to the policy could be a threat to the new president. it's very likely that wisdom waves of would seek to distance himself from the i mean in the interest of his own political kind of got because he, i mean, if you, i mean, is still interested in coming back to follow that. that would be the sort of a more rational thing from the point of view of from some ways comb turquoise was, is the made the most of these famous just off the coast of the main island today of to the elections. this tranquillity may not last long for the president elect, for like the face to bill and seize the months ahead. tony checking out is there a money sign is national de fireworks have returned to hong kong off the 5 years. use crowds lines both sides on victoria, but to see the 20 treatment and by with 10 of patients had been cancelled since 2019 because of major democracy purchased by the cause of 1910 demik. national de marks the founding of the people's republic of

the se, and these are the top stores. now, the carrier by reason of as a by zone is old, but does it almost all of it is 120000. i think a 1000000 population of fled to neighboring media as well as on the forces of taking the full control of ink life. and if big on installing road signs with new names or solid bins of 8 has more from contending a tens of thousands of people who lined up the square with all that was they could carry with them. a people who were in the cars were chewing up to leave outside and, and leave the city. but the people who were here were waiting for buses for their relatives, for others to come and take them with them as they did not believe the assurances that were given by the other by johnny government. that they would not be a prosecutor here in the town. center, if i go quiet,

you'd be able to have nothing there is absolutely no one who's left half the k. it has car without strikes targeting the suspected co this alms group in northern iraq after a suicide attack on a government building an n correct. kind of stone work as possible, p k. k has kind responsibility us present. joe biden says he's sick of partisan brinkman ships of the us government funding on friday, congress passed a temporary funding bill. last, just 45 days prevented the government shutdown issue with emerge again. and the messages run out. those all the headlines and he's continues here and i'll just say are that's off the coming of age story and the community fighting to push the heritage in an ever changing world thing on an ancient way to, to future generations. in an award winning documentary, i'll just say, well,

photos, a group of young men on the right to patsy's county in the most sorry, the ivory cousins, the sacred wood analogies. era of the united states constitution holds the separation of church and state as sacrosanct. it's a pillar of american democracy and a poor fast and besides entity. however, in recent years, has been an undercurrent of religious rhetoric and symbology, permeating political discourse. first and nationalism is a term you might have heard when the news or in speech is from some on the right. but what is it really? is it on the rise this week and, and upfront special, we take a closer look at 1st and nationalism and how it's affecting politics and civil rights in the united states. the joining us to discuss this is ampio butler,

chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania and author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america. amanda tyler, executive director of the baptist joint committee and contributing author to the christian nationalism and the january 6th insurrection report. and kristen do a professor of history at calvin university and author of jesus and john wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted of faith and fractured a nation, some provocative titles around here. it can be a thank you so much for joining me. i'm gonna start with you 1st, but the term kristin. nationalism has cropped up at various times and us history. and some of the argue it's had a consistent presence since the countries founding from connections to white supremacist groups like the k k k, to the more recent patriot front of christian nationalism is by no means a new phenomenon. uh, taking its history into account. how do you define christian nationalism as it is today? actually simply, i just defined it as people who believe that god created america for

a purpose that america is special. in other words, when you are a christian nationalist, you believe that god created america as a christian nation. first of all, 2nd, that white men who were the founders of this nation were also christian. and the 3rd that she entity is the most important religion of all. and that really flies in the face of a lot of things that the founders in the front of you know, all the founding documents. absolutely to arrive. disposition is about fascinating . one that i've never understood. absolutely, and i think, you know, one of the things that i find troubling about this is the 2 things. actually. one is the way in which they get it all wrong about the founders and the framers and things that they said. and what are documents, say in the declaration of independence and the constitution, you know, no religious tests, they believe in religious tests then and there's a big religious tested that about christianity. but at the same time, they don't want a lot of government, but they want a christian government. and so these are the things that i call the tensions within

