quarterly override in humanitarian laws. international laws are you look at when they're doing the hospitals. they're bombing their own hospitals, their teammate children. they are on our, on our best. have you look at the rockets. ok to be found. it still being disputed by israel's actually target, in hospitals that are on the verge of collapse. one out of every 200 people in the house. how can you justify this? is a tragedy of war, and i pray for all the edison lives that been lost. but again, this is all at the root of the mazda is evil. you look at a home on, again, that story, kids next to rocket launchers doing everything in their power to not let people get to safety and the sound isn't safe for the bomb incident happened. didn't happen to us out there safe. so in the south and again on every day in our study, reduce the 1000000 casualties. charlie, i appreciate you taking the time. and so again, this is

a huge car to one of the people speaking just said they are aware that the narrative is changing. there is there to change it back. i have to say, i have security this to marks like this ever. i haven't seen this much secure through january 6 national guard walking to every street very far back. very worried about what our senior political analyst model and michelle has more on those comments of the valley and how they cozy is rarely narrative of events. there's a $116.00 page guide produced by the is the right of project in america. and i just heard 4 statements from this young man looked out of the guy that actually he

doesn't know what he's talking about. exactly. but he copied word for word the guy, the words in the guides, for example, just starting with the 1st one. when he said this is not a question of is that versus how much is the question about how much versus the world? this is exactly the sentence mentioned in the guide. other things about him, he's feeling really sorry for everybody to sing and try that. but right as a guy again from the guides. so this young highlighted uh, you know, sort of the, you kind of assigned this youth organization in america a back a number of others. they're sort of educating in dr. nathan, a young generation of american scientists on how to talk to the media. because these are the same, talking points that we hear in front of them is really officials, aren't they? absolutely. in fact, in the guide, the 116 guides they mentioned margaret gave nothing you know, on others as the people to emulate and why they've been brilliant. wife, parents had this incredible sometimes on why nothing, you know, when he talks about not our different answers,

but our shared prosperity over about, about how we kid about each and every kind of thing and family, and so on, so forth. so it's all an ecosystem of sort. and just to recap our top story before we go, this riley is reading guys as long as hospital with thousands of civilians, a sheltering it says it's false, is a conducting an operation within specific areas of the i'll ship a compound doctors have gone to remain with the patients, i will be back at the top of the hour with more on the on casa, next it's awesome line. thank you very much for watching the submits the world slow down. we stand firm as homes, with tips of global nickel reserves. indonesia is points to leave the global, the battery industries. we definitely manage our abundant resources and play

a role in solar energy. harnessing offerings, 75 percent of global carbon credits essential. committed to environmental protection, enhancing investment climate, digital licensing. your better tomorrow a. hi, i'm steve clements, i have a question. israel's war and gaza tearing apart the democratic party in the united states, especially the youngest voters. let's get to the bottom line. the doesn't is real, have a right to defend itself, is what it's doing. now self defense is real, committing more crimes should criticism of his real somehow be illegal. how were palestinians supposed to gain their freedom after decades of being occupied and scattered in the diaspora? all of these are important questions is us president joe biden right to stand with this real with no red line?

how many more supposed to die before there's some kind of a permanent ceasefire? these questions and more are being seriously debated around the world. and america is no exception in congress on university campuses inside news rooms here on social media and on the streets. the debate on palestine, israel as eclipse, almost all other global crises. so where is the middle east conflict taking american politics? today? we're talking with katie, help her host of the katie help her show and ryan graham, washington bureau chief of the intercept and author of the squad, a o c, and the hope of a political revolution. so ryan, let me start with you and thanks for joining us. today both of you, how hard is it to have a real discussion, a fair american style, 360 degree discussion where we entertain views. there's sometimes uncomfortable on the israel palestine crisis today. if you are centering half of the debate for expressing their position in that debate,

you can't have that debate. it's remarkable. i saw somebody say recently that the 2nd person ever centered by congress was censured for introducing a congressional resolution to end slavery to have. and that's what that is. one of the only times that a member of congress was centered for speech and even that was an act introducing an actual resolution. what were she to, to leave has done here is, is, gets censured for speech. and so to have a debate to say here, here is where i still want to pause. yeah, you know what, i want you to tell our viewers that they may not be following every, you know, twist and turn in american politics. what happens with where she to sleep, what, what is sensor mean and how important is it? so currently censure means a lot, but i think it's going to mean increasingly less because of what just happened. and what happened is that uh, well, 1st of all, it is a, it's a legislative maneuver inside congress that has no teeth to it. it just all bark is

