40000 injuries, 1400000 people despite the we were just effective. for sure. community and goals are being targeted. no one, it saves your. everyone in israel's military need is justified. that rate on cars is the largest hospital by claiming it. houses have mass come on center, but many say what they've produced as evidence as cost and conclusive. so by targeting the, i'll shoot for complex and an operation running for hours, houses rout, committed a rule crime. this is inside store, the

hello that are on james space, but he is israel is accused to mass of using the al she for hospital in casa, as a cover for its military operations. is right, the forces surrounded and attacked it for days before launching a raid inside its grounds. they claimed profound what they called grab bags containing weapons and uniforms belonging to how much fighters but what they call evidence doesn't appear convincing. and many fear with these rightly military and soul control of the operation, it could fabricate facts to make the world believe its allegations and attacking hospitals, especially those tracing critically ill patients and babies is defined as a war crime on the international. we'll discuss all of this and about with a panel of experts foot. but for us this report from car like causes largest hospital on the front line of israel will rated for the 2nd time by is really forces military kids for one my stairs. they released this video

saying it shows soldiers supported by tanks inside the compound of the storming, at the previous day. for those of you who read are because when the soldiers came, they've uncovered items belonging to a mass. these images cannot be independent. they verified a few of the most interesting things that we have found totally confirmed without any doubt that some of systematic team uses hospice in the military operations in violation of international law. and what we have found, i think, is only the tip of the iceberg. yeah, it must denies using the hospital as a base cooling a lie to justify israel's destruction of causes medical infrastructure, doctors, health officials and witnesses also reject israel's claims as false. it is as it read and also made. there is no, i'm a member of i'm us in the civil as we said, there is no immediate that activity. an issue that there is anything happens when they entered the hosp to be done either or what's happened. it's around the us with

us inside those to be done on of the people in the hosted with us, the median. the us president however, maintains that how much is operation from causes largest hospital but has failed to provide evidence. one thing has been established is that how mos does have headquarters, width is material below the shots. and i suspect others despite calls for ceasefire from around the world and the un security council passing a resolution quoting for extended humanitarian pauses. israel's attacks haven't stopped. the us lead us as it is not realistic to expect israel to stop its war on

garza hospitals unprotected under international humanitarian, lou. but in israel's military operation, very target's design was military incursion into on chief a hospital in guys, a city is totally unacceptable. hospitals out of not by 2 grounds. we're extremely worried for the safety of stuff and patients. a protecting them is by the amount of hundreds of patients aligning the hospitals, car doors of thousands, may palestinians of sheltering within the ocean compound. they have nowhere else to go. as israel forming continues relentlessly across the street. car legs for inside story. the, well,

let's discuss all of this further with our panel of guess. and also we have eric foss, the c o, the norwegian aide committee, a humanitarian organization, working with health related projects in the middle east. he's worked as a search in, in gaza since 1994, including joined several was in new york a call. you mohammed is special adviser on the right to health that human rights watch. and in london, we have told us, but minus the director of the international state crime initiative at queen mary university of london. thank you all for joining us here. on inside story, since the bombardment of gauze has started, it seems that health facilities, hospitals, ambulances have been in the following line. and since the ground defensive started, it seems to targets, hoping the hospitals in garza city with the al she for hospital target. number one, eric, you know this hospital so well, you're sitting in the past, you've been on the bombardment in gaza. this one you're watching from afar. how's

it made you feel watching the pictures you're saying? oh, i think this is kind of a lot of the it's it's, that's a huge impact on the, on the civilians decided to go. so since this is a chief, i use the main hospital that's really rather can go when they has serious illness. and well, to see, you know, is that the infrastructure is breaking down in the hospital have been targeted. the benefits with the several rockets, good days proceeding there right there. and now they are. and i actually got the message just now from the, from the hospital saying that the state of soldiers moving about inside the hospital. they have more than 650 patients and the there are still bothering about the situation for these patients. okay, thomas,

you are international legal x. but on this panel tell us hospitals all protected places on the international law. but what are the exemptions to that? so hospitals are particularly protective. the under international law and the exception will be and the way they can lose that protection if there are facts on the ground which, which indicates that they're being used to put the, the, uh, army, the, the opposing army in danger. and so the, we don't have those facts, we haven't seen any of those facts yet. and that's something that will come out of when we look at accountability. but even so, even if they knew they're protected spaces, we don't the general principles of in last year who monitor and law of caution, that's about warning people and evacuated if possible, which is not possible in this situation because we have a hospital in a war zone them, i'm the principles of proportionality and military necessity and it's hard to see

