802-0000 industries. 1.4000000 people just placed the we were just effective. for sure. community and goals are being targeted. no one, it saves your everyone in israel. some of the tree need is justified that rate on the causes largest hospital by claiming it houses have mass come on center, but many say what they've produced as evidence is pos and conclusive. so by targeting the, i'll shoot for complex and an operation running for hours house as well. committed a rule crime. this is inside store, the

hello that are on james space. but he is israel, as accuse to mass of using the l chief a hospital in casa, as a couple of for its military operations. is right, the forces surrounded and attacked it for days before launching a raid inside its grounds. they claimed profound what they called grab bags containing weapons and uniforms belonging to how most places. but what they call evidence doesn't appear convincing. and many fear with these riley, military and sole control of the operation. it could fabricate facts to make the world believe its allegations. i'm the attacking hospitals, especially those treating critically ill patients and babies is defined as a war crime on the international. we'll discuss all of this in a moment with a panel of experts foot. but for us, this report from car like causes the largest hospital on the front line of israel will rated for the 2nd time by is really forces military kids for one

mouse stairs. they released this video saying it shows soldiers supported by tanks inside the compound of the storming at the previous day. well, those of you who read out is ready. soldiers came, they've uncovered items belonging to him. as these images cannot be independent, be verified. a few of the most interesting things that we have phone, talk to the confirm without any doubts about some of the systematic team uses hospice in their mandatory operations in violation of international law. and what we have found, i think, is only the tip of the iceberg. yeah, is a must deny is using the hospital as a base, calling a lie to justify israel's destruction of causes medical infrastructure, doctor's health officials and witnesses also reject israel's claims as false. it is as the green and ultimate that there is no on a member of how much in the civil has to be done. there is no immediate activity.

an issue that there is anything happens when they enter the hubs to be done on it or what's happening is around the inside those to be done on of the people in the hospital civilians. the us presidents however, maintains that how much is operation from causes largest hospital but has failed to provide evidence? one thing has been established is that how mos does have headquarters, width is material below this hospital. and i suspect others despite calls for ceasefire from around the world and the un security council passing a resolution quoting for extended humanitarian pauses. israel's attacks haven't

stopped. the us lead us as it is not realistic to expect israel to stop its war. on garza, the hospitals are protected under international humanitarian, lou, but in israel's military operation, very target's design was military incursion into i'm chief i hospital in guys. i city is totally unacceptable. hospitals out of not by to grounds weird, extremely worried for the safety of stuff. and patients protecting them is by the amount of hundreds of patients aligning the hospitals, car doors of thousands more palestinians, a sheltering within the ocean compound. they have nowhere else to go. as israel informing continues relentlessly across the street car legs for inside story

the. well, let's discuss all of this further with our panel of guess. and also we have eric foss, the c o, the norwegian aide committee, a humanitarian organization, working with health related projects in the middle east. he's worked as a search in, in gaza since 1994, including joined several, was in new york. a call you mohammed is special adviser on the right to health that human rights watch and in london, we have told us but minus the director of the international state crime initiative at queen mary university of london. thank you all for joining us here. on inside story, since the bombardment of gauze has started, it seems that health facilities, hospitals, ambulances have been in the following line. and since the ground defensive started, it seems to targets, hoping the hospitals in garza city with the al schieffer hospital target. number one, eric, you know this hospital, so while you're sitting in the past you've been on the bottom. bob mentioned garza,

this one you're watching from afar. how's it made you feel watching the pictures you're saying? oh, i think this is terrible of the it's, it's a huge impact on the on those civilians decided to go. so since this is a, she probably is the main hospital that's really where they can go when they has serious illness and have up to see, you know, is the, the infrastructure is breaking down of the hosp to have been targeted. the benefits with the several rockets, good days proceeding there right there. and now they are. and i actually got the message just now from the, from the hospital saying that they're still the soldiers moving about inside the hospital. they have more than 650 patients and the there are

still bothering about the situation for these patients. okay, thomas c o r international legal experts on this panel tell us hospitals all protected places on the international law. but what are the exemptions to that? so hospitals are particularly protective elder and slash the law and the exception will be and the way they can lose that protection if there are facts on the ground which, which indicates that they're being used to put the, the uh army, the, the opposing army in danger. and so the, we don't have those facts, we haven't seen any of those facts yet. and that's something that will come out of when we look at accountability. but even so, even if they knew they're protected spaces, we don't the general principles of and lastly, who monitor and law of caution. that's about warning people and evacuating if