it just says that the sense of the house of representatives is that this person is bad for this particular conduct. but it's done so and frequently that it has maintained some potency among members of congress so far in late persons language. they're saying to this individual member of congress, we distain you exactly tell, telling them that they, they do, they do not belong within the confines right of a reasonable and respectable people. really. and people have seen what emanates from the house of representatives. big, big dream is that you'll hear, you know, coming from all over the place. the part of the concerned about her comments is her concern about calling joe biden. you know, part of the genocide of kind of coming in and, and attacking many people within her own party. that's before you get into a palestine issues. jamie raskin, who is now one of the top democrats in the house kind of gave the, gave a speech on behalf of rashid,

in defense of rush to get to leave saying that he thought that some of what she said, particularly her use of the phrase from the river to the say, he called it a point and he said, but i would never discipline her as like, like, like a child for saying it. you know, if she's going to be disciplined by anybody, it should be by the voters back in her district to either support or reject what she, what she says when she's representing them in washington. she's been elected back into congress multiple times since 1st being elected in 2018. and so you can disagree with what somebody says, but to actually discipline them and try to stop them from saying it means you're never gonna move beyond the place where you're at. now because when jamie raskin told her, i think the support your, what you said is important that, that enabled her to then say, here's what i mean by river to this, the, i don't understand what you're saying. here's rank, here's what i'm saying. and you're not gonna move forward without that right, katie, i just want to ask you, because you've been a victim in this to of how hard is it to have an honest discussion, even if it,

you know, that tries to open peoples aperture is as to just jumping on a team. right. and so i, i think you're referring to the fact that i was banned and fired from the hill where i used to appear every week. the show rising because i need a video. i wrote a monologue, but they didn't let me era it had their elsewhere. but basically, defending receded slave and her claim that is realism to parted state. and i made the case that it was indeed an prototype state by the definition of apartheid which exist. it's not really a subjective question and people ranging from south african leaders to is really prime ministers themselves have acknowledge that it's a part tied. so i definitely experience firsthand the century as uh, the atmosphere in which you are allowed or not allowed to talk about these things. but of course, you know, i want to be clear that the people who are most suffering from this are the people of guys are the people in palestine,

error of americans. we're being told that they don't matter, that their pain doesn't matter. mazda of americans and the very people in gaza who are right now being ethnically, cleanse bomb that with their homes in and ask that i agree with receive this play. but i think this is a question of genocide and i'm not a genocide expert, but i defer to the experts in this be all to have said that it's done to sidle. one interesting thing is that often the hardest thing to prove with genocide is the genocide on tests. and israel has done the world a favor by making their genocide on 10 clear by staying out loud. you have the president saying that there were no civilians, basically, he actually said this rhetoric of civilians is ridiculous. all these people are responsible because they bought it from us, which is a crazy thing to say because the last election was 2006 and half of the of the guys is population as children. you had netanyahu citing the bible and

on the left and making these comments about wiping out men, women children suckling the oxen. if you've had the justice minister talk about human animal. so it's been very clear. and i think rashid it's way is right. i think was painful is not what receipt it's wade has that. what's shameful is that the united states is complicit in these acts of genocide that are taking place in gaza right now as we speak. so let me ask you this, you know, i read the press as best i can and tell him, be from the political right to the political left that, you know, try to cheer to be a regular ticket to understand what's going on. and i see a very robust debate going on in israel, but when i see similar debate go on abroad, people pay a price are right. you are how you have received a slave being punished for saying something that you can stay in the are at the one of the leading is really newspapers. i mean, i'm have family and is real. i'm jewish. i lost family to the holocaust. i

understand the that what happened october 7th was incredibly painful for effect trash here. that also does not mean that you are able to commit war crimes to events, those feelings, and of course history doesn't start october 7. a lot of people in the media are framing it as if it does, but there is an active occupation. and part of the reason that i'm off is able to make the gains that they made on october 7th, is because so much in the army was at the west bank, helping settlers harass feel the olives and pill palestinians. ryan, i'm interested in why all of his passion on college campuses in newspapers, wasn't there the day before. and you've written a book called the squad a o c and the hope of a political revolution. and you identified as i understand it. this divide over palestine be one of the formative elements of identity of the squad. well before this incident happened, so tell us about that. and it actually came externally that came from the outside.

