i look for location ahead of the presidential elections in october with fearless journalism and in depth coverage of to 0 is when you close to the last of the story, [000:00:00;00] the, the israel to draw up a new, clear palm on garza, the shocking suggestion of cabinet member i mean shy eliyahu, although he's being suspended, his comments have highlighted the devastating potential of israel's cobra nuclear program. so how great

a threat to use it to go off the end of this is inside story. the hello again. 9 james phase is widely seen. is one of the middle east west cap secrets, israel's nuclear program, believe to originated in the 1950s israel possesses approximately 19 nuclear bones, according to the stall comb, international piece research institute. israel has never officially acknowledge the existence of its nuclear weapons, but they believe to be and rivals in the region like iran. the country is not a signatory to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. so the statement by cabinet minister sank is route could up to drop and atomic boma garza is raising along most so since how hard line is like i'm each i at yahoo, such as the national security minister. it's him up and give you and the find out some of this stuff as allow smoked rich, a pulse of prime minister benjamin netanyahu, whose cabinet? so is israel, continues it, but boston gone, so ship it will be worried about is nuclear arms program. we'll discuss all this with our experts in a moment, but 1st let's take

a look at some of the global reactions, a prime minister netanyahu. and these really government have represented those comments, which we also found as, as holy and acceptable. and we continue to believe that it is important for all sides of this conflict, to refrain from hateful rhetoric that is going to further insight pensions. russia is foreign ministry is the bonding, the you ends nuclear watchdog, the i a carry out inspections, an arab countries of voicing the criticisms of am each i l. e. ya. whose comments y'all release as a suggestion reveals the true face of the occupation government and everyone who defends it in the west. the jordanian ministry of foreign affairs considers his statement a cold for genocide and a hate crime, but cannot be tolerated on saudi arabia's problem ministry. so the comments shows to what extent extremism and brutality have penetrated these, right? the government well that's bringing to

a panel of guests to discuss all of this in the whole robbie act or she is director of the center for security strategy and policy research at the university of the whole. she's an expert on nuclear nonproliferation, and the non resident senior fellow at the atlantic council in the hague ahmed, before international lawyer and legal research. you and advocacy office, f o l hotkey human rights organization. i'm the boss in the u. k. patrick barry, defense and security expert at the university of boss, thank you. all of you for coming to speak to us. so these comments that we're discussing come from and also particularly senior member of the is riley kaplan. that's the minister of heritage. but um it, they are pretty shocking on like, and i wish i could say yes they are. i mean understanding the b a. is there a mentality and this of the nature of this routine, a committed genocide or not? is

a bit into use and you dare power wouldn't be very sure. ok. it's worth mentioning that is, are on, has already dropped in cause, or they were present of to fershema and use the or bombs and continued to, to bomb cause up. but you're absolutely right it's, it's a very interesting the end because these are out for decades has been adopting a policy of strategic. i'm the guarantee when it comes to it's a nuclear power and it never confirms organize that it has this power. but an announcement from a member of the government a should raise a lot that israel indeed has this power and wanted to do to, to use it. so i think the statement must be taken a very serious thing. it must be condemned to international being. it's quite a outrages to be honest and shameful, that in this very moment, until this very moment you still didn't hear any condemnation from uh, the so called leaders of

a free ward or from western states. before we move on without discussion, i'm it, it's, i think is was telling of you, is that not only are you an expert on all panel, but you're also from garza originally? yes, you're in the hague now, but you're from gaza. how just before we move on discussing this particular issue, how is it watching these pictures every hour, every day, for a month now of what's happening in your homeland, as horrifying and sort of fine. i am, as you mentioned, i'm originally from guys born and raised as a revision. i'm not originally from gaza as such as a, you know, 75 percent of reputation is not from outside the ruby g sort i think begins from their homes and brothers. and then in 1948, um it's heartbreaking to see the neighborhood where i grew up in which thing does, is it a completely destroyed? there is no justification whatsoever for such word t and, and targeting all of civilian objects. i residential neighborhoods it's,

