says molly cannot the sold and he'll have to keep his support as happy. one of movies as perches was to seek release with the prison. abdullah, you mean currently serving and 11 you present to him to corruption the well, you mean still cologne's, a lot of support has return to the policy. could be a threat to the new president. it's very likely that wisdom was, would seek to distance himself from. yeah, i mean, in the interest of his own political kind of. yeah, because he, i mean, if you, i mean, it's still interested in coming back to follow that. that would be the sort of more rational thing from the point of view of from some ways comb turquoise was that made the most of these famous just off the coast of the main island the day after the elections. this tranquillity may not last long for the president elect, like the face, turbulent, sees the months ahead. tony chung else's era, monday the

this is elsa 0. the headlines this our, the un says sexual violence is being used as a weapon of war and sedan, rape and sexual assault has become widespread as the army and parent military rapids support forces battle for control. more than a 130 cases have officially been reported, but rights activists say the real number is much higher. so huge fire has engulfed the security directorate building in the city of the smiley and northeastern egypt . the health industry is reporting at least 38 people have been injured. officials say the fire has now been contained houses 0. it has gained exclusive access to the largest city of the car, back region after it was recaptured by us or by john from ethnic armenians. more than a 100000 people living in the region have fled to neighboring armenia with only a small fraction remaining on a solid. binge of aid has more from home. kennedy, a tens of thousands of people who lined up the square with all that was they could

carry with them. people who were in the cars were chewing up to leave outside and, and leave the city. but people who are here or waiting for buses for their relatives, for others to come and take them with them as they did not believe the assurances that were given by the other by johnny government. that they would not be a prosecutor here in the town center. if i go quiet, you'd be able to hear nothing. there is absolutely no one who's left half of the un mission arrived in a car back region on sunday. it's the 1st time the u. n. gets access to the region and 3 decades. the team will assess the humanitarian need. this in an area that's been almost entirely emptied of its population. local ethnic armenian officials have dismissed the visit as a formality. they say that you as mission, has come to late. those are the headlines on alpha 0 or this. our up next is upfront to state. you were back of the top of the out on counting the cost of

trouble in one of the china is biggest shadow. big news. the chinese economy of risk rising fuel prices and a pulling car and see anger in syria over the economic crisis, plus uranium prices at their highest level in more than 12 years. counting the cost on else as the or the united states constitution holds the separation of church and state as sacrosanct. it's a pillar of american democracy at a poor facet of its identity. however, in recent years has been an undercurrent of religious rhetoric and symbology, permeating political discourse. first and nationalism is a term you might have heard on the news or in speech is from someone the right. but what does it really? is it on the rise this week and an upfront special, we take a closer look at 1st and nationalism and how it's affecting politics and civil rights in the united states. the

joining us to discuss this is ampio butler, chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania and author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america. amanda tyler, executive director of the baptist joint committee and contributing author to the christian nationalism and the january 6th insurrection report. and kristen do a professor of history at calvin university and author of jesus and john wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted of faith and fractured a nation, some provocative titles around here to be. and thank you so much for joining me. what is that when you, 1st of the term kristin naturalism has cropped up at various times and us history. and some of the argue it's had a consistent present since the countries founding from connections to white supremacist groups like the k k k, to the more recent patriot front of christian nationalism is by no means a new phenomenon. uh, taking its history into account. how do you define christian nationalism as it is today? actually simply, i just defined it as people who believed that god created america for

a purpose that america is special. in other words, when you are a christian nationalist, you believe that god created america as a christian nation. first of all, 2nd, that white men who were the founders of this nation were also christian. and the 3rd that christianity is the most important religion of all. and that really flies in the face of a lot of things that the founders and the front of you know, all the founding documents, absolutely to arrive disposition, is it that fascinating? one that i've never understood? absolutely. and i think, you know, one of the things that i find troubling about this is the 2 things. actually, one is the way in which they get it all wrong about the founders and the framers and things that they've said. and what are documents, say in the declaration of independence and the constitution, you know, no religious tests, they believe in religious tests then and there's a big religious tested that about christianity. but at the same time, they don't want a lot of government, but they want

