[000:00:00;00] the, let's take a look at some other world news in the ukrainian military. it says it's conducted a series of successful operations on the east and back of the denique for a river. and the cas on region. the army says it's a cute, a strong attack position, and as it's counter offensive against russia's military continues. but mcbride has moved from the capital cave, a more reports of fighting, continuing, and possibly intensify on the left or east bank of the, the pro river, a way of ukrainian force. they do seem to have a stablished over the past few weeks, a breach had adult possibly advancing further. the russians have missing just a couple of days ago for the 1st time that the ukrainians have effectively established the presence on what is technically the side of the river. but russian

military bloggers are claiming that further attempts it advances by the gradients. they say have been repelled, everybody's to be seen how significant this is, whether this is a further cancer offensive attempt by the ukrainians and questions remain about whether they can get on the due dates across the didn't the pro river to support this. but the advantage of this part of the front line is that it is far less well defended by the russians than other parts of the front line. for example, around is that for ratio, where defense is off for the past, where the main come through offensive by the gradients has been taking place, but has been running into a very severe difficulties, a foot more immediately. it does seem as though the premiums are trying to push back russian forces and the rush or not hillary, from the didn't the pro river because they continue to show the city of have a song which was liberated a year ago. but he's continuing to come on the russian shelling with the latest reports saying that's

a number of bull civilians have been killed and injured in the has own region run mcbride, i'll just say era keith setting goals supreme court has belonged to jail deposition data from running for president, original quote had previously allowed us mon sancho to be on the bowers in february . sun causes jails on charges, a corrupted young people. this policy has appealed the supreme court decision, but supports us via has reinstatement. may not come in time for the election. the wild flies of in and out of control across brazil's tropical wetlands that have been more than $3000.00 blazes in the 1st half of this month. or is it brazil's pods and all region rich and dotted. biodiversity is suffering from an intense heat wave. file 5 is involuntary as a trying to help rescue injured animals. and that's it from the elizabeth toronto for this position, but to stay with us and use continues hit on al jazeera, off to upfront. thank you very much for watching

the work that out of their existence. it's load ship as a principal presenter and as a correspondence with any breaking the story we want to hear from those people who with normally know that that voice is heard on the international news channels. one moment i'll be very proud all was when we covered the, the fullness quake of 2015 at the terrible match, all the facts. and the story that needed to be told from the hall of the affected area to be then to tell the people story was very important at the time. socially, october 7th attacks. israel's leaders having both the historical persecution of the jewish people to justify israel's ongoing siege of god. it is rarely prime minister benjamin netanyahu called from us as a massacre pope, the worst active anti semitic violence since the holocaust. and said that just as the world united to defeat the nazis,

it must also stand united behind israel to the need for mass. but as that told him, guys, it continues to rise in some experts wonderful potential genocide. critics have started questioning this spring or jewish history of anti semitism being webinar as someone from the jewish community claim. that discussion is coming up and upfront the giving us to discuss this is amanda barto and is really american professor of holocaust and genocide. studies at brown university, stephanie fox, executive director of jewish voice for peace and hallmark, but the political analyst and commentator and former deputy director of the american institute. thank you all so much for joining me. and i'm going to start with you of following masses. attack of both is rarely and western officials have repeatedly invoked israel's right to defend itself. us president biden's anti semitism envoy deborah lips that went further saying, quote,

no one has the right to tell it is real how to defend itself. but israel's responsive head, devastating humanitarian consequences. states have the right to defend themselves within the limits of international law, but they also have to consider proportionality. where is the line between israel's right to the bins and the total that it's taking on the palestinian people. mark, i'll take it a step back and say, even before we get to the question of proportionality is to remember that israel as an occupying force and gaza, gaza has been placed under seats by israel for more than 17 years in which life and gaza as miserable people, there was no economy just because half the population is unemployed. and most of the water that isn't gaza is drinkable, and they don't have the right to have an airport or a seaport or trade with the outside world. that is the reality for garza and successive is really military operations and gaza have killed literally thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of children. more than 300 children in 2008,

9 more than 550 children in 2014. and so when we asked the question of the right of self defense, the most obvious question that's come up is do palestinians have the right to self defense and as an occupied people who are living under a brutal military occupation, there is no question that they do but obviously nobody thinks that how masses attack, which included tremendous harm to is really civilians that anybody could consider that to be an act of self defense. similarly, let me ask the question about that because there are people, particularly is, is really advocates who would say fine, the westbank is occupied, but israel moved all the troops. the settlers left in 2006. this is from us as issue if there's, if there's violence in dallas, if there's a problem and guys, it's not israel's occupation, it's, it's on that's what you say is look and being an occupation of a place does not just mean taking settlers out because israel is literally in control of everything that goes in and out of the gaza strip because they're not allowed to function or have access to the outside world without as really