it's clearly that this is about causing home, not necessarily about the military objective. and this was actually stated by the idea of put spoke person when you said the focus is on damage. nothing precision. and if you allow me, it's important also to to understand that as a descriptors interview on. so this doesn't, didn't happen in a vacuum. this, this current situation is a result of 75 keys of scientists design a simpler colonialism and, and pa, this time. and it's a hard time your team imposed on the palestinian people as a whole. this is a result of the 56 years of police or integration the longest in modern history. that is, info isn't posting people in the, in the provide policy and territory including histories of them. and this is also the result of israel's 16 year long, suffocating brocade, on the guys as true. one of the most densely populated areas and or just to give you an idea of how bad this tuition was, even before the, the, the us and has published

a report in 2012 at concluding that the guys out will be a livable by 2020, where 3 years passed that with relentless, with complete siege mitigate for life, the siege and remains as bombardment of, of the, of civilian areas and the equivalent of 2 new, clear a bombs. it's, it's absolute insanity that this is happening in 2023 and the award is still cannot even cool for a cease fire. it's after the shameful for all of these leaders of states around the world, especially in the west for a fuse to go for a ceasefire. i can, i can convenient be say that definitely they have a blog posting of children on their hands since the continued support israel. and not only a by providing diplomatic coverage, but also sending live in an arms to israel that are being used in policy and

civilian. okay, let me bring in patrick now this, minnesota not a particularly senior role, the minister of heritage. and i have to admit myself, although i do try and follow events closely. i have not heard of amie chai, eliyahu before these comments, patrick. and in fact, one person i spoke to said he's really not a serious player. but this, these are sit, this price is serious issues, doesn't it? i think, i think of rhetoric was serious and shop, you know, and it shows you, it was probably, you know, as it came out and he moved the radio station. it was probably designed to, to the internal audience, but you know, in today's media environment that gets out very quickly. and he's been relieved of us, i think is, is your, your previous contributor said? and it does sort of raise questions about the policy issues. he can come together the and who knows whether he's actually being fired because of the breaking is right, the defense policy, or he's being fired of, or as well as for his,

the sort of shocking remarks that they should, they should usually get the records on guys or be prepared to add but as you correctly identify this, this, this guy is talking to the defense ministry or any brittany or the centers of oklahoma. so i would have been, i think, a better response to remove from an agency from government to show that that's not the kind of thing that's acceptable at all. and then just rather suspending them, i think the wider signatures on has been any sooner which has happened since since buses invasion of ukraine is this normalization of neutral or rhetoric, which has been john, essentially this. and this phase by vladimir, whom the distress is talking about as nucular forces and readiness. and also by his former deputy and former president, dimitri medford at, at who is use social media, lots of put i'd threats, and then retracted. so what we're seeing unfortunately is a is

a normalization of this new killer rhetoric, which of course is incredibly scary for yeah. allow me bringing robbie on that particular point later on in the program. i'd like to talk to you more about the specifics of israel's nuclear program, rob you but the whole that that the issue, the patrick raises that using nuclear weapons as a rhetorical threat. that's what ring and it's on his own, isn't it? yeah, absolutely. james, i, i think, you know, i'm not gonna say it's the good news, but it's the same news that has come out of the revision in the boss one month and 75 years with designing for whatever it's worth of this is riley, heritage minister from attending further meetings and making public appearances in building new tribes. you know, he was not only can then begin his drive, but also by the u. s. a drunken showing by the rest of the world. as far as

considering the use of nuclear weapons and browser as a possibility, why i believe this then the nation happens, it is reflected of deep sea. the mindset is reached of age and you'll get at bins. you know, his star key can temporarily in any settings, it'll not much row that paid for rhetoric. and so whenever the issue arise and then the, the rose is rightfully very, that's right. you know, to go back in time, the race to bill you to the things in the us accelerated in the late fees as far as stuff over the years or cause based on the list agent for years. has he replied, new directions. perhaps it was with you guys if in one today and use the word understands bad about uh if uh, you know, the word needs to understand that about any eugene which has nuclear weapons mix of food and i do all the seals page rate and it's going to be a perfect consequences, ahmed, he has been suspended,