a christian government. and so these are the things that i call the tensions within christian nationalism about christian nationalism can't really get the story. right . a 100 percent. yeah. and you know, for all of us around this table, we might have different iterations of what we think christian nationalism is. but i do thinking largest in very much in the history of this nation, how it was founded and why it was founded in everyone trying to put a divine sort of approbation about america. on top of everything. for some christian nationalism has that, like a revival, really a store was that the 19 seventy's when evangelicals on the right kind of align themselves with the republican party, presumably in an effort to kind of galvanized uh, an anti liberal movement. uh, take us through. what's happened over the last, oh my god, it's been 50 years. i didn't realize the 70s that 50 years ago, the, the last half century of what's happened and how the ideology has kind of evolved over time. and you're exactly right. so the idea that america, as a christian nation, has been around for

a very long time. but what we're talking about today, the current kind of explosion of conversation around white christian nationalism really can be traced back to the 19 sixties and 19 seventies. emerging in the cold war era. now just before that you had a strong sense of patriotism, right. and we had a common enemy in communism. and christian nationalism was often something that united americans together not just really not just right wing paula to exactly your kind of consensus era in the sixty's that starts to splinter. and we have the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, and the anti war movement. and that's why we see some of these core values of patriotism, of christian america, of gender traditionalism kind of come together in an oppositional movement. so that we have people who are holding to these values are doing so over against other americans over against civil rights activists. over against feminist liberals, anti war activists. right. and so it becomes this kind of oppositional movement and

allies with the modern republican party. and that's really this christian nationalism that we are seeing today. but it has been brewing for a very long time. in white, evan jellico spaces. right. and he had talked about kind of this mythical notion, right. this is an accurate understanding of our nation's past. it ignores a lot of our founding documents. they will talk about the midst of the separation of church and state. but this has been cultivated in these spaces for decades in sermons, in popular literature in for sims films. and so it is really pervasive, and we're really seeing that the fruits of those seeds very clearly today made that christian nationalism and evangelical isn't more often sort of completed, particularly in the context of trump, in the air of trump. what kind of followers are kinda all in the same mix, but many argue that these groups are actually not the same, that they're distinct. what specifically distinguishes christian nationalist from

evangelicals. well, i think it's important to note the christian nationalism, of course and nationalism as an ideology is a problem for all of the country. and it's a problem for all iterations of christianity. so while it would be convenient to say this is totally aligns with this one expression of christianity. i don't think that's accurate. i think that christians from across from all the different denominations need to wrestle with chris christian nationalism and understand how that's different than christianity. i think that christian nationalism though can help explain quite evangelicals as a voting block, white evangelicals voted in such high numbers for trump, what makes and you've been jealous when you've been jealous as well? that's a, that's a $1000000.00 question, but i think that it's become a term that's more about identity than about religion, especially for white evangelicals. and that's because they are voting in such locks . step for a figure likes trump,

and then now for trump acolytes who are running in this, in this selection. so it is more about an identity that carries with it assumptions about nativism and authoritarianism. and patriarchy, then it does about a religion of christianity. so it's not a particular faith claim or a particular orientation, particularly theological disposition or both. but i think it's both about, i think increasingly we hear it as more of a political movement than a religious identity. and that's concerning friends from that. you all agree with the crew, i would say it this way and i'm interested to hear what christian would say to. i would say that it used to be the logical construct that late in kind of ideas. they came out of the 17th of 18th century what, what does it mean to be evans alcohol? you know, when we think of the word and gal code with which is basically spread the gospel and the good news, right. this is how evans almost always thought of themselves. what we see now is evan chuckle is i'm being acquainted with politics. and so i've said before,

i wrote an article back in 2012 about this, and i said that republicanism was a new religion. and that this is a religion that had aligned itself with evan jell clueless. i mean, i think you're gonna explain something to me, the fascinating and confusing to me. if we say it's a political identity. yeah. we say it's rooted in a particular set of christian values around reading the good news, right? yeah. as i get there competing interpretations and ideas about what it needs to be . question about what the good news is about the new testament about g, i get all of it right, but i can't imagine any iteration. mm hm. that makes sense. and corresponds to top . and yet, even jessica's tie themselves to trump, if you weren't evangelical of any sort, whether you are, even if you thought i would have thought of it as a left wing idiology, if you thought of as a right wing idiology new or a quote unquote bible thumper, and you were, you know, i mean if you're a literalist you, i mean there's no version of this thing that makes sense. but with trucks, presidency, his identity, his character, his history is