another was, it came from outside the squad when, when the squad, and also just as democrats to kind of tell our audience through those quad. and so the squad would be a to alizae, andrea, chicago, cortez, johan omar, rashida totally. and i, on a presley, it has since expanded to include people like courtney bush, uh, jamal bowman, summer lea, uh who, who you've seen the among the most kind of, outspoken critics of, of israel over the years. but when they started in 2018, i talked to the founders about this israel palestine was not at all central to what they were doing. they were trying to raise a minimum wage. they're trying to get health care for everybody. they're trying to do a green new deal and focus on climate change work in class issues. the basically the bernie sanders agenda from the 1st time he ran for president that included palestinian dignity. it wasn't that as if he had completely ignored it, but it was not by no means central his campaign. in february of 2019, just

a couple of days after they were sworn in you had the launch of this group called democrats dumped democratic majority for israel, which was basically spun out of a pack a pack as i'm sure your listeners knows that the major kind of pro israel lobby here in the united states, but it wasn't involved as a super pack in elections. it wasn't spending norm as amounts of money in individual races that was collecting from people, and people would donate to candidates. but it hadn't yet become a gigantic super pack. so damn if i did that and it, it was launched not a response to anything where she to, to leave for you on a more did. in particular, it was just in response to them being sworn in me because now you had to muslim members of congress who were going to on a follow a jet, a cli stand up on behalf of palestinian rights. and that was something that required its own kind of counter force. and the 1st, the 1st money they spent was against bernie sanders and 2020. then jamal bowman and

2020 who knocked off elliot angle who i'm, i'm sure you've been or go many time, and one of the most outspoken israel hawks in congress, who is the house foreign affairs chair a. and so for him to lose, did jamal bowman, a member of the squad, really shocked, they've got a pro israel advocacy world, and that's when a pack decided to also get in. so now you have not just deem it 5 spending $5.00 to $10000000.00 a year going after progressive democrats, but apex spending more than $30000000.00 trying to shape primaries and it, it ended up that israel palestine became through no choice of the squad zone of the issue that kind of dominated their time in congress, they came into office, try to do the same thing, raised the minimum wage, expand access to health care, reversed climate change generally produces the social democracy that bring up bernie sanders and vision to this campaign. instead, there's an, it was remarkable to go back while i was researching the book to realize just how

much of their time and office was spent on this. i've been interested in how 0 some this debate has become over many years that there used to be, you know, there, there's j street rise arrival to a pack. there are people i've seen along the way, daniel levy, you'll see bailing, whom i been interviewed, you know, leading is really government officials who've also had concern for this in a way there. and. and so they could play on both sides and look at the whole without looking at a one has to win and the other has to lose. does that make sense? it does. and what's interesting and the difference between a appreciate to leave any autumn are and i will see for instance that and you'll see and also summer lea, who 11 election in 2022. both of them said that they had really never spent any time thinking about this issue in 2018. and you'll see that this kind of famous flop of in their interview were afterwards. and actually in, in the interview she said look, she's kind of just gave up. she's all right. i'm not an expert on geo politics.

like, this isn't my issue. and, and like later talked about, she said, you know, this, this wasn't something that for puerto rican families in the bronx, was just discussed around the kitchen table. and so there's a reflective kind of sympathy for the occupied right population. but beyond that, you, you haven't thought about the details of 1948 or 67 or right, or 73. and so at that point, there becomes kind of a, a toss a lot back and forth over again who's, who's gonna, who's gonna win her allegiance on this issue. and i think that is rarely politics has gone so far to the right that there, there wasn't, there isn't kind of an element left in is really politics that has any serious social or political base that could reach out to them and say, look, ally yourself with us, and that's how we're going to get to the 2 state solution. me because nobody