how we can match those 2 up in this situation. what possible military necessity would require this kind of attack. and so it's, it seems on the face of it to be just not proportional the way that civilians have been come into the line of fire. a more than that, we have not just the obligation not to attract medical facilities is rather the occupying power has the responsibility to keep these hospitals open, keep them supplied and keep them going. and when we think about the kind of the proportionality um the protective stages, we don't think about just the hospital today and tomorrow we have to think about its supply lines. and it's a bill of things to operate in a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks from now. and that's something that has to be taken into our time before the pac a k on this hospital is not just a hospital, its the biggest health complex it. it spreads over several city blocks,

but also it became a place of refuge for so many who had to leave the homes. were looking for a place of safety. i'm told at one point else you've had 45000 people living in that. yeah, absolutely. uh, a number of internally displaced people coming out in hospitals because they believe that these hospitals have the kinds of protections on the international humanitarian and all that other guess have you do to them. and those protections can really, really be moved on the very specific circumstances as human rights watch. we contest any other claims made by the user. the defense force is based on the information that we have available that these hospital and these disabilities are being used for mother t purposes. i think it's important to note as well. but thus far, israel has only mentioned about. ready fine hospitals,

which they allege on the news by from us and they austin, to 6 hospitals and gaza associate for the largest. and as of november 10th, the whole household analyzation has a note to back a team out of the 56 hospitals. and that's more than half of the hospitals and $46.00 out of $72.00 primary care clinics. we're forced to shut down because of that page from the task. ready they're not gonna disappear in a few, as we, they find a symbol outstanding questions about the alleged evidence being presented by either of us fall off. can any evidence be verified? does the evidence presented thus far? just define the tax on the entire health care system. and if these attacks are you about from us, why has the well hello can i vision also report to the tax on health care? the west by the way from us has no control. and this is why we believe the tax on hospitals and healthcare should be investigated as well. kind. i'd like to come

back to the obligations that as well as making a little later in the program and to that raid that took place inside the hospital . but thomas, 1st that this wasn't the 1st time the hospital came under attack, there was a convoy of ambulances that would have to and to leave the hospital to go to take very ill patients. the agent that was struck on november, the 3rd and the hospital ran out of fuel, which meant that all sorts of equipment, including the incubators for the babies. and everyone has seen those really distressing pictures of those babies wrapped in blankets. from a legal point to view what those 2 things war crimes. so yeah it's, it's the same thing. an attack on a medical facility includes stopping the supplies, getting to my medical facilities. so that would include the stopping of electricity, oxygen supplies, things like that. and any attack on a, i'm, be lenses or accommodated around lenses is,

is included in what the protections provide for protections of the civilian objects . and the law is very care on this a very strong on this. there's no kind of, there's lots of things contested in international humanitarian law. but this is not one of them that the attack on these kinds of affinities, including the be stopping of supplies, creating conditions in which people become endangered inside, or even just making a doctor's work difficult are ex, here war crimes. eric, the right of course, took place and these riley military said it was a precise and targeted operation against a mouse in a specified area of she for a hospital initially 6 times and a 100 come on those now they be making allegations about c for hospital since 2014, at least you will that and she for hospital in 2014. just be absolutely clear to us . have you ever seen any how much fighters in i'll shoot for a hospital? have you seen any come on centers and your time in the hospital of these claims

being repeat the 1st time during the war, 20082009 again in 2014 to i have been in this hospital during these morris. i also have been there once or twice a year, every year. so for the last 2 years, and i have a ton moved freely. i bought a new course. wouldn't be heard this other day since we where we took them very serious that because it this up more crime to, to mix military stuff with the hospital. so therefore, we made the own investigations be off the record of the stuff in uber and multiple, most people re read. as i said, i have my colleagues, we have been able to move freely about the whole speed. they've never seen any so i oh, but the, the,

the both i wonder if is trying to is really the differing between civilian stuff. a made a 3rd because seems how moss is responsible for the whole civil society. of course there are how mos, the people that are responsible for health care. i'm the menace joe held some these type of stuff, but they are not the go uh is a good target. somebody come up because a bid us come off military stop. so therefore to use the word hall mos all the time . it's important to distinguish between military activities the maintaining this is civil society. but they have never seen any sign of a military activity or, and they come on central. i would also like to commend that when they hit the day

