. john in the short term. does this move

benefit president putting? does it ultimately put him in a stronger position? hi it. i think it does in terms of the overall narrative which the criminal. i'm just trying to put for the wagner is back under the control of the russian government. it's now under the control of the administrative defense. but i think we have to remember, you know, what, what do we mean by control in the 1st place? at the end of the day, the way the system has historically function that is that there's also very little guidance from the center from proving himself. and this gives quite a lot of freedom and for a powerful individuals and all of the cartridge interest to go out and pursue a profit, making activities, framing it as foreign policy. and as long as they can kind of frame it within ross, as national interest in the greater narrative of russia is a great power. there's really no contradiction in terms of demo,

also making money out of the venture as well. and so i think what we're seeing right now, it is an effort to, to recreate the narrative that, that wagner is under the control by putting a few people kind of in, in the top positions and, and in place. but that doesn't necessarily mean that on the ground in the central african republic, on the ground in molly, this sort of centralized but the centralized structure. uh, what, what could kind of continued around, not necessarily with the m, o d, you know, and everything that's going on. michael, we've spoken a lot already in this episode about wagner is role in ukraine. but in addition to ukraine, wagner fighters have also been active and several african countries assisting governments with counter insurgency operations. is this something that's going to continue? yes, and they'll develop that. that's good. create to the southern model for this. so wagner been involved in libya, supporting general hafta who's

a part of the breakaway alternative government in libya based and then ben gauze. they've been doing that for a long time to begin the central african republic. that now very much involved in molly, essentially the mother, the, to him all these terms. a western power is out through the french, out in protein wagner at new jazz was doing the same. so in the west, our, to throw in french, i am. but that you haven't yet, that's involved to fight to is it seems that they've been, some pressure is apparently on the border between some outside of fighters involved the fighters. not sure how to reach that is but what we're talking have done is great to this business model really way by. they'll sign it with any dictator and they'll do the do it to you or whatever it is. even if it's genocide, that's fine. they don't really mind about that. they'll do any amount of dirty work in return for a share of the national wealth. and that usually means mining concessions or sharing the state, the gold mines, the gold mining in uh, somewhere like, uh, molly and uh, the golden new jack. that'll be minerals. and in some cases,

oil as well in the case of libya. and that's a business model which has been expanding. so the people who run breweries, they run insurance companies, travel companies. this is not just a military organization, it is actually a, a conglomerate, which confront shows itself. and it's an arm of, of russian influence. although the russian government hasn't taken that much advantage of it so far, i think the expectation is that it will in the future. john, i saw you reacting to some of what michael was saying that looked like you wanted to jump in. go ahead. you know, i mean, i think, i think i think michael is right on the point that we're going to continue to see uh wagner operate in africa because as he said, foreigner has created a product is created a market for, for its services. um, even i think if i were to suddenly disappear from africa, we would likely see uh, you know, other countries with these kind of look private partnerships try to try to step in

and fill the void. i think it's important to know that the bar is coming about at a very interesting time now in africa, in general, and where we've seen some very real and type fresh document, real kind of interest and advocacy for a further round of the colonization, which has come at the expense of, of francis relationships with many of its former colonies. but at the same time, asking governments also don't have an alternative security partner to, uh, western interventions or, or united nations peacekeeping missions. if for whatever reason they, they choose that they, they don't want those to be there. and so wagner has benefited as well from this structure as this actually the only alternative security partner, no matter how brutal it might be for asking governments and wagner also, michael had mentioned that you know,

that there are tools russian influence. i would go a bit further and say that, you know, in africa rushes and the russian governments historical presents, at least since the cold war has been relatively minimal. this gave provision a lot of leaves to essentially go out there and create what she thought processed interest in africa should be probably what about you? what do you say? do you foresee that the wagner footprint in africa is going to expand going forward? i'm sorry to pour some cold water on black birch. i believe that the bar of wagner operation in africa is in deep trouble. if not, so do we do because a lot of there has being decapitate. there is no more power. and if they last, yes, there are top military command me to get me in between trash, but the military structures more or less back. i appreciate that sir. so the fighters or the of the commanders are there. they're

a financial cannot like to have being really wiped out. there's no precaution, there's no, i mean is there shouldn't because there's also guides and that's trash was the main logistics in the financial operator. so how that's going to work? i mean, there was, we, i mean, they operate just by the organized crime syndicate are, uh, uh, where i can, i mean, uh, uh, uh, a mexican drug protocol. i need, every thing was, he didn't catch all the time. everyone knew every pfizer knows as you'll get his money or his family to get his compensation without any bureaucracy, without any papers, just the bags of trash and this guy, sure. there was a concessions on a gold and dime diamonds and so on. and that was transferred by pre borderline to