but he's not actually being fired from his job. and i understand he was able to vote in the news, really cabinet minister, a etiquette cabinet, meeting by phone as well. so i think was pointing out, isn't it? i mean, he's not the only the so extreme right. member of this cabinet is the most extreme right government in israel as history. you have been there, who's the national security minister, lead lives, and then the legal settlement. you have the, the finance minister, small rich uses the palestinian people. an invention. you have notes in the cabinet, but you have a mom is leaves the shows policy already a dairy. you can't be in the cabinet because of his previous convictions, but he is one of the official observers to the free man will caplin hood. i'm with these people up, having considerable influence, are they not, is ready to public life homage at this time? i'm my dad, so let me just state this as obvious as it could ever be. the names you just mentioned, uh, the most appropriate place for them is not in any government,

is here in the hate in the so a belonging to the international criminal court where they, where they would be persecuted for a and their actions were the actions of their of the government as iraq, the point to dollars is professor is that these are leading and government and making genocide those statements almost in a daily basis. and the board is not just not reacting. that's why i think such statement must be taken very seriously. we're talking about a very right wing races, ministers, some of them self described as ashes as, as home a boat indicates a baseless monitors for example, who can decide the fate of the cause. then people basis metric as the minister of finance. a thing of here is the minister of national security has been army settlers, abdul hawk, we have been documenting a rise of over a 133 percent of a similar

a terrorism against posting has ended respect. so these are problematic people that they don't normally make statements they, they take decisions that result the result and suffering of civilians and the combined policy. andrea trees and they must be held accountable to patrick. we have mr. eliyahu like to clarify his remarks about using a nuclear weapon on garza saying it was metaphorical, but it's worth perhaps quoting some other things the set did not interview. we wouldn't have given the nazis humanitarian aid. there's no such thing as innocence . in gauze, these are shocking comments. when you see only a trickle of aid going into gaza, people that having to drink contaminated war to people a beginning, it seems to be solving. and of course, there's no fuel being allowed in by these riley's a tool, which means hospitals on now barely functioning. is that a lot of things, you know,

the big picture here is that you're, you're dealing with a place in a region where the only strategic stability and security for both people is through a 2 state solution. and so care from the ministry strategic point of view, nukes, navigates whatever, okay, long term to get people out of the site, the fear and radicalization you must do that. administer is essentially an irreconcilable. yeah. he's that far on the are on the hard right of his part of the sounds like any of it i can. so high level he's obviously it is a political dynamic that he can explain by making these noises internally. and that's often what this, this is a by, you know, we see the same thing of the far right movements around the world. you know, it's actually just, they're just using the media and commentary to build up their base or whatever. and for the fact that already, you know, polarize the political space and what i would say the, the far right movements and in and he's retina. these appointments of different ministers is, you know, nearly 1 o'clock in a prime minister beforehand. and his plummeting is approval rating. is dropping

that and essentially at the strategic level is really taking the baby that's come off until the synergy had set by making out a tap. yeah, come out and basically isolate the rest of the outer world, which by the way, many nations are starting to try to normal as with the as well. and in the long run, great another to the fighters who as long as their relatives and want revenge, you know, this is not the strategic i'm calling that you would rather cancel, you know, the strategic i've come would have been to take a pause. yeah. do nothing more. yeah. for the 1st time ever. and then more okay, what you're going to do is to teach again. yes. some people who were behind this are going to die and there's going to be some civilians are going to die as well because that's the way i'm a fights. but i don't think it has to be of this scale and of this level of what i would call strategic funding. okay, rob. yeah, i'd like you to just look a little bit in detail about it runs, i'm sorry,

wrong. we'll come onto the wrong. but israel's nuclear program, we've to, we have the term strategic ambiguity that i publicly say they have nuclear weapons, but it's clearly the worst kept secret in the middle east. can you give us? i want a short walk, maybe 2 minutes, 3 minutes. the potted history of israel is a nuclear program. sure, so is eyes policy are fine, you can, they use these all things as a, as a samsung option, which is a deliberate strategy of neither confirming nor design the existence office nuclear weapons program. and this policy, how does that asian in the start grow as well as the security concerns that is dry spaces in the region. according to this narrative program began lead 19 fifties, or early sixties. and during the division and infinity, there has had concerns about a security. i knew here that this was seen as means to do the cost of neighbors and ensure the survival of today state the security concerns that is dry, hide,

