on the go and me tonight out is there is only move i left, is that the, this is where we, the sex allies from out is there is move i last available in your favorite types to just that for it and type to move the new app from out to 0, new at using is it the, israel's military data is justified that rate on the goals as much as possible by claiming it, houses have mass come on center for many say what they've produced as evidence is pos and conclusive. so by targeting the, i will shoot for complex and an operation running for hours, houses rel, commit to the wall crime. this is inside store the

hello there on james space for years. israel is accused to mass of using the al she for hospital in casa, as a cover for its military operations. is right, the forces surrounded and attacked it for days before launching a raid inside its grounds. they claimed profound what they called grab bags containing weapons and uniforms belonging to how much fight has. but what they call evidence doesn't appear convincing. and many fear with these rightly military and soul control of the operation. it could fabricate facts to make the world believe its allegations, and attacking hospitals, especially those tracing critically ill patients and babies is defined as a war crime on the international. we'll discuss all of this in a moment with a panel of experts foot. but for us, this report from car like causes the largest hospital on the front line of israel's will rated for the 2nd time by is really forces military kids for one

of stairs. they released this video saying it shows soldiers supported by tanks inside the compound of the storming at the previous day. well, those of you who read are of is ready. soldiers came, they've uncovered items belonging to a mass. these images cannot be independent, be verified. a few of the most interesting things that we have, phone talk, let me confirm without any doubt the come of systematic team use as hospitals in their military operations in violation of international law. and what we have found, i think, is only the tip of the iceberg. must denies using the hospital as a base cooling a lie to justify israel's destruction of causes medical infrastructure. doctors, health officials and witnesses also reject israel's claims as false. it is as they read and also made, there is no on a member of i'm us in the civil as we said, there is no immediate activity. an issue that there is anything happened when they entered the hubs to be done either or what's happened. it's around us,

but the insides out to be done on of the people in the hosted with us the media and the us president however, maintains that how much is operation from causes largest hospital but has failed to provide evidence. one thing has been established is that a mouse does have headquarters weddings material below this hospital. and i suspect others yes. despite calls for ceasefire from around the world and the un security council passing a resolution quoting for extended humanitarian pauses. israel's attacks haven't stopped the usb does, does it is not realistic to expect israel to stop its will on gossip,

hospitals unprotected under international humanitarian law. but in israel's military operation, very targets design was military incursion into on chief a hospital in guys, a city is totally unacceptable. hospitals are not bottom grounds. weird, extremely worried for the safety of stuff and patients. the protecting them is by the amount of hundreds of patients aligning the hospitals, car doors of thousands, may palestinians of sheltering within the hour shift compound. they have nowhere else to go. as israel forming continues relentlessly across the street. car legs for inside story. the, well,

let's discuss all of this further with our panel of guess. and also we have eric foss, the c o, the norwegian aide committee, a humanitarian organization, working with health related projects in them, at least he's worked as a search in, in gaza since 1994, including during several, was in new york. a call you mohammed is special adviser on the right to health that human rights watch and in london, we have told us but minus director of the international state crime initiative at queen mary university of london. thank you all for joining us here. on inside story, since the bombardment of gauze has started, it seems that health facilities, hospitals, ambulances have been in the following line. and since the ground defensive started, it seems to targets, hoping the hospitals and goals at the city with the al she for hospital target number one, eric, you know this hospital so well, you're sitting in the past, you've been on the bottom. bob mentioned god. so this one you're watching from afar . how's it made you feel watching the pictures you're saying?

oh, i think this is kind of a lot of the it's, it's a huge impact on the, on the civilian. so sorry to golf. so since this is a, she probably is the main hospital that's really where they can go when they has serious illness and have up to see, you know, is that the infrastructure is breaking down as the hosp to have been targeted. the benefits with the several rockets, good days proceeding there right there. and now they are. and i actually got the message just now from the, from the hospital saying that the state of soldiers moving about inside the hospital. they have more than 650 patients and the there are still bothering about the situation for these patients. okay, thomas,

you are international legal x. but on this panel tell us hospitals all protected places on the international law. but what are the exemptions to that? so hospitals are particularly protected, the elder and slash the low, and the exception will be and the way they can lose about protection if there are facts on the ground which, which indicates that they're being used to put the, the uh army, the, the opposing army in danger, and so the, we don't have those facts, we haven't seen any of those facts yet and that's something that will come out of when we looked at accountability. but even so, even if they knew they're protected spaces, we don't the general principles often plastic or monetary and law of caution. that's about warning people and evacuating if possible, which is not possible in this situation because we have a hospital in a war zone. the principles of proportionality and military necessity,