christian nationalism about christian nationalism can't really get the story right . a 100 percent. and you know, for all of us around this table, we might have different iterations of what we think christian nationalism is. but i do thinking largest in very much in the history of this nation, how it was founded and why it was founded in everyone trying to put a divine sort of approbation about america. on top of everything. for some christian nationalism has that like a revival and really strong sense of 19 seventy's when he been jelic was on the right kind of align themselves with the republican party. presumably in an effort to kind of galvanized an anti liberal movement set uh take us through. what's happened over the last, oh my god, it's been 50 years. i didn't realize the 70s was 50 years ago. the, the last half century of what's happened and how the ideology has kind of evolved over time. and you're exactly right. so the idea that america, as a christian nation has been around for a very long time. but what we're talking about today,

the current kind of explosion of conversation around white christian nationalism really can be traced back to the 19 sixties and 19 seventies emerging in this cold war era. now just before that, you had a strong sense of patriotism, right? we had a common enemy in communism, and christian nationalism was often something that united americans together not just really not just right wing paula to exactly your kind of consensus era in the sixty's that starts to splinter. and we have the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, and the anti war movement. and that's why we see some of these core values of patriotism, of christian america, of gender traditionalism kind of come together in an oppositional movement. so that we have people who are holding to these values are doing so over against other americans, over against civil rights activists over against feminist liberals, anti war activists. right. and so becomes this kind of oppositional movement and allies with the modern republican party. and that's really this christian

nationalism that we are seeing today. but it has been brewing for a very long time in white, evan jellico spaces. right. and he had talked about kind of this mystical notion, right. this is an accurate understanding of our nation's past. it ignores a lot of our founding documents. they will talk about the midst of the separation of church and state. but this has been cultivated in these spaces for decades in sermons, in popular literature, in christian film. and so it is really pervasive, and we're really seeing that the fruits of those seeds very clearly today mean that christian nationalism and evangelical isn't austin, sort of conflated, particularly in the context of trump in the air of trump. what kind of followers are kind of all in the same mix, but many argue that these groups are actually not the same, that they're distinct. what specifically distinguishes christian nationalist from evangelicals. well,

i think it's important to note the christian nationalism in christian nationalism as an idea. ology is a problem for all of the country, and it's a problem for all iterations of christianity. so while it would be convenient to say this is totally aligns with this one expression of christianity. i don't think that's accurate. i think that christians from across from all the different denominations need to wrestle with chris christian nationalism and understand how that's different than christianity. i think that christian nationalism though can help explain quite evangelicals as a voting block, white evangelicals voted in such high numbers for trump, what makes them even jealous when even angelic as well? that's a, that's a 1000000 dollar question. yeah. but i think that it's become a term that's more about identity than about religion, especially for white evangelicals. and that's because they are voting in such locks, step for a figure, likes trump, and then now for trump acolytes who are running in this,

in this selection. so it is more about an identity that carries with it assumptions about nativism and authoritarianism. and patriarchy, then it does about a religion of christianity. so it's not a particular faith claim or a particular orientation, particular theological disposition or quote, okay. i think it's both about, i think increasingly we hear it as more of a political movement than a religious identity. and that's concerning friends from that. yeah, i agree with the credit, i would say it this way and i'm interested to hear what christine would say to you . i would say that it used to be the logical construct that late in kind of ideas. they came out of the 17th of 18th century what, what does it mean to be evans alcohol? you know, when we think of the word and galico with which is basically spread the gospel and the good news, right. this is how evans almost always thought of themselves. what we see now is evan chuckle is i'm being acquainted with politics. and so i've said before, i wrote an article back in 2012 about this, and i said that republicanism was

a new religion. and that this is a religion that had aligned itself with evans alcoholism. and i think the can explain something to me, the fascinating and confusing to me. if we say it's a political identity. yeah, we say it's rooted in a particular set of christian values around reading the good news, right? yeah. or i get there competing interpretations and ideas about what it means to be christian about what the good news is about the new testament about g, i get all of it right, but i can't imagine any iteration that makes sense and corresponds to top. and yet, even jessica's tie themselves to trump, if you are an evangelical of any sort, whether you are, even if you thought i would have thought of it as a left wing idiology, if you thought it was a right wing idiology, if you're a quarter point bible thumper, and you were, you know, i mean if you're a literalist, did you, i mean, there's no version of this thing that makes sense with trump presidency. his identity, his character, his history, his say a lot of these people pick 12,