possible, which is not possible in this situation because we have a hospital in a war zone. the principles of proportionality and military necessity, and it's hard to see how we can match those 2 up in this situation. what possible military necessity would require this kind of attack. and so it's, it seems on the face of it to be just not proportional the way that civilians have been come into the line of fire. a more than that, we have not just the obligation not to attract medical facilities is rather the occupying power has the responsibility to keep these hospitals opens, keep them supplied and keeps them going. and when we think about the kind of uh, the proportion obviously um the protective stages. we don't think about just the hospital today and tomorrow we have to think about its supply lines and its ability to operate in a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks from now. and that's something that has to be taken into a time before the pack. a k on this hospital is not just a hospital,

its the biggest health complex it, it, it spreads over several city blocks, but also it became a place of refuge for so many who had to leave the homes, were looking for a place of safety. i'm told at one point else you've had 45000 people living in that. yeah, absolutely. uh, a number of internally displaced people coming out in hospitals because they believe that these hospitals have the kinds of protections on the international humanitarian and all that other guess. have you do to them and those protections can really, really be moved on the very specific circumstances as human rights watch. we contest any other claims made by the user. the defense force was based on the information that we have available that these hospital and these disabilities are being used for mother t purposes. i think it's important to note as well,

but task is vile, has only mentioned about. ready fine hospitals, which they allege are being used by from us, and they austin, to 6 hospitals and gaza associate for being largest. and as of november 10th, the whole household analyzation has a note to that 18 out of the $56.00 hospitals that that's more than hospitals. and 46 out of 72 primary care clinics. we're forced to shut down because of damage from the task. ready they're not covalent just in a few, as we, they find a symbol outstanding questions about the alleged evidence being presented by either of us fall off. can any evidence be verified? does the evidence presented taskbar? just define the tests on the entire health care system. and if these attacks are really about from us, why has the well hello can i vision also reported attacks on health care. the west, by the way from us has no control. and this is why we believe the tax on hospitals

and healthcare should be investigated as well. kind. i'd like to come back to the obligations that as well as making a little later in the program and to that raid that took place inside the hospital . but thomas, 1st that this wasn't the 1st time the hospital came under attack, there was a cold roy of ambulances that would have to and to leave the hospital to go to take very ill patients. the agent that was struck on november, the 3rd and the hospital ran out of fuel, which meant that all sorts of equipment, including the incubators for the babies. and everyone has seen those really distressing pictures of those babies wrapped in blankets. from a legal point of view, what those 2 things war crimes so yeah it's, it's the same thing. an attack on a medical facility includes stuffing that supplies, getting flipped medical facilities, so that would include the stopping of electricity, oxygen supplies, things like that. and any attack on a, a, be lenses or

a combination of ambulances is, is included in what the protections provide for protections of the civilian objects . and the law is very clear on this a very strong on this. there's no kind of, there's lots of things contested in international humanitarian law. but this is not one of them that the attack on these kinds of affinities, including the be stopping of supplies, creating conditions in which people become endangered inside, or even just making a doctor's work difficult are ex, here war crimes. eric, the right of course, took place and these, right, the military said it was a precise and tom cuz he the operation against a mouse in a specified area of she for a hospital initially 6 times and a 100 come on those. now they be making allegations about see, for hospital, since 2014 at least, you with that and she for hospital in 2014. just be absolutely clear to us. have

you ever seen any how much fighters in i'll shoot for a hospital. have you seen any come on centers in your time in the hospital of these claims being repeat the 1st time during the war, 20082009 again in 2014 to i have been in this hospital during these morse, i also have been there once or twice a year every year. so for the last 2 years and i am, i can move freely about. and of course we're going to be heard this other day since we where we took them very serious. that because it is something more crime to, to mix military stuff with the hospital. so therefore we made the own investigations be off the record of the stuff in uber and molto most people re read. as i said, i have my colleagues,

we have been able to move freely about the whole speed. they've never seen any sign um, but the, the, the boat, i wonder if it is right is really the differing between civilian stuff. a made a 3rd because seems how mazda is responsible for the whole civil society. of course, there are homeless people that are responsible for health care. i'm the meanest jo. hell, some this type of stuff, but they are not. the girl is a good target. some the come up because a bid us come off military stop. so therefore to use the word how mos all the time . it's important to distinguish between military activities the maintaining this is civil society. but they have never seen any sign of a military activity or, and they come on central. i would also like to commend that when they hit the day

before they, uh, they actually enter the hospital. they target the, the oxygen uh, called some type, the plant which actually we have helped building. and we have built the oaks and the systems and all the hospitals and also training the stuff to maintain these. these are not military objects, but they're extremely important in the house because apart from the power they are important for the ink to bait. there's 30 important for old, critically ill patients. so by the, by removing this possibility, they have the, the, to are it to the situation for all patients in the hospital, particularly all those know injured in the, in the activities when they launch the raid they put out of statements quite a long statement. the end of it says, we call on all how mass terrace present in the hospital to surrender. that would