and it's hard to see how we can match those 2 up in this situation. what possible military necessity would require this kind of attack. and so it, it seems on the face of it to be just not proportional the way that civilians that they come into the line of fire. a more than that, we have not just the obligation not to attract medical facilities is rather the occupying power has the responsibility to keep these hospitals open to keep them supplied and keep them going. and when we think about the kind of uh, the proportion obviously um the protective stages. we don't think about just the hospital today and tomorrow we have to think about its supply lines. and it's a bill of things to operate in a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks from now. and that's something that has to be taken into account before the pack. a k on this hospital is not just a hospital, its the biggest health complex it, it, it spreads over several city blocks,

but also it became a place of refuge for so many who had to leave the homes, were looking for a place of safety. i'm told at one point else you've had 45000 people living in it . yeah, absolutely. uh, a number of internally displaced people camping out in hospitals because they believed that these hospitals have the kinds of protections under the international humanitarian and all that other guess have to them. and those protections can really literally be moved under a very specific circumstances and human rights watch. we contest any other claims made by these a defense forces based on the information that we have available that these hospital and these disabilities are being used for mother t purposes. i think it's important to note as well, but the task is vile. has only mentioned about. ready fine hospitals,

which they allege are being used by from us and they, austin, g, 6 hospitals and gaza associate for being the largest. and as of november 10th, the world health organization has noticed that 18 out of the $56.00 hospitals are that's more than half of the hospitals. and 46 out of 72 primary care clinics. we're forced to shut down because of that page from the task, or they're not going to just interview as a we, they find a civil outstanding questions about the alleged evidence being presented by either of us fall off. can the evidence be verified? does the evidence presented taskbar, just define the tax on the entire health care system. and if these attacks are really about from us, why has the world health organization also report. ready tax on health care and the west, by the way from us has no control. and this is why we believe the tax on hospitals and healthcare should be investigated as more kinds. i'd like to come back to the

obligations that as well as making a little later in the program and to that raid that took place inside the hospital . but thomas, 1st that this wasn't the 1st time the hospital came under attack, there was a cold roy of ambulances that would have to going to leave the hospital to go to take very ill patients. the agent that was struck on november, the 3rd and the hospital ran out of fuel, which meant that all sorts of equipment, including the incubators for the babies. and everyone has seen those really distressing pictures of those babies wrapped in blankets. from a legal point of view, what those 2 things war crimes. so yeah it's, it's the same thing. an attack on a medical facility includes stuffing that supplies, getting to that medical facility, so that would include the stopping of electricity, oxygen supplies, things like that. and any attack on a, i'm billings is or accommodated around billings is, is,

is included in what the protections provide for protections of the civilian objects . and the law is very clear on this a very strong on this. there's no kind of, there's lots of things contested in international humanitarian law. but this is not one of them that the attack on these kinds of facilities, including the be stopping of supplies, create and conditions in which people become endangered inside. or even just making a doctor's work difficult are ex, here war crimes. eric, the right of course took place and these right, let's reset. it was a precise and tom cuz he the operation against a mouse in a specified area of she for hospital initially 6 times on the 100. come on those now they be making allegations about c for hospital since 2014 at least. you with that in chief, a hospital in 2014. just be absolutely clear to us. have you ever seen any how much fighters in el cheapo hospital have you seen any come on centers and your time in

the hospital? these claims being repeated the 1st time during the war, 20082009. and again in 2014 to i have been in this hospital during these morse, i also have been there once or twice a year, every year. so for the last 2 years, and i have to move freely about. and of course, we're going to be heard this other day since we were, we took them very serious that because it is something more crime to, to mix military stuff with the hospital. so therefore, we made the own investigations be off the record of you stuck in, you are not thomas people. re read. as i said, i have my colleagues, we have been able to move freely about the whole school. they've never seen any sign um, but the, the p both,

i wonder if it is right is really the differing between civilian stuff. me the 3rd because seems how mazda is responsible for the whole civil society. of course there are how mos, the people that are responsible for health care. i'm the meanest jo. hello some this type of stuff but they are not the girl is a good target. some of the come up because they did us come us military stuff. so therefore, to use the word hamas all the time. it's important to distinguish between military activities the maintaining the sicilian society. but they have never seen any sign of a military activity or, and they come on central. i would also like to commend that when they hit the day

before they uh, they actually enter the hospital. they target the, the oxygen uh called some type, the plant which actually we have helped building. and we have built the oaks and the systems and all the hospitals and also training the stuff to maintain these. these are not military objects, but they're extremely important enough because apart from the power they are important for the integrators. 3rd important for old, critically new patients. so by the, by removing this personality, they have the 2 are it to the situation for all patients in the hospital, particularly all those know injured in the, in the activities. when they launch the raid, they put out of statements quite a long statement. the end of it says, we call on all have mass terrace present in the hospital to surrender. that would know how much of a fight is they arrested and non surrendered. and then shortly off to the minute