a lot of these people pick 12, somebody, please help me understand that i'd love to take my go. so i'm a you right. at some, evans, all calls will define themselves as a theological, as a group defined by their theology. and they'll talk about things like born again, experience and the authority of the scriptures and uh, the centrality of the cost of christ, right? this is how they will define themselves, at least their leader, as well as a cultural history. and while i was looking at the history i saw that didn't really hold together, it doesn't make sense because the vast majority of black protestants in this country, for example, could check off all those boxes. and they do not identify as angelica, because it's very clearly ridiculous. don't identify them as them either, right? most do not write some, some will claim them, but not actually, you know, they won't be in the same churches together or in the same organizations. in many cases, and so i see evans alcoholism, largely as a cultural movement and a system of networks and alliances. so if you want to understand oven jessica with

them today, you have to look at the organizations at their, at christian publishing, at these massive industries. it's a consumer culture, our christian radio, and so it, it shares that quote, unquote christian world view and a far and wide through this popular culture and through membership in these organizations. and that membership is police right. there are gatekeepers here and, and it's those organizations that then unite with political organizations. now the story is how do we get from this understanding of admin job wisdom to support of donald trump. that's where we have to bring in the politics and the power. because with in these communities, they have for half a century now cultivated this understanding that they are under threat, that they have to fight to restore christian america, and that the liberals are against them. everybody is so they need power. they need power in order to restore christian america and trump came in and he was the right guy for the job precisely because he was not constrained by traditional christian

virtue. and he told them he would fight to protect christianity, and they actually called him their ultimate fighting champion. he was their warrior and he would be ruthless on their behalf to preserve their supremacy. exactly. and, and supremacy is the right word here because there's one more thing, dad, he was for white people, period. and so this is the thing that i get at in my book is that i want people understand that evans articles have always had problems about race. so you say racism is it is a feature and not a book. it's a feature of this in, you know, there's one kind of history that we talk about it ever juggles, and that's great. abolition is a, you know, trying to get the boat suffrage. all these things, right? even have all of the civil rights movement, right? but there's another history about evan jungle is a step of reading because it's wanting to have slaves, southern baptists, k k, k who start the k, k, k, a pastor, re, you know,

we have what are we fighting against king because they are evil because they are trying to you serve the status quote, we can see how this goes, right? so by the time we get the truck, right, what are the we just had before? drop of blood, president brock who's saying obama, who to possibly be from america? who is, you know, you use syrup or who is why the tea party movement habits and then to get donald trump and all of these people who are evan shell calls in 2016. you have a rise in people who vote for donald trump in 2020, but what studies have found one in particular, sorry, i'm forgetting the name that they said more people call themselves up and joel, because of what happened in 2016 in not because they thought they believed in this particular kind of christianity is because they believed that m intel coal is a met white to them. and that is the core of all of this white mist is imbedded in american. evan. joe, cool. if you could have black image uncles,

you could have latino evan jungle. but why dublin joel coast are the senate one, not of everything they are yet. and so as a voting block, they are the people that they go for. and let me say this very clearly, because this is what you need to understand why i have a job is i don't trust donald trump delivered donald trump delivered to pre court justices over 200 justice. it's donald trump delivered for them. she was there, deliver it from when we say deliberate, supreme court justices, we're talking about the justices who would overturn robi way. that's right. okay. and which was the thing that they have been fighting for for a very long time. and so he got those justices. he got those justices where he lined up everything for them. so why wouldn't they go to the capital and fight for him? why wouldn't they go to the ballot box and fight for him? why wouldn't they believe that the election was a lot? because donald trump was ordained by god to be in that particular position. and so

that's what evan joel calls think write down who are for donald trump. chris is in your book using john wayne. you write that evangelical support for former present donald trump is the combination of evangelicals embrace of militant masculinity and the callous display of power at home and abroad. those are ideas that seemed again to be at odd with some of their fundamental faith claims fundamental beliefs. um, how do you reconcile, how do they reconcile these things? do they attempt to reckon out? and i'd love you to weigh on this as well. i mean, how, how do they reconcile this stuff? yeah, i mean they did seem to be when i 1st started this research, which was almost 20 years ago now actually i was, was looking at popular of indelicate books on masculinity and how to be a christian man. and this is a huge market, right. these books, some of them are selling in the millions. so vast market and people are men are studying these in churches and in small groups. what does it mean to be a christian man? while i read some of these, and i was surprised because there weren't