before they uh, they actually enter the hospital, they talk, it said the oxygen. uh, it's called some type the plant which actually we have helped building. and we have built the oaks and the systems and all the hospitals and also training the stuff to maintain these. these are not military objects, but they're extremely important in the house because apart from the power they are important for the interest rate. there's 30 important for old, critically ill patients. so by the, by removing this possibility, they have the 2 are it to the situation for all patients in the hospital, particularly all those know injured in the, in the activities. when they launch the raid, they put out of statements quite a long statement. the end of it says, we call on all have mass terrace present in the hospital to surrender. but what no harm us and fights is they've arrested and non surrendered. and then shortly off to

the minute treat spokesman of the israeli army, appear at the hospital. and he took people on what he said was a one take tool. so it wasn't edited a tool, although they did delete the video and then re post it with it slightly changed a few hours later. let's just listen to one of the things that the military spokesman left on the colonel jonathan can reach us, said during that one that is the one take tool. these weapons have absolutely no business being inside the hospital. the only reason they're here is because come us put them here because they use this place like many of the hospitals and ambulances, and sensitive facilities inside the go the trip folder release administrative purposes. so there's something called rifles here, even the munitions k. um, you have on shore seen all of that video, does it convince you,

i think even if this well actually is trial has not demonstrated that the ensuing hospital attacks were proportions. and i think proportionality is not the important components of the international humanitarians or framework that should be brought into this conversation. or warning policies must take constant care to many miles home to civilians and attacks and hospitals being used to collect what is referred to as ash, palm filter the enemy austell. i don't know if these attacks are indiscriminate or disproportionate as of the use of explosive weapons, densely populated areas heights, in this industry, the tax, the tax in which the anticipated nonsense has been getting nice and property excessive compared to the mothers against this proportion. and so these attack spiking style have in our view being excessive and this proportion and they

are magnified with respect to the hospitals. since even the split of an attack or mine. and that damage can have massive life with implications for patients and their caregivers. we have seen, for instance, in the normal explain since they use a gunman standing on top of a hospitals shooting at communities. that government can then on the international being a top shot. but you can bomb the antonio hospital complex. even the united states government does not support the tax from the on hospitals as a personal proportion, delicate critic game for one, i should not be left off with this conversation. earlier in the week, the is really military also showed a video of the run tc children's hospital. again showing some weapons that were found that thomas, what do you make of eric's point? these could just be a god forces and left

a few weapons that i'm in the last time i went to jerusalem, i think it was during co read. i have to have a go because of it test and i have to go through god to get into a clinic in israel. so is it really any different this? yeah, i mean, i think, i think it's right that we have to consider for, for so that was in the sense if we find weapons inside the hospital, that indicates perhaps the there are, there's some blurring of the lines between military and civilian objectives on the pop part of from us, if we accept 5, we can say that perhaps a war crime has been committed in that place, but doesn't give you car belongs to committed war crimes. as a response to that, that's not how the law works beforehand. busy the principal never goes away, and so you have to have facts on the ground. let's show that it was military necessity to attack some of these. it's relations and to attack a hospital you would have to have, you would have to have a refusal facts on the ground showing

a mass of military presents inside in order to justify it at all. so the idea that there might be crime nor crime is happening on one side, is in no way or a dream lice, to commit disproportionate attack on the civilian objective like this on the other side. and that seems to be the argument that's being made, but that doesn't. that's not how international humanitarian law works. you don't, you don't justify one crime with another crime. you, you, you must prosecute and hold accountability for both of eric. if we compare what israel has now said it's found and you, i'm sure i've seen that video. it doesn't seem to be the same thing as they were talking about before the right. they've been talking about this massive come on and control center, a network of tunnels, access from the tunnels to the woods of the hospital. let me just play you a little bit of what another of the military spokesman. i wrote down your

a gallery said on the 1st day of the ground rule about what was underneath. i'll ship a kite as the red buildings, as i mentioned, are building the commodities using meaning. he does, his commanding control in different departments of the hospital like the room getting room and others. he uses these places in order to do co bonded control for their activities, launching rockets, etc, etc. well eric key named if you listen, all of that press comments on different parts of the building that will be used for different things. that is no, well they've been able to prove visit no, of course not them. it's. busy i would say it's would be impossible. uh, unless this is something that has been installed by law space. we have been there in these building some of the seen and these sign notice they also claim that the

radiology department is parked on should be some kind of and trans. yeah. and actually they have to search through the department destroying it as i go to information from my colleague state of sabotage. no older involves the missing equipment to which i get new smoke military. uh, no. is it a military importance? they have also, before they enter the hospital, there was a small, brisk, shrewd thing at the hospital enduring. and in fact, killing at least one of the nurses in the hospital there. but when they entered there was no gun fight. the, according to my colleagues, is that no, no gunshot being fired inside the whole blood, that means that there was no type thing. there wasn't a band, no armed soldiers inside the whole school when the, the idea of entered. so it's very difficult to,