you know, as far as the 7 wars of it, it's out of the tables as well. then you can measure the policy was intended to data for attention advisories by keeping them uncertain about is dryer's new break everybody's username fashions. and it also had some different, not again, you know, international benefits as well because they decide some of those things on so long for long now. the longest time now as riley development has been concerned about the, you know, acknowledgement or future reference program. indemnification said the international level, therefore, neither confounding nor denying is right and why in strict been gone for the position obligations or as soon as you can assign sions under the various international treaties, is right as long as you have some degree is also to damage your preventative care on traces, amenities because it's drivers to all the knowledge that it possesses. future

reference is good for what other reason stage, like iran and solve a bus do their own nuclear programs, which was the slice of aging 5 that at the end time in terms of the styles of this nuclear program. um, what is quite interesting, a sort of foot note now in history is that it was the french that helped israel build this program. and in fact, the heavy will to, which was a key component is a key component increase your bomb came from, of old people, given that role in piece making in the middle east, came from no way bring us up to speed. now, how, how many nuclear warheads do you think israel has? how i, you know, tell us what that all single is now to your knowledge. so there is a new notebook that underneath thumbs up with that number for the patients here as in state. and as of now finding the documents and northbrook is dried as around 90 is a wash and that's, that's the figure that comes up. and yes, it started seeing many countries are contributed to the size of the program. french

do adopted this. so patrick, i think it's important maybe to explain the nuclear nonproliferation treaty the idea or i think is to stop them know how to create a nuclear bomb. going to move all nations. so the new plan nation supposed to sign up to that uh, in the israel pocket stone. i have never signed up to that treaty. i understand a north korea withdrew from the treaty when we talk about the idea of proliferation in an spreading, the knowledge of going back in history is rather widely believed to shed new, clear knowledge with south africa when it was under the apartheid regime. yes, absolutely. so the, the n p t, the nonproliferation treaty is signed by russia, china, u, k, u s, and france. and the idea was to contain the stuff, the fusion of, of new to knowledge. but, you know, the world being is,

it is often it's in different nations interests. and obviously the member states and certain certain allies and partners and other states, you know, desperately seeking to develop its own know how to, what we're saying, for example, in around and there are richmond programs depending on it seems to the majority of that isn't agents. you know, they're trying to do it themselves and potentially with some help along the way in, in different periods of history. but, so, essentially it is, nations do share. it's a, it's, it's an interesting insight in terms of the norwegians providing the heavy water as well. you know, obviously you got very developed in their new care program and during the, during that just after the, to the 2nd world war i'm going to give you just reflects that. the thing about new generations is to vote who you are. basically you look at the history, they're basically immune or it's an insurance card from being invaded. so you can see why a country that is obviously

a population that have gone through the whole house and traumatize by the and why the 1st prime minister banker and was so keen to dry the head. you'd have the jewish scientist, oppenheimer, tyler einstein. all really key people in the development of the nuclear bomb and israel has no strategic tax. it's a small country compared to with our neighbors and a e at the time in the sixty's. and you know, face of the large arabs, soviet equipped, um, are we using air forces? so it was seen as it's insurance cards and hence why, why it flushed and robbie of this makes the whole neighborhood very dangerous. so it doesn't change because we hear about the classes that have going on and perhaps increasing in the north between israel and his beloved. and of course iran is close to his beloved. just tell us quickly about it runs nuclear program and i think is mainly guess what by offices and that because neither a wrong gives out any information in the intelligence agencies tracking it this the

i i'm the most out on giving us a run running commentary. but i saw something earlier in the a senior pentagon official said that back in 2018, it would take me around about 12 months to produce one buttons was of fissile material and this was in february it would take around 12 days. is that your understanding of how close the ron is right now to what they called breakout. as i say the dogs are those that are, you know, based on western intelligence analyzers, suggests that are on is a threshold future space. and it is only a question of into whether they are going to go and use it or not. and yes, and they're dying lines that you as the, you know, right? people entered as well. but you know, when it's on it as an attitude as rise, right? joseph country has come out and says that, you know, it has issued a religious bucks off against future reference being around. uh why is that not