know how much of a fight is they arrested in non surrendered. and then shortly off to the minute treat spokesman of the israeli army, appear at the hospital. and he took people on what he said was a one take tool. so it wasn't edited a tool, although they did delete the video and then re post it with it slightly changed a few hours later. let's just listen to one of the things that the military spokesman left on the colonel johnson can refuse said during that one that is the one take tool and these weapons have absolutely no business being inside the hospital. the only reason they're here is because come us put them here because they use this place like many other hospitals and ambulances, insensitive facilities inside the go, the trips folder release administrative purposes. so there's toxic arrivals here. even the munition k on you have, i'm sure,

seen all of that video. does it convince you, i think, even if this will actually is trial has not demonstrated that the ensuing hospital attacks were proportions. and i think proportionality isn't the important components of the international humanitarians or framework that should be brought into this conversation. or warning policies must take constant care to many miles home to civilians and attacks and hospitals being used to collect what is referred to as ash, palm filter, the enemy austell. i don't know if these attacks are indiscriminate or disproportionate as well. the use of explosive weapons, densely populated areas heights, in this industry, the tax, the tax in which the anticipated nonsense has been getting nice and property excessive compared to the mothers against this proportion. and so these

attack spiking style have in our view being excessive and this proportion and they are magnified with respect to the hospitals. since even the spread of an attack for mine. and that damage can have massive life with implications for patients and their caregivers. we're seeing, for instance, in the normal or that explain since they use a gunman standing on top of a hospitals shooting at the military. that government can then on the international being a top shot. but you can bomb the antonio hospital complex. even the united states government does not support the tax from the on hospitals as a personal proportion, delicate critic game for one, i should not be left off with this conversation. earlier in the week, the is really military also showed a video of the run tc children's hospital. again showing some weapons that were

found that thomas, what do you make of eric's point? these could just be a god force of the left, a few weapons the and the last time i went to jerusalem, i think it was during co read. i have to have a go because of a test. and i have to go through god to get into a clinic in israel. so is it really any different this? yeah, i mean, i think, i think it's right that we have to consider for force. obviously, in the sense, if we find weapons inside the hospital, that indicates perhaps the there are, there's some blurring of the lines between military and civilian objectives on the pop part of from us. if we accept that, we can say that perhaps a war crime has been committed in that place, but doesn't give you car belongs to committed war crimes. as a response to that, that's not how the law works before she validated the principle never goes away. and so you have to have facts on the ground. let's show that it was military necessity to attract some of these ins relations. i'm to attack a hospital,

you would have to have, you would have to have a refusal facts on the ground showing a mass of military presents inside in order to justify it at all. so the idea that there might be crime nor crime is happening on one side, is in no way or a dream lice, to commit disproportionate attack on the civilian objective like this on the other side. and that seems to be the argument that's being made, but that doesn't. that's not how international humanitarian law works. you don't, you don't justify one crime with another crime. you, you, you must prosecute and hold accountability for both of eric. if we compare what israel has now said, it's found a new, i'm sure i've seen that video. it doesn't seem to be the same thing as they were talking about before the right. they've been talking about this massive come on and control center, a network of tunnels, access from the tunnels to the woods of the hospital. let me just play you

a little bit of what another of the military spokesman admiral daniel a gallery said on the 1st day of the ground war about what was underneath. i'll ship the kite as the red buildings as i mentioned, a building the commodities using meaning. he does his command and control in different departments of the hospital like the ram, getting room and others. he uses these places you know that to do. co bonded control for their activities, launching rockets, etc, etc. well eric key named if you listen all of that press comments on different parts of the building that will be used for different things. that is no. well, they've been able to prove visit no, of course not them it's. busy busy i would say it's would be impossible. uh, unless this is something that has been installed by law space. we have been there

in these buildings on the scene and these sign notice they also claim that the radiology department is parked on should be some kind of and trans. yeah. and actually they have to search through the department destroying it as i go to information for my colleague, state of sabotage. know, well, that involves the missing equipment to which again, it's not military, you know, is it a military importance? they have also, before they enter the hospital, there was a small, brisk, shrewd thing at the halls enduring. and in fact, killing at least one of the nurses in the hospital. but when they entered there was no gun fight. the, according to my colleagues, is that no, no gunshot being fired inside the whole blood. that means that there was no type thing. there was randal armed soldiers inside the whole school when the,