somebody please up ma'am, saying i'd love to take my go. so are you right at some evans all calls will define themselves as a theological, as a group defined by their theology. and they'll talk about things like born again, experience and the authority of the scriptures and uh, the centrality of the cross of christ. right? this is how they will define themselves, at least their leader, as well as a cultural history. and while i was looking at the history i saw that didn't really hold together, it doesn't make sense because the vast majority of black protestants in this country, for example, could check off all those boxes. and they do not identify is angelica because it's very clean, even difficult. i didn't find them them either, right? most do not write sound, but some will claim them. but not actually, you know, they won't be in the same churches together or in the same organizations in many cases. and so i see evans alcoholism, largely as a cultural movement and a system of networks and alliances. so if you want to understand oven delica lism today, you have to look at the organizations at their, at christian publishing,

at the massive industries. it's a consumer culture our christian radio. and so it, it shares that, quote, unquote christian world view and a far and wide through this popular culture and through membership in these organizations. and that membership is police right. there are gatekeepers here. and, and it's those organizations that then unite with political organizations. and now the story a how do we get from this understanding of admin job wisdom to support of donald trump? that's where we have to bring in the politics and the power. because with in these communities, they have for half a century now cultivated this understanding that they are under threat, that they have to fight to restore christian america, and that the liberals are against them. everybody is so they need power. they need power in order to restore christian america and trump came in and he was the right guy for the job precisely because he was not constrained by traditional christian virtue. and he told them he would fight to protect christianity,

and they actually called him their alternate fighting champion. he was their warrior and he would be ruthless on their behalf to preserve their supremacy. exactly. and, and supremacy is the right word here because there's one more thing, dad, he was for white people, period. and so this is the thing that i get at in my book is that i want people understand that evans articles have always had problems about race. so you say racism is it is a feature, not a book. it's a feature of this in, you know, there's a one kind of history that we talk about it ever juggles, and that's great. abolition is a, you know, trying to get the vote. suffer is all these things, right? even have all of the civil rights movement, right? but there's another history about evan jungle is a separating because it's wanting to have slaves, southern baptists, k k, k who start the k, k, k. a pastor re, you know, we have what are we fighting against king because they are evil because they are

trying to, you serve the status quote. we see how this goes, right? so by the time we get the truck right, what are the we just had before? drop of blood. president brock who's saying obama, who to possibly be from america? who is, you know, you use syrup or who is why the tea party movement habits. and then to get donald trump and all of these people who are evan, joel coles, in 2016. you have a rise in people who vote for donald trump in 2020. but what studies have found one in particular, sorry, i'm forgetting the name that they said more people call themselves up and joel, because of what happened in 2016. not because they thought they believed in this particular kind of christianity. it's because they believed that m and joel cole is a mit white to them, and that is the core of all of this whiteness is imbedded in american. evan. joe, cool. if you could have black image uncles, you could have latino evan jungle. but why dublin gel clothes are the senate one,

not of everything they are yet. and so as a voting block, they are the people that they go for. and let me say this very clearly, because this is what you need to understand. why have a job is like, don't trust donald trump delivered donald trump delivered supreme court justices over 200. just this is donald trump delivered for them. she was there, deliver it from when we say deliberate, supreme court justices, we're talking about the justices who would overturn robi way. that's right. okay. and which was the thing that they have been fighting for for a very long time. and so he got those justices. he got those just as a sort of a lot of everything for them. so why wouldn't they go to the capital and fight for him? why wouldn't they go to the ballot box and fight for him? why wouldn't they believe that the election was a lot? because donald trump was ordained by god to be in that particular position. and so that's what evan joel calls think write down who are for donald trump. chris is in

your book using john wayne. you write that evangelical support for former president trump is the combination of evangelicals embrace of militant masculinity and the callous display of power at home and abroad. those are ideas that seemed again to be at odd with some of their fundamental faith claims to fund middle beliefs. um, how do you reconcile, how do they reconcile these things? do they attempt to reckon out? and i love you to wellness as well. i mean, how do they reconcile this stuff? yeah, i mean, they didn't seem to be when i 1st started this research, which was almost 20 years ago now actually i was, was looking at popular of indelicate books on masculinity and how to be a christian man. and this is a huge market, right? these books, some of them are selling in the millions. so vast market and people are men are studying these in churches and in small groups, what does it mean to be a christian man? while i read some of these, and i was surprised because there weren't a whole lot of bible verses in these books. instead,