treat spokesman of the israeli army, appear at the hospital. and he took people on what he said was a one take tool. so it wasn't added to the tool, although they did delete the video and then re post it with it slightly changed a few hours later. let's just listen to one of the things that the military spokesman left on the colonel jonathan con rick is said doing that was that the one take tool and these weapons have absolutely no business being inside the hospital. the only reason they're here is because come us put them here because they use this place like many other hospitals and ambulances, insensitive facilities inside the guy that fits folder release administrative purposes. so there's something called ruffles here. even the munition k on you have, i'm sure, seen all of that video. does it convince you, i think,

even if this will actually is trial has not demonstrated that the ensuing hospital attacks were proportion. and i think proportionality isn't the important components of the international humanitarians or framework that should be brought into this conversation. or warning policies must take constant care to many miles home to civilians and attacks and hospitals being used to collect what is referred to as asked alter the enemy austell. i don't know for if these attacks are indiscriminate or disproportionate as of the use of explosive weapons, densely populated areas heights in this industry, the tax, the tax in which the anticipated loss of civilian life and property excessive compared to the menissi gains by this proportion. and so these attack spiking style have in our view being excess of industry. ready ocean and they are magnified

with respect to the hospitals since even the strength of an attack. oh mine is that damage can have massive life with implications for patients and the caregivers. we have seen, for instance, in the normal explain since they use a gunman standing on top of a hospitals shooting estimate. let's see that government can then on the international the attack shot. but you cannot bomb the antonio hospital complex. even the united states government does not support the tax from the on hospitals. and so the question of proportionality cooking for one, i should not be left off with this conversation. earlier in the week, the is really military also showed a video of the run tc children's hospital. again showing some weapons that were found that thomas, what do you make of eric's point? these could just be a god force of the left,

a few weapons the and the last time i went to jerusalem, i think it was during co read. i have to have a go because of a test. and i have to go through god to get into a clinic in israel. so is it really any different this? yeah, i mean, i think, i think it's right that we have to consider for, for so that was in the sense if we find weapons inside the hospital, but in the case perhaps the there are, there's some blurring of the lines between military and civilian objectives on the pop part of from us, if we accept 5, we can say that perhaps a war crime has been committed in that place, but doesn't give you car belongs to committed war crimes. as a response to that, that's not how the law works beforehand. busy the principal never goes away, and so you have to have facts on the ground. let's show that it was military necessity to attract some of these. it's relations and to attack a hospital you would have to have, you would have to have a refusal facts on the ground showing

a mass of military presents inside in order to justify it at all. so the idea that there might be crime nor crime happening on one side is in no way or a dream lice, to commit disproportionate attack on the civilian objective like this on the other side. and that seems to be the argument that's being made, but that doesn't. that's not how international humanitarian law works. you don't, you don't justify one crime with another crime. you, you, you must prosecute and hold accountability for both of eric. if we compare what israel has now said, it's found a new, i'm sure i've seen that video. it doesn't seem to be the same thing as they were talking about before the right. they've been talking about this massive come on and control center, a network of tunnels, access from the tunnels to the woods of the hospital. let me just play you a little bit of what another of the military spokesman. i wrote down your

a gallery said on the 1st day of the ground rule about what was underneath. i'll ship the kite as the red buildings as i mentioned, a building the commodities using meaning. he does his command and control in different departments of the hospital like the ram getting room and others. he uses these places you know that to do co bonded control for their activities, launching rockets, etc, etc. well eric key named if you listen to all of that press comments or different parts of the building that will be used for different things. that is no, well, they've been able to prove visit. no, of course not that it's uh, i would say it would be impossible. uh, unless this is something that has to be uninstalled, the law space be i've been there in these buildings on the scene and the signing of

this. they also claim that the department is parked on should be some kind of and trans. yeah. and actually they have to search through the department destroying it as i go to information for my colleagues, state of sabotage smells. well that involves the maturing equipment to which again, the smoke military. uh no. is it a military importance? they have also, before they enter the hospital, there was snipers shooting at the hospital. the enduring and in fact, killing at least one of the nurses in the hospital there. but when they entered there was no guns fight. according to my colleagues, the so that no, no gunshot being fired inside the hospital, that means that there was no pipe thing. there wasn't randal armed soldiers inside the hospital when the, the idea of entered. so it's very difficult to,