the idea of entered. so it's very difficult to, to understand how they can maintain these claims. so they are not just claims, of course, by israel, that claims by the united states as well said it had its own independent intelligence of what was going on. and we heard that from president biden when he gave that news conference in san francisco. but i think it was another thing that he said in that news conference in san francisco that was was listening to cas lee . he talked about what these writing the military are doing right now. they're also bringing in incubators for bringing in other other which means to help the people in the hospital. and they've given the doctors and i'm told the doctors and nurses and the personal opportunity to get out of harm's way. so this is a different story then i believe it was

a cat occurring before an indiscriminate k. i'm of that, that, that, that, those last words, this is a different story than i believe was occurring before in discriminant, foaming indiscriminate. bullying is how joe barton describes, that is not a war crime. that certainly on the face of the mice, the most doable crime again, based on the kinds of evidence today to gather. i think it's also important to point out that bind earlier comments about these 80 minutes you providing hospitals. the incubators is a little disingenuous. it's like dripping out of someone's heart and then giving them a band a to cover up to. and so i think this must also be called out the, the policy of the united states government as well as other global know leaders who are um, contributions to the military assistance and also city as well. but this last statement, i think is absolutely important to note,

given that the us itself has for your patients on attracting hospitals in the way in which is around is kind of get back in the hospitals. because even on the basis of the, i think it's important that the, the us and all the level of this call is vital for the language. just engaging in minutes of your task, hospitals across guys as well as the last thing that i think it's also important to recognize some of the street around was unfolding. and are we focusing very much i'll see for the types of hospitals. but human rights watch has previously found that these videos part of these are committing crimes against humanity upon states and persecution. and so the ongoing attacks on hospitals must be understood in this one of the cycle context. and because of separate these kinds attacks from the ongoing crimes of prostate and crimes against humanity and persecution, collectors punishment that are kind of the folding in palestine. thomas, we don't have much time, but very quickly. is there any prospect?

do you think of international law catching up with all of this? yes, the international criminal court site and investigation. are you hopeful that this will go somewhere? i'm not hopeful the international criminal law or it's not the law itself is going to be able to do anything that quickly enough. and i think we do need to think of this wider context. we're starting to see starting to be clear now that we're looking at a wider context of attacks on civilians attacks on civilian objectives. and i think we need to stay or start thinking about. and we just start talking about the, the stages of genocide. what are the stages of genocide is systematic weakening, which is withdrawal of health care in discriminative attacks on civilians. and i think about maybe if, if, if a court was to take a case to the international court of justice on the tracing basis, not a criminal court. but again, we could get an order from the i, c, j to israel,

to stop the fist. what they're doing while we have further investigation, but otherwise, international criminal law is a slow acting process and it's not going to help things on the ground. now what we need now is we need civil society to put pressures on their own governments with demonstrations. and we need states to stars that treating a israel as model of standing member of the international community. we need to look at media as another non bottom. ready is resistance around the world in order to put pressure on the state of israel stuff. what us doing? well, thank you very much. eric can thank you tool. i guess eric foss a, came ahmed and thomas look minus if you tuned in late, you can watch the whole program again on our website at any time. go to i, which is there a dot com, you'll come up. so pop suggestions for future topics to be discussed here. a gratefully received on facebook at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story on x, or is it still as i still call it twitter? it's at a inside story for me, james space and the team here. and so i'll stay safe. i'll see you soon. bye bye

for now. the this is the real, this is hell, joe. and this is. this is just now that you heard, it seems that here from the area of where we are constantly and ask along being fired or from the areas of the goals district. and they have been targeted by the is really very close to the gossip or the we've seen a lot of times last fall, but i will say we are seeing increasing numbers. this is giving a picture of what kind of to be on this front. in 543, the lot up front takes on the big issues. this isn't a one off just talking about a systemic issue here. black labs don't really matter,

and the police were unflinching questions is war with were wanting to imminent rigorous debate. people were dying because of lots of medical treatments, challenging conventional was the fact that people are starting to get angry about this is in itself a sign of progress. join me more for me on hill for upfront one, out 0 as these really war. i'm going to that escalates out his ears. correspondence are on the ground. it is impossible for civil defense teams to come to this part of the refuge account that was due cars rushing to the hospital. he is really military is pushing deeper into jobs. i didn't know fed option just to evacuate to the southern areas which cause it to be also a very risky journey. both diplomats wait for a break through bombardment. thing guys that continue. and the families waiting for a ton of their relatives. people are really worried right now that they are basically collective punishment and only going to continue with a niche. it depends on which is 0. the stream is back and you

can be part of it. join me out of these forces in the rest of the team for a 1st hand look beyond the headlines and have a say on how your stories told. for new voices and unique perspective. the stream on all just the or the smoke rises or the gaza as, as really strikes target. the region once again moving 11300 palestinians has now been killed since to stop the color that i'm associated. paying the says out of their life from the will. so coming.