a whole lot of bible verses in these books. instead they look for hollywood heroes . they look to mel gibson's william wallace from the movie braveheart or that's their favorite. they looked a cowboys and warriors and soldiers, and john wayne, right. and this not like him. jesus, not jesus, right? but then what they ended up doing is they transformed jesus, they transformed the jesus of the gospels into this warrior christ. now you can find some passages and revelation to work with them to build on. and then they, they make jesus been to this like man on it with big muscles on tattoos, down his leg, charging into battle, wielding and bloody sword to slay his enemies. so when they're talking about following christ, right, that's the price that they're holding up, not the price to says, love your enemies, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek and put that sword away. and so there's be a logical work actually being done to transform historic christian teachings in the service of their own quest for power. amanda,

you said the question nationalism was a political ideology, not a religious identity, as you've talked about here. but christian nationalism is distinguished from every day political conservatism or why has this kind of nationalist ideology been attached to christianity in the us? in particular, there's always been this disconnect about who we say we are and who we really are. and so who we say we are as a country is a country that embraces religious freedom for all it's right there in our founding documents, no religious test and that there will are government will remain secular so that religion can flourish. but christian nationalism which privileges christianity and says, there is a special place for christians and american society has been running alongside these ideals all the way. and so i think it's just been there for people to seize upon and try to organize around. and there is cultural live legitimacy still to being a christian, there is a special place that seems and different in elective office. all of our presidents,

for instance, of all profess christianity that even though true exactly, is despite there being no religious test for public office. and so i, i think that we, we see this tension in our society right now. and so there's something still a culturally current about being a christian and professing christianity that provides cover for what is really become authoritarian action uh in, in our current contact. i want to drill down a little bit on this question about the kind of foundational documents of the united states and how they say there's no religious tests and how they establish a separation of church and state. and so in the thomas jefferson, yeah, referred to this stablish main clause in the 1st amendment. me as a wall of separation between religion and government or as we commonly call it again, this separation of church and state. but christian nationalist seem to want to undermine this, which wouldn't be so weird if they weren't also brandishing the constitution,

the constitutional rhetoric about freedom and democracy in liberty. yeah. kind of a records of this and we've got mass messaging would be asking this. well, i think probably the question isn't, you know, how are they doing it? the question is doing it, and then they don't really care about that history. thomas jefferson, what does it has disney junior was gonna, i mean, this engine was absolutely disingenuous because as many people, though, around the civil, there's lots of tongues that have been written about history. from a very strange perspective. i a david barton who writes these histories that are not real histories about america and american religion. right. and so when john jefferson is writing to the church in danbury, connecticut, and saying, you know, they should be as well as know, we're not doing this right. they don't care the thomas jefferson had a koran, they don't care that the corolla is sitting right down the street and the see at the smithsonian. what they care about is that god made this a special nation. and so when you talk about this nation being special, those documents can read them how you want to read them because you read the same

history that christian is teaching in her history class, or i'm teaching in american religion class. they're not reading that stuff. they are reading these kinds of made up homes. this is, this is a last doubt and movement. and we have to think about christian nationalism as adults delta massage before time that never exist. it does delta for time that didn't exist at the beginning of this nation. why did people come here? they came here to escape, you know, ty, radical religion in england. they want it to have religious freedom to do what they wanted to do. they were religious people, and now we see this being used as no, no, no, we need to have a state religion just like england. this is crazy, right? because you're doing exactly the thing that our founders and framers were with battle for. and so i think what we have to really understand about people who are embracing christian nationalism right now is that they may not get all the nuances

around this table, right. they just hear this as another phrase in a whole lot of phrases like make america great. again, american exceptionalism, greatness of america that have been spewed out from different kinds of people through our history. kristin, some would argue that christian nationalism is gaining political clout, a number of politicians like marjorie taylor green. lauren bober and republican pennsylvania gubernatorial candidate doug must've yano, have all been increasingly in the spotlight while towing the christian nationalism line. is christian nationalism to influence on the rise, or is it a matter of these voices being louder and taking up more space in the political discourse? it's about it's about. and that's been something that we've seen really just in the last few months. initially when scholars a social scientists and so we're surfacing this and and saying this is christian nationalism and, and it's authoritarian and anti democratic and it's all of these other things we saw inside christian spaces among those who were promoting christian nationalism