to understand how they can maintain these claims to the i'm not just claims, of course, by israel, that claims by the united states as well. said it had its own independent intelligence of what was going on. and we heard that from president by when he gave that news conference in san francisco. but i think it was another thing that he said in that news conference in san francisco that was, was listening to tacitly. he talked about what these right in the military are doing right now. they're also bringing in incubators for bringing in other other means to help people in the hospital. and they've given the doctors and i'm told the doctors and nurses, and personal and opportunity to get out of harm's way. so this is a different story, and i believe it was the current current before an indiscriminate came up that, that, that, that, those last words, this is

a different story than i believe was occurring before in discriminant, foaming indiscriminate. bullying is how joe barton describes that is not a war crime that certainly on the face of the might amongst a little crime again, based on the kinds of evidence that together. i think it's also important to point out that bind earlier comments about these 80 minutes you providing hospitals that incubate this is a little disingenuous. it's like dripping out of someone's heart and then giving them a band a aid to cover up to. and so i think this must also be called out the, the policy of the united states government as well as other global leaders who are um, contributions to the military assistance and also city as well. but this last statement, i think is absolutely important to note, given that the us itself has for your patients on attacking hospitals in the way in

which either out is kind of get back in the hospitals. because even on the basis of the, i think it's important that the, the us and all the level of this call is vital for the language. just engaging in minutes of your task on hospitals, across guys as well as the last thing that i think it's also important to recognize some of the street around was unfolding. and are we focusing very much i'll see for the types of hospitals, but human rights watch has previously found that these visuals part of these are committing crimes against humanity upon states and persecution. and so the ongoing attacks on hospitals must be understood in this one of the cycle context. and because of separate these kinds attacks from the ongoing crimes of prostate and crimes against humanity and persecution collectors punishment that are kind of just holding in palestine. thomas, we don't have much time, but very quickly. is there any prospect, do you think of international law catching up with all of this? yes, the international criminal court site and investigation. are you hopeful that this

will go somewhere? us, i'm not hopeful the international criminal law or it's not the law itself is going to be able to do anything that quickly enough. and i think we do need to think of this wider context. we're starting to see starting to be clear now that we're looking at a wider context of attacks on civilians attacks on civilian objectives. and i think we need to still start thinking about and we just start talking about the, the stages of genocide. one of the stages of genocide is systematic weakening, which is with withdrawal of health care indiscriminate attacks on civilians. and i think about maybe if, if, if the court was to take a case to the international court of justice on a tracing basis, not a criminal court. but again, we could get an order from the i, c, j to israel, to stop the fist. what they're doing while we have further investigation. but otherwise inflectional criminal law is

a slow acting pro fast and it's not going to help things on the ground. now what we need now is we need civil society to put pressures on their own governments with demonstrations. and we need states to stars that treating a israel as model of standing member of the international community. we need to look at bts and other non bottom. ready is resistance around the world in order to put pressure on the state of israel stuff. what us doing? well, thank you very much. eric can thank you tool. i guess eric foss a, came ahmed and thomas look minus if you tuned in late, you can watch the whole program again on our website at any time. go to i, which is there a dot com you'll come at. and so pap suggestions for future topics to be discussed here. a gratefully received on facebook at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story on x, or is it still? i still call it twitter. it's at a inside story for me, james, based on the team, even though ha, stay safe. i'll see you soon. bye bye for now. the

oh no. i'm not located on the look into them. look, i'm gonna pull them up with me in the little say that they will see the the the, the,

the, the levels that the shed actually on the officials level. these are the in all these little by us. it does say that friends actual to say that monday, that actual the how to get us out of town. i just saw it on the thought of a good. yeah. do you the some of the just hold on it's about the fees dominican republic, defense ministers visiting the board up to the 1st time this country. what did it close to a neighboring hate? that decision was made pressure efficient farm is just still thinking of can the most that cru river which the to country shit, the haitian site is suffering from drought and have a run like twitter, a gate that fall names. they continue to dig. despite the build up to the dominican

troops on the other side, the boot the dominican government wants to show of what it's doing. but at the moment, that's really only see if a show they can't actually do anything to stop that canal, which is on the haitian side of the survivors whose from the rubble gauze is largest refugee gases target has yes. again, 5 is ready as try the, the provide them and this is just the online from the also coming up is really someone does remain inside gauze as largest hospitals. the army claims is found a tunnel and the body of a captive nearby. but how a mazda denies operation from all ship a group of you and x.