dash and also the best from the gram i know, put together all work. and now so the defense ministry, which is a man and the rest of the addresses. uh uh, criminal center. if the press the over 2000000 the employees, there's corruption there. sure. and that means you find those that are the one that goes on speaker that they're not getting their money in buying more info. they're getting into the defense ministry that goes all the way through to wires. do russian better kinds of russian banks and need so much complaints in ukraine, that the money is not coming in time? so i don't see how this the wagner economic moto job would be workable under the russian state bureaucracy. and i think it's good to begin to defend degrades, and rather, so john, if we can just take a step back for a moment, i want to ask you about how important africa is both economically and politically,

to russia. and whether or not russia actually tries to expand the wagner footprint in africa, will the kremlin face challenges in keeping a strong presence in africa. and so, i mean, i think last i was saying earlier, wagner has, has been able to create what rushes interest and africa weren't because rushes interests in africa at the time are certainly not that great. it's not an important trade partner for, for russia. it doesn't factor significantly into rushes, the national security interest of never mentioned in russian military doctrines or, or political aspirations. and so i think for since the invasion of the full scale invasion of ukraine last year, i think that the narrative, the geo political narrative of russia as a partner for africa has become more important, essentially, to show that russia is not g o politically isolated to show people at home show to

show on the international stage that there are so many countries and want to do business with russia. i disagree. uh well, i guess my, i guess really a slightly with possible. i agree that the ministry of defense won't be able to take over and absorb all the wagner is economic operations, which is why i'm skeptical that administrative defense is necessarily going to try and take over. all of these operations are still on validly a charismatic figure. who or who's ideas we're, we're always kind of keeping this organization together. but there are still a lot of operators at the level of my below and will know how work. and he's essentially created these companies that are going concerns. and i guess if we even take the, the analogy of, you know, a mexican cartel or, or something else along those lines, usually in the car codes as well,

then if the head is taken out of the cartel, so more and then kind of continues to, to go on in a different form and so i think we have to be specific as well that perhaps well, what we're going to see in the future is not something that is exactly wagner as, as, as we've seen, as we see it today. but wagner has gone through multiple, multiple areas in its work history. and so the same issues of supply and demand, the fact that there's a lot of supply of russian mercenary, there's a demand. and there's still a lot of creative offering of entrepreneurial people within the organization. with within russia itself, i think points to the fact that a version of this will continue for quite some time. michael, uh, we only have a couple of minutes left. uh, but let me ask you, um, what president put in have considered disbanding the wagner group. i asked that because i'm curious, get your thoughts on if that would have been

a very risky move for him. just essentially having all those fighters on the loose and not within that group anymore. yeah, i mean, it was always fights for the problem after the attempted cool. whatever it was in, in june. but it's clear that the people were not going to go into the ordinary miller trays. i use them for all sorts of reasons. they wouldn't. it was most likely they are the drifting to over at p. m season. have plenty of them around, is 15 or 20 of them in ukraine itself. pmc is run by different russians that goes including shogun. with the defense minister, he's got his own content co runs, right? which is quite like wagner. so they were always going to drifted into other groups or keep them together. and one idea of keep them in by the routes where they trained to better as you know me and use that as a base for. so the operations that i did was sort of faded a little bit, but they were always, there was a dangerous solos for pewter. they only have to be 5 or $10000.00. but now that seems to be about $40000.00 than a $100000.00 people cycle through wagner. so it's a pretty, it's a, it's actually a consequential group. 9. it's probably safer for him to try to keep it together

with a, with a different role. rather than just let it dissolve and become a problem else with. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guest follow. so again, our michael clark and john black now and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just ever. com. that's a further discussion. go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also turn the conversation on x or handle is at age and side store for me and how many rooms room and a whole team here. bye for now the, the, the,

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that's one of the biggest stains of the country as well as in not really. this is important to me in an unholy alliance. oh no, just here. the 0 venue in doha with your top stories analysis 0 a suicide bomber has detonated the device in the turkish capital ankara. the blast was followed by gunfire. outside the ministry of interior and parliament buildings, at least 2 police officers have been injured. the interior minister says to people who are responsible for the joe earlier to cut out the says, see that thanks to the determination of all security forces. the moment that the