permission. nothing goes into a garza without israel's permission, and nothing leaves garza without israel's permission. and again, there's, you know, if, if it's, if you're talking about israel controlling its own border or egypt controlling its own border, that's one thing. but when you say gaza is not allowed to have an airport. and god does not have to have a seaport that the last time a humanitarian ship tried to come into gaza to deliver some aid is really soldiers board of that ship and killed 9 people on board, including an american citizen. you can pretend that because it is a free place that is up for the people who live in a terminus future because it is under occupation. and that's the reason why the when and many other human rights organizations also considered garza to continue to be under is really occupational. just let me, let me bring you in here. many have pointed out that october 7th was the most lethal attack on jewish people since the holocaust one, which is the writer, adam she has put it triggered the role as part of use. psyche,

the fear of annihilation. can you help us understand the psychological impact of the masses attack us. listen, every single one of the 1200 is rarely is murdered by him. us that over $200.00 kidnapped are precious and secret, you know, on a human level. and as a jew with loved ones directly harmed, i of course, understand the desire to feel like the clock has to stop, to feel engulfed with the pain and horror of what are obvious atrocities and more crimes. but i think that when you speak about that sort of sense of triggering a core and sort of primal, jewish fear of annihilation. but that's not a new dynamic for us to be talking about in the context of the israeli government or it's suppression of policy. indians, right, we have to understand the ways in which the, the is really government from its outset has been set on abusing the history of jewish suffering and using it to justify more and more oppression and dispossession

of palestinians. and we've been taught as jews, the palestinians are somehow the rightful inheritors of the blame for genocidal european christian anti semitism in the holocaust while never deemed worthy of their own. and that the basic fundamental longing palestinians have for freedom in their own homes for survival in their own indigenous lands is falsely represented, is rooted in hatred for jews. instead of love for family love for community love for the lands which they belong, you know. and so i think that in this moment we see and twining in the intertwining of jewish tama and palestinian trauma, that we have to start understanding both the way that that history has been twins and intertwined. the way it's been pitted against each other and our responsibility to look at both the notes and european responsibility for the

holocaust at once on there. you are an expert on genocide and you have talked about your concerns or a regarding the response of his riley leadership to october 7th. you said that they're showing, quote, genocidal intent which can easily tip into genocidal action. you pointed to the fact that on october 28th, a prime minister, netanyahu said, quote, you must remember what i'm gonna like did to you. this of course, is a reference to a tar a passage where after surprise attack died, commands the jewish people to kill every man, woman and infant. that's a story where failing to eradicate the enemy nearly leads to a jewish genocide. that is to say the least provocative rhetoric. what do you make of it? what concerns you about it? um, let me, let me start just by saying the, the from us with uh on october 7th was a true parenthesis tag that could easily be defined as

a crime against humanity and as it will cry. and the question you asked earlier about self defense? i think every state has a right and often to, to the, for self defense. so the question is obviously the framing of it. there's so much to but um, so there is actually an issue of a major attack in which over $900.00 civilians were killed as well as $300.00 soldiers often and atrocious way. so that is one part of the that we have to keep in mind. and the sense of insecurity, but it's, it's as instilled in the entire community and israel and the rhetoric that has come from as training political leaders. you've, you've mentioned that to the, out the many others as well as some military leaders have echoes of genocide. it's, it's, it's actually sounds like an intent to carry out genocide. now the question is

whether the actually doing it, and i mean we can go into greater detail my, my sense is that there is huge disproportionality between the ministry goes to the intro was to achieve, which is to destroy at least administrative for structural from us. and the number of civility is that it's a skills including it seems thousands of children, so on the far larger scale than ever before. so this indication of what kinds there's indication of prize. it goes to mann and see whether there is a 10 genocide. i think we have not reached of point, but one thing has to be pointed out of israel has forcibly evacuated about a 1000000 percent in citizen from the northern causes trip to the south. think of the street it's claims to do that. to protect them from minute to action,

but the result is that you have no shoot congestion of people without the appropriate infrastructure. it just is winter assessing in the vast can be seen as ethnic cleansing, which often in the past in several cases, roughly cleansing, because actually led to genocide. so this is what we have to watch out for and one against. and that's what i've been trying to do for me is to do anything for many of us that the human is ation of the language and the actions. and the idea of i nearly $5000.00 palestinians children have been murdered in a month. many more hundreds, maybe thousands tops stuck under the rubble of dying slowly while those who are dropping the bombs are talking about how these are human animals that use. like i've talked about triggering a chord, jewish understanding of what is,

what is the purpose of deeply dehumanizing language. and so many of us in the jewish community who i take the exact opposite left hand from histories of oppression, are pouring into the movement, demanding of ceasefire, demanding an end to the root causes of all of this violence. because we feel absolutely compelled to say, you know, never again is right now since october 7. israel said we're trying to get rid of from us fully with an internal government document uncovered by hebrew outlet shows that as early as october, 13th to these really governor was already considering expelling guides as population into design. i desert saying that doing so would yield quote, long term strategic outcomes for israel. one is really think tank said that probably on october 7th, there was quote, a unique and rare opportunity to evacuate the entire gaza strip of what the past 6 weeks tell us about is there is extra motivation to look. there is no question that the fantasy is really politicians mines is to drive all