serious over there believes that. i mean we, we can do already of the day we want to, we could do a show here on how in my view, how incompetent and, and in solving the palestinian leadership. sonya is, you know, but katie, to come to you on the broad side of the american political scene. and these issues, one of the thing is we just had an election in this country in the united states. and the democrats did rather well. but jo biden's, popularity is sinking right now. yeah, i mean air of american support in this, in particular is plummeting. you see a lot of, i would say justifiable rage in the face of what's happening now. i don't think there's a middle ground here. i think that the united states is funding one side. it's funding israel. israel is committing more crimes. they're not distinguishing between civilians and home us. and i think that it's a joke. that receipt it's wave is the one who's getting in trouble. when you had republican members of congress, talk about flattening guys,

that are frightening palestine into a parking lot. you had another republican comparing palestinian civilians to knock these. i think that receipt its way uh is kind of a loan in being a morally consistent voice on this issue. i think she understands that these people in palestine are real people. she understands that she can't move back into her family's home. i is to do is move to israel today and become a citizen. she can't even get back into her family's house uh that that they live you recently. so i think that the, the other thing is in terms of both sides, i mean it's not helpful to is really to do what they're doing. they, this is also not good for jews because israel claims, awfully i would say to represent all jews. they certainly don't represent me, they certainly don't represent the use of to his voice for peace tour at the statue of liberty on monday, we took over grand central station the other day. we're in washington dc. um, recently i think that uh, this is an extremist government as well and what they're doing is extremist and

united states is aiding and abetting in that. and in fact, they should not be doing that because of the lady law, which says that you should not be funding people or governments that are engaged in human rights abuses, which they obviously are mean every human rights organization with any credibility is condemning what is real is doing so what is the off ramp here? you know, from your perspective and i know that you've been in israel, you've, you've done, you know, uh doc to the journalism, to kind of look at the infrastructure of division of control. how do you, you know, i've got some members of congress i've been talking to, who been making the point to me that we got to, despite the rage and emotion of the moment begin thinking about what happens later . otherwise, this is yet again another forever war. lots of children down the road, both is really and palestinian will die decades from now if this is near, but how do you, do you see any constructive way to possibly look at an off ramp to this?

well one that's why i would just add to that in terms of how this is handful for israel and israel is, is that you know, a ceasefire would also be good for the hostages. if, if people who i would say either stupidly or cynically could claim to really care about the hostages, those people should be calling for a ceasefire. because if you want them released while they're alive, you need to cease fire so that they're not literally bombed in the buildings that they're being held in. but i think there just needs to be equal rights at the end of the occupation of israel, a palestinians in israel, and a quality under the law. equal rights for muslims, jews and christians just like there is and every other country. right, this could grow exponentially worse. right. and you often hear these really government say that they're justified in attacking the civilian population because of civilian population. supports a mosque, right? that is more morally absurd. well, i mean, that goes well, i mean, is that's true. think about it, if that's true, right? yeah, the next, the next machine that comes in to replace them,

us will also right similar to the you know, what i'm trying to get to my one of the great thing about is rally and well, what are they saying that is rarely israel voted for netanyahu right, right, here's the upstream, i'll say that it's a mock that's, that's fine and doing what they do to civilians because they both different for netanyahu, because we can point to lots of crimes against humanity and international law violations that is real, engage then. okay, so we're getting close to the end here. i also want to ask you that you are the, i think going through my mind is that how this plays geopolitically and, and i would say that i had daniel levy who was a very well known person heads the us middle east project. he was in his really negotiator, around the oslo accords and then geneva initiative. and he said, quote, unquote, on this show, it is pathetic and how little president biden god, in terms of humanitarian relief and concessions. john kirby, admiral john kirby, a spokesman to the national security council said in a call, i was on that. israel was at one point opposed to any humanitarian aid getting

through so that any aid getting through was because of the us doing that. but it really is really interesting questions about, you know, how much power we have in this. what we do at power for is delivering weapons and saying, hey, there are no limits on those weapons as we impose on saudi arabia and other places around the world. when we ship weapons is a one way street, where america is a supplicant and has no power in this relationship or is it something we have to kind of cheer lead? and finally, we get some influence down the road. katy? no, it's a choice. i mean, fighting could end this right now if he wanted to, that would be the right thing to do. morally, it would be strategic for him because he's going to maybe lose the next election over this. i don't think that's inconceivable. this i'd be brothers who are posters, have been looking at the data and they are a they've gone down significantly, especially among the air american population. the young people care about this