they look for hollywood heroes. they look to mel gibson's william wallace from the movie braveheart or that's their favorite. they looked a cowboys and warriors and soldiers, and john wayne, right. and this not like jesus, not jesus, right? but then what they ended up doing is they transformed jesus, they transformed the jesus of the gospel into this warrior christ. now you can find some passages and revelation to work with them to build on, and then they, they make jesus and to this, like man on it with big muscles on tattoos, down his leg, charging into battle, wielding a bloody sword to slay his enemy. so when they're talking about following christ, right, that's the price that they're holding up, not the price to says, love your enemies, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek and put that sword away. and so there's the logical work actually being done to transform historic christian t change in the service of their own quest for power. amanda, you said the christian nationalism was a political ideology, not

a religious identity, as you've talked about here. but christian nationalism is distinguished from everyday political conservatism. why has this kind of nationalist ideology been attached to christianity in the us? in particular, there's always been this disconnect about who we say we are and who we really are. and so who we say we are as a country is the country that embraces religious freedom for all it's right there in our founding documents, no religious test and that there will are government will remain secular so that religion can flourish. but christian nationalism which privileges christianity and says, there is a special place for christians and american society has been running alongside these ideals all the way. and so i think it's just been there for people to seize upon and try to organize around. and there is cultural live legitimacy still to being a christian, there is a special place that seems and different in elective office. all of our presidents, for instance, of all profess christianity that even though true exactly,

is despite there being no religious test for public office. and so i, i think that we, we see this tension in our society right now. and so there's something still a culturally current about being a christian and professing christianity that provides cover for what is really become authoritarian action in, in our current contact. i want to drill down a little bit on this question about the kind of foundational documents of the united states and how they say there's no religious tests and how they establish a separation of church and state and said in the thomas jefferson. yeah, referred to this stablish ment clause in the 1st amendment. me as a wall of separation between religion and government or as we commonly call it again this separation of church and state. but christian nationalists seem to want to undermine this, which wouldn't be so weird if they weren't also brandishing the constitution constitutional rhetoric about freedom and democracy in liberty. yeah. how do they

reconcile this to me that mass messaging would be asking this? well, i think probably the question isn't, you know, how are they doing it? the question is doing it and, and they don't really care about that history, thomas jefferson, what does it has disney junior was going? i mean, this engine was absolutely disingenuous because as many people are on the table, there's lots of of, um, toms, that have been written about history from a very strange perspective. i a david barton who writes these histories that are not real histories about america and american religion. right. and so when john jefferson is writing to the church in danbury, connecticut, and saying, you know, they should be as well. there's no, we're not doing this right. they don't care that thomas jefferson had a koran. they don't care that, that garage is sitting right down the street and the see at the smithsonian. what they care about is that god made this a special nation. and so when you talk about this nation being special, those documents can read them how you want to read them,

because you don't read the same history that christian is teaching in her history class, or i'm teaching in american religion class. they're not reading that stuff. they are reading these kinds of made up homes. this is, this is a last elgin movement. and we have to think about christian nationalism as adults delta massage before time that never existed. nostalgia for time, that didn't exist at the beginning of this nation. why did people come here? they came here to escape, you know, ty, radical religion in england. they wanted to have religious freedom to do what they wanted to do. they were religious people. and now we see this being used as no, no, no, we need to have a state religion just like english. this is crazy, right? because you're doing exactly the thing that our founders and framers were with battle for. and so i think what we have to really understand about people who are embracing christian nationalism right now is that they may not get all the nuances around this table, right. they just hear this as another phrase in

a whole lot of phrases like make america great. again, american exceptionalism, the greatness of america that have been spewed out from different kinds of people through our history. kristin, some would argue that christian nationalism is gaining political clout. a number of politicians is like marjorie taylor, green. lauren, bowl bird and republican pennsylvania. gubernatorial candidate doug most are gonna have all been increasingly in the spotlight while towing the christian nationalism . light is christian nationalism. its influence on the rise, or is it a matter of these voices being louder and taking up more space in the political discourse? it's about it's about. and that's been something that we've seen really just in the last few months. initially when scholars a social scientist and so we're surfacing this and and saying this is kristen nationalism and, and it's authoritarian and anti democratic and it's all of these other things we saw inside christian spaces among those who are promoting christian nationalism