to understand how they can maintain these claims to the i'm not just claims, of course, by israel, that claims by the united states as well. said it had its own independent intelligence of what was going on. and we heard that from president by when he gave that news conference in san francisco. but i think that was another thing that he said in that news conference in san francisco that was was listening to cas lee. he talked about what these riley miller treated doing right now. they're also bringing in incubators for bringing in other other means to help the people in the hospital . and they've given the doctors and i'm told the doctors and nurses and personal opportunities to get out of harm's way. so this is a different story and i believe it was the current current before an indiscriminate k on that, that, that, that, those last words, this is

a different story than i believe was occurring before in discriminant, foaming indiscriminate. bullying is how jo button describes that is not a war crime that's certainly on the face of the mind amongst a little time. again, based on the kinds of evidence today to gather. i think it's also important to point out the bind earlier comments about these 80 minutes you providing hospitals that incubate this is a little disingenuous. it's like dropping out someone's hot and then giving them a band, a aid to come up to me. and so i think this must also be called the, the policy of the united states government as well as other the leaders who uh, um, contributions to the minutes the assistance of the on sales to, to israel. but this last statement i think is absolutely important to note, given that the us and saw have for your patients on attacking hospitals in the way

in which israel is kind of, if i can hospitals even on that basis. and i think it's important that the, the us and all the global honors call out is vital for the way. and we're just engaging in minutes the attacks on hospitals across guys as well as the waste thing . i think it's also important to recognize some of the streets around the world unfolding. and are we focusing very much i'll see for the types of hospitals. but human rights watch has previously found that these videos part of these are committing crimes against humanity all past days. and persecution, and so the ongoing attacks on hospitals must be understood in this one of the cycle context and the concept for these kinds of tasks from the ongoing times it'll posit and crimes against humanity. and persecution collectors punishment that kind of gasoline in palestine. thomas, um, we don't have much time, but very quickly. is there any prospect, do you think of international law catching up with all of this? yes, the international criminal court site and investigation. are you hopeful that this

will go somewhere us i'm not hopeful the international criminal law or it's not the law itself is going to be able to do anything that quickly enough. and i think we do need to think of this wider context. we're starting to see starting to be clear now that we're looking at a wider context of attacks on civilians attacks on civilian objectives. and i think we need to still start thinking about and we just start talking about the, the stages of genocide. what are the stages of genocide is systematic weakening, which is withdrawal of health care in discriminative attacks on civilians. and i think about maybe if, if, if a court was to take a case to the international court of justice on the tracy basis, not a criminal court. but again, we could get an order from the i, c, j to israel, to stop and the fist. what they're doing while we have further investigation. but otherwise inflectional criminal law is

a slow acting process and it's not going to help things on the ground. now what we need now is we need civil society to put pressures on their own governments with demonstrations. and we need states to stars that treating a israel as model of standing member of the international community. we need to look at bts and other non bottom. ready is resistance around the world in order to put pressure on the state of israel stuff. what us doing? well, thank you very much. eric conceptual, i guess eric foss a, came ahmed and thomas look minus if you tuned in late you can watch the whole program again on our website at any time. go to out, is there a dot com you'll come at and so pap, suggestions for future topics to be discussed here. a gratefully received on facebook at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story on x, or is it still as i still call it twitter? it's at a inside story for me, james space and the team, even though house stay safe. i'll see you soon. bye bye for now the

of the situation and got a new expert analysis. this is not the convention of war between the 2 armies institute through states. this is a significant, more ease, really only does not purposely so to kill children. unfortunately, children can be the casualties of the wall, the test. in real time, we only taking them to call of the test. this government is mostly to solve the war. as you said, to do that, there wouldn't be no peace without justice for fast and stay with us for the latest development on our on counting the costs, the un warren's the warranty, done. so it gets set back development in palestinian territories by more than a decade. while israel central banks as a complex major shocked with economy, plus how the wars deepening lebanon's,

economic prices. counting the costs on al jazeera, according to the un since the conflict broke out into down in april. more than 700000 people have fled the country. most of them have fled to chatter egypt, but now some are arriving here in libya. some people bring his food and more sap, but it's not enough for all the children. if the fighting continues in neighbouring through that many fear that could possibly be an influx of refugees and possibly fighters crossing into libya, you image the yours is libya is not a safe place for refugees and asylum seekers. and that they try to give assistance to those who are the most vulnerable, but for the women and children here, that's just not enough. or israel is still refusing to allow the international journals into jobs to cover the carnage. they're all that they can report on 1st hand is the is really saw palestinian reporters risking everything to get the story

you 15 members killed in and ask for sharing company one that we don't cover the news we covered the way the news is the listening post the, [000:00:00;00] the hello online site. this is a news on life from coming up in the next 60 minutes. the, the direct have gone says i'll see for hospital tells alger 0, some new bones on the patients and intensive k have now died as well.