issue on blackboard. just care about this issues latino voters care about this issue. and i think that by the end is not just making a huge moral mistake. and this is someone who presented himself as a morally superior to donald trump, right? he pose the muslim band. i think what he's doing now is not standing at all with muslim americans. with air of americans with muslims and palestinians who are being ethnically funds right now as we speak. and i think it's an embarrassment and us has no moral authority here by the want to regain any moral authority to be you would have to actually and a stop what israel's doing right now. and then work on ending the occupation. but that the very least to cease fire is the, the bear me and that you have to do. because children, women, innocent civilians are being killed. and israel isn't even hiding it. they're just making a different excuse is totally distorting how international human rights while we're talking about human shield, which is we have to as

a whole other conversation. because according to amnesty international actually is real use of human shields, much more than a mock does. they miss you use that term, it doesn't mean that you have that. that's a whole other issue, but um yeah, biding is acting. uh it's, it's shameful. and i think the whole world looked at us as total hypocrite, right, and power. thank you, ryan. i want to get your, your very quickly in here. you know, basically, are you surprised that how little the buying administration has got when it's asked for humanitarian pauses when it's asked for a relief when it's asked for adjustments around these issues. it seems thus far. i am surprised that joe biden has not been more successful in turning netanyahu. it slightly less. yeah, i think, i think, i think that yahoo has kind of recognize the, the body ministration is not serious about what they're asking for that. that if they were it would they would be more likely deliver. so if there's

a winking and not that that is real, maybe getting there. i think the bottom line is that nothing surprises me because i expected world leaders after jared cushion or less left the white house and to just abandon the work that he did. this was a guy who came into the white house because he was married to a bunker, trump and a vodka. trump dad became president and he decided he was going to bring about middle east piece by ignoring the palestinian question. i thought that that was so obviously stupid that the 2nd that he was gone, the adults would get back in the room and they would, they would try to sort it out like adults would. instead, they took that guy's plan and tried to roll with it. and this is what we got as a result, very few people have articulated that way. it's very compelling. katie help restore the katie, help her show, and ryan grim star, the intercept, congratulations on your new book, which i really look forward to reading. thank you both. so much for being with us today. thank. and so what's the bottom line?

i read these really press regularly from the political left to the political right . the debate inside israel about the solve and see if it's democracy on how to characterize the opposition on how to deal with the fall out of october 7th, on how to deal with him off what to do after the war is over. and what people think about prime minister benjamin netanyahu, those debates in israel are for russia's robust, multi faceted. but in america, the debate is much more binary to sides, no shades of gray, and people pay with their careers in status on some occasions if they say something that offends it's literally dangerous to have strong opinions in the us. americans professed values are those that embrace debate diversity and point versus counterpoint in the struggles and get things right. america risk both its relevance and the world and the solvency of its own democracy. if it shuts down that debate and tries to squelch those voices who raise uncomfortable views, and that's the bottom line. the,

the house on this structure was actually destroyed in 2003. and the reason for that is that, sorry i made was actually convicted and sentenced to 7 live sentences by his pause in the killing of his reading. soldiers with these res, this is a, came in here. and this now very small hole actually represents a nightmare for this family. let me just show you these rand. he's actually drilled into the wall. now, why did they do that? that testing the thickness of the walls. so they know what equipment to use when they come to demolish this house. and the family is telling us there was no reason for these ratings to come in to that house at this time. right now, they simply don't know why he's raised one to 2 motors. now this house could be

demolished in the next 2 hours in the next 2 weeks. they simply don't know when that demolition is going to come. the

. there is no channel that covers world news like we do, we revisit places the state houses are really invest in that. and that's a privilege. as a journalist, a a the is very ami range causes. i'll shift a hospital as doctors as violence to stay with the patients until the end, the other one. and this is ronda mendez's algebra live from my headquarters. and the also coming up from aust claims to us for giving israel the green light to rate

gauze as big as hospital saying president biden is totally responsible.