deny that even existed and say that you're just smearing us for being patriot and, and then within just weeks we saw the rhetoric shift and we saw people like marjorie taylor green. come out and say yes, i'm a christian national as a nationalist, learned bober and proud of it and and not just that. but all christians ought to be christian nationalists. and then all christians are christian nationalists. amanda, we have seen the over turning over all the way to landmark federal ruling, the guaranteed the right to abortion, a wave of anti translate distillation government funding earmarked for religious education all. and it's kind of part of an alarming shift in policy and judiciary rulings tied to the far right going forward. how is christian nationalism going to affect the fundamental, i mean, really the basis of civil rights for people in united states? i think christian national lives and strikes at the very heart, a civil rights for all americans. i've said that christian nationalism is the

single biggest threat today for religious freedom for all, because it cuts against that core foundational ideas that are belonging in american says diety should never depend on how we worship, or how we identify religiously and christian nationalism tries to blow all of that up. and so one part of christian nationalism, of course, is this idea that the united states should be declared a christian nation. it, very alarmingly, there was a new pole out, but a majority of republicans believe that the united states should be declared a christian nation. even though a majority of republicans also know that that's unconstitutional. so, so they understand, that's why i don't believe that, that of course, those who most of spouse, christian nationalism really believe in the 1st amendment. they don't, they believe in a, a system of government that would privilege christianity. and then unfortunately, it's a fascinating given how mellow dramatically they have talked about. yes. going into

the middle east, how they need to tear down is law, me, governments, lumnick states, how they've denounces lumnick nationalism and religious test. some other sorts of in there really thing we don't have a problem with states and religion. we just want our state and our religion. i say, i think you got it. i think that's exactly right. that they have progress the of, of condemning religious nationalism on the world stage while trying to embrace it at home. but that's exactly what's happening. and i think in a post real world, we will see attempts at religious laws being passed in the state legislatures. and at the same time, the us supreme court in the last term, not only with the jobs decision, but also with really landmarks, decisions trying to destroy the wall between a separation between church and state, have under cut the legal protections, and that, that could become a reality, i think this is incredibly concerning both for civil rights of all americans. and

especially for those in our public schools. i'm really concerned about christian nationalism and civil rights of our youngest neighbors. those in the public schools . and. and for instance, if we might see more state sponsored religious exercise in the public schools as well as of course, the attack on history being taught in the public schools, they would much rather teach the mythology of a christian nation than a candid history of the united state, we could, we could literally into the schools with dinosaurs, the right of the curriculum, and we're going back to creation creation stories. well, i mean, i can't believe we're having this conversation, but we no longer have the legal protections or the support of the, of the united states supreme court and helping us to send off attacks like this. and so it's going to be up to those of us who are, who are concerned about person nationalism who don't want to see this is a religious state of who care about religious freedom for all people to stand up in huge at those foundational ideals. but what i think the 3 of you for an amazing conversation, are you right?

that is our show up front will be back next week the the hiring sensation in women, sleepily italian trails lazy pilot a go new stands up to racism. and though to challenge her identity and would allow anyone that doesn't know how it is to wake up every day and fight for something you're truly believed to think that during the away from me or the strongest land,

no matter what comes to you, you take it and you get out and you can keep going because it wants to be the best generation, thoughts on how to 0. the alternation and marks connected with one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. we don't accept any getting migrant joining with the military to impose that deadly political agend. you have to filter our nation. what is happening to the pension? that's one of the biggest stains of the country as well as in not really. this is important to me in an unholy alliance. oh no, just here. the craig zone extends much deep into the mountains and we've watched a search and rescue efforts to get underway. despite the risk, we're seeing residents returning to their homes in search of their belonging destruction here completely destroyed seats. minarette and cox peer just goes to

show again, the challenge of um, bringing heavy equipment into these areas. the army is deployed. it's how the company has to be at this sense of the way it's a ready adult assigned to flying people. to trumps. under the rubble the haggis gave me about 4 people carrying guns. took me to a veteran. they said, either you given, we take your life, the u. n is warning against the rising use of sexual violence and the conflict in sedan will be live in khartoum and across the border and the time several venue. it's great to have you with us. this is elza 0 light from the

also coming up this hour. dozens of people have been injured in a huge fire at a police.