being taken on face value capability or size? so school year has that gives us energy age. if i have with disability and these countries also as stressful states and as long as the question of the same sense arise, single out iran, iran is abstract to the region, the distracted ballistic missile program because it's like some modern air force. so the long range here on his eyes is, has, can reach it on as in the salary. if you have, you know, something like 12001250 mile range. and because it brings these countries into the range, the daughter's a buyer is born, new job is, is much more in the face as compared to other countries that are also specials. but we also patrick, have an amount of us trips to aircraft carriers. a many, many war ships in the, in the region in the eastern mediterranean, also now revealed that there was a nuclear power. and us submarine, we don't know whether it's itself is carrying nuclear warheads, but how,

what read all you about escalation and then potentially miscalculation. so i think the more, obviously, the miscalculation risk is always, that is the worry when things go wrong. of those miscommunication or some sort of accident that's the, that's the, the uncontrollable. but i would say, you know, people are doing their best at the conflicts behind the scenes. and i think in terms of the point of most the most worry, i personally would have been passed that one when israel gone instagram evasion and there was no, must have responds by hezbollah. partly because of course you've got to us carrier groups sitting off the coast of israel. so anything that did happen would have obviously included potentially escalated very quickly. nevertheless, what's interesting and again, you know, or the previous commentator just talk about it around. and the reason is that the stabilizer i don't know, you know, again, hasn't been reported out of the us based isn't in iraq and syria being taking heavy attached and the number of wounded in the almost 50. when does not that,

and in the way of to october the 7th attack and you with them, things that any responsible hour would, would say, given the tensions in the region, but actually don't that down and, and kind of the time. but instead of to increase it, i bought it by the, by at least a 100 percent. the attacks mom at home and i'd like to bring you, i like to bring, you know, i'm in to the ends because if we, we're moving away with this discussion, it's an important discussion from what's going on on the ground in gaza and you are from gaza and when i look at the pictures, some pots, because it looked like there's already been in the table. well, yeah, that's, that's, that's correct. the, the, the level of destruction caused by israel is on, i'm president. but if you allow me before of talking about that i, i like to touch upon something that patrick said. first of all, this whole notion that the key to security s o m piece is exclusively a certain political solution,

be the tuesday solution or any other solution. it's elizabeth, problematic, the, uh, the key to security m b strip be routed in justice. we should have learned the lessons of a 4th or 2 and a number of trials. and let me quote what the persecutor of number of trial says. and benjamin friends said ones at the trial that they can be no peace without justice and no justice without lo and no meaningful without the court to decide what is just a little under giving cert under any given circumstance. the other point i patrick mentioned now i would love to to, to comment on is that as well? so in the travel, how much i don't think does the case, i think is there also an opportunity of what happened and it's over 7 to materialize along announced a aim and gold to i think that extends the posting is in the guster bush and assign . i, this is not the secret as writing this have spoken about this for uh for, for

a long time. and this seems to be objective. and now going to add to, to us that you question, you're absolutely right. the, the, the level of, of destruction is unprecedented. and in a way, coupled with israel's or official dangerous genocidal statements as rows, systematics targeting of protected civilians, mostly women and children, and of protected civilian objects including hospitals and lenses on our worst schools bakeries on our rough foot storage is watered reserves, indicate a clear deliberate policy of starvation being used as a method of worth it. the aims at inducing people of guys are to these because it's true. these are a series of war crimes, crimes against humanity, including starvation. as far as displacement is included, the cleansing persecution. and this seems to be another neck, but with a frequent

a serious signals of a genocide. i'm a folding before our eyes, ahmed, thank you very much. in science, you too old, i guess around the act of patrick battery and aman. before he went inside story, we're going to continue to examine every aspect of the goals of war to find more of our programs, as well as extended articles, a much needed context. you should had to our website, which is 0 dot com. if you have comments, we want to hear from you hear from you post them on facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story or on the former twitter now x at h, a inside story for me, james face, and all of us here in doha, stay safe i'll see you very soon, bye for now. the the exploring type less cultural, examining political disco exposing societies,

doctor award winning intense investigations. the get compelling insights into humanity. open until the stories from asia are in the pacific. 101 east. on out. just see around the, [000:00:00;00] the clouds, the whole robin, you're watching the houses that are in use, a line from a headquarters here in the hall coming up in the next 60 minutes. a mounting death toll in gauze. that is really as price continued to hit residential areas, mold in $10500.00 pallets, city and subbing killed since october,