palestinians out because they always looked at the gaza as a problem that they don't know how to deal with. and if they sustain the current level of destruction and damage, but it's taking place full over the gaza strip to the point where it can literally no longer sustain life. you may end up in a situation in which to literally save the lives of people who are currently in gaza that you end up forcing them to basically leave in order to set up a quote unquote temporary living situation elsewhere. and then prevent them from returning. stephanie, you talked about context before getting it some of the root causes that got us to october 7th that created these conditions. uh, other people have done that and they haven't gotten a great response. i mean, these really government was furious after you and a secretary general antonio gutierrez said that uh the tax buy from us did not happen in a vacuum. the palestinian people had been subjected to 56 years of suffocating our occupation with some is really officials actually accusing contender as of defending him ass active is expressing solidarity palestinians have similarly been

accused of defending her mazda despite the fact that only a small minority of actually, voice support for the group and many, including your group, had been accused of having a pro, her mouth sent him it for asking to consider again the system of violence to by your words that let us to october 7th. what's happening here? how are these messages somehow being conflicted with support for from us? you know, it's critical that we understand that for palestinians, october 6th, october 5th, october 4th. and every day for the last 75 years have been a day of great emergency and violence. but in the time, even just in this past year, between january 1st and october 7th, israel had till $250.00 pounds spinning ends, including nearly 50 children programs, were so frequent in the west banks that we as an organization, we're having a hard time responding quickly enough, because really military, it bombed. do you need a refugee camp? like we, you know,

i've done this work for 15 years and i have never in my life been in a state of such a emergency over the past year of just constant horrifying violence by these really stayed by these really military by settlers working, locked in lock step with those forces to attack or press and violently harm and kill palestinians. and so he so readjusted to suggest that the mere mention of those causes in the mere attempt to uh, end violence is in fact somehow um, anti semitic. or somehow disregarding of our deep care for jewish less on their israel's un and baset are glad in dine, has a purely worn a yellow star of david like those that use the force to wear during the holocaust. he's one into meeting that the un security council, but many say that comparing modern, the israel with the plight of using nazi germany is actually a false analogy. how do you make sense of those kind of competing narratives?

well, you know, shortly before the from us it's a, uh, there was a program and the program was, it was in the, in the present in town and it was found. and it's more or less was according to how you define a program that is that there is a month that a tax and minority population in, in a, in a certain territory. and this is what happened in the late 19th century and early 20th century, to jewish communities in ukraine and russia. and then when the mouse that's happened, then much of these really media cool about the pogo. and that was meant really to revoke those memories and to say, well, you see now we are experiencing what we have always experienced. it's, as i submit it gets an answer. they submit the content of and there's nothing you can do. it goes other services and, but to fight it the you can't talk with as i see much. now of course,

it was not the problem because the problem is an attack on the minority. and in this case, the, the whole point of son is that hope points of creating a jewess stays with in response to part of them. so the jews with have as out as, as autism, towards a jewish majority, states where the army would be jewish. the police would be judged, the government would be jewish, and therefore they would not be any problems. so quoting the, the, the attack of her mouth, which was an atrocious terrorist attack, a problem is basically flipping things around. it's like calling 911 and paul group . it was a terrorist attack, not a pop up. the same thing happens with genocide. i mean, i've heard people claiming that the, the amount us of talked with a genocide and now many people matching in many cities think that is the genocide and gossip of being jealous sides of statements showing intent. and when you define genocide, you have to show 10 intense to destroy a group,

a search. so intense is actually being shown through these statements, whether that is actually happening on the ground. that is whether there is intentional targeting of civilian population rather than indiscriminate bombing. the brings about the killing of large numbers of people, of civilians, of in a sense of it is that it has to be the basis. i'm not sure that is the case. as i said, i think clearly the war crimes happening potentially crimes against humanity, whether it rises to the definition of genocide. i'm not sure, but i don't think and says it's math is a great deal, alma look at least me agree that the intent has been expressed. now let's look at the actions and what they actually show. you have a situation in which i'm international about our reports, saying that entire families are being wiped out. entire bloodlines, multiple generation of the same family have been obliterated off the face of the earth. and when you look at the history of how many children are killed in

different complex, you look at what happened to new crane. about 5, just under 500 children were killed and you were pregnant the entire 1st year of rushes warning frame. and what everybody acknowledges, included war crimes and massive indiscriminate bombing of, of ukrainian areas. and we looked at what's happening and gaza. a 136 children are being killed every single day. you are looking at a ratio of more than a $100.00 to $1.00 compared to almost any conflict that has happened in recent memory. those numbers are absolutely horrifying. and the extent to which half the housing units and all of gaza have been either completely destroyed or damaged. you are looking at a scale of destruction that if it has not stopped what will make gaza unfit for human living. so the question for me is whether you called us a genocide or not will depend on whether you stop it or in time or not. however, it is absolutely genocidal violence that is currently taking place. that if it's

allowed to continue, you are going to completely destroy house names, ability to live and gossip. stephanie, anti semitic attacks have risen in recent years and since october 7th, we've seen a number of disturbing assaults on jewish people. there was a stabbing of a jewish woman in, in leon, there was a dag, as done mob storming in airport in search of jews at the same time, many have characterized cause for a cease fire as anti semitic, and have accused jewish organizations like the g p jewish boys for peace of being anti semitic