deny that it even existed and say that they are just smearing us for being patriots . and, and then within just weeks we saw how the rhetoric shift and we saw people like marjorie taylor green. come out and say yes, i'm a christian national as a national as learn bober and proud of it and, and not just that, but all christians ought to be christian nationalists. and then all christians are christian nationalists. amanda, we have seen the over turning over all the way to landmark federal ruling. the guaranteed the right to abortion, a wave of anti translate distillation government funding earmarked for religious education all. and it's kind of part of an alarming shift in policy and due to shared rulings tied to the far right going forward. how is christian nationalism going to affect the fundamental, i mean, really the basis of civil rights for people in united states? i think christian national lives and strikes at the very heart, a civil rights for all americans. i've said that christian nationalism is the single biggest threat today for religious freedom, for all,

because it cuts at against that core foundational ideas that are belonging in american society should never depend on how we worship, or how we identify religiously and christian nationalism tries to blow all of that up. and so one part of christian nationalism, of course, is the site that the united states should be declared a christian nation. it, very alarmingly. there was a new poll out. the majority of republicans believe that the united states should be declared a christian nation, even though a majority of republicans also know that that's unconstitutional. so, so they understand, that's why i don't believe that, that of course, those who most the spouse, christian nationalism really believe in the 1st amendment. they don't, they believe in a, a system of government that would privilege christianity. and then unfortunately is a fascinating given how mellow dramatically they have talked about. yes,

going into the middle east, how they need to tear down is law me, government. slavic states, how they've denounces lumnick nationalism and religious test. some other sorts of. and they're really saying we don't have a problem with states and religion and we just want our state not religion. i say, i think you got it. i think that's exactly right. that they have progress the of, of condemning religious nationalism on the world stage while trying to embrace it at home. but that's exactly what's happening. and i think in a post roll world, we will see attempts at religious laws being passed in the state legislatures. and at the same time, the us to print court and the last term, not only with the dobs decision, but also with really landmarks. decisions trying to destroy the wall between of separation between church and state. have under cut the legal protections and that, that could become a reality. i think this is incredibly concerning both for civil rights of all americans. and especially for those in our public schools. i'm really concerned

about christian nationalism and civil rights of our youngest neighbors. those in the public schools and, and for instance, if we might see more state sponsored religious exercise in the public schools as well as of course the attack on history being taught in the public schools. they would much rather teach the mythology of a christian nation. been a candid history of the united states, we could, we could literally into the schools with dinosaurs, the right of the curriculum, and we're going back to creation creation stories. well, i mean, i can't believe we're having this conversation, but we no longer have the legal protections or the support of the, of the united states supreme court and helping us to send off attacks like this. and so it's going to be up to those of us who are, who are concerned about person nationalism who don't want to see this is a religious state of who care about religious freedom for all people to stand up and hear to those foundational ideals. but what i think the 3 of you for an amazing conversation are you all right, that is our show upfront. we'll be back next week the

the the pump table on algae 0, trying to host the asian games with our students from across the region competing

and celebrating sports. rigorous debate, unflinching questions up front. come through the headlines to challenge conventional wisdom. u. k. prime minister. assume that it's expected to address these 1st party conferences leader with a general election looming and a waiver of strikes, the house, the broke house premier of a new series, exploring the implications of us and to boy, the 1st amendment, right, which is in liberia, to the post kind of incumbent president george way over come corruption allegations and keep the temp job up. tell you back on which is era in depth analysis of today's headlines, 1000000 euros to help students here address migration. is it going to ease the micro crisis to make it worse? informed opinions, we need more investors and more people that make the decision to embrace whom and frank assessments this balance between to toe and sound via shoals,

is truly important for the positive industry. sure. inside stored on out to 0. the of houses era gains exclusive access to the camera by reason of as a by john with a capital is a ghost town with nearly audits ethic on media and population. refugees. i was on them and job aids in the center of fund can be which was bustling with cars and people a few days ago. and now it's old and the carry johnston. this is all just here a lot from so i will. so coming up a perilous journey for a bet. so nice before the migraines set aside and see cuz risky, a tool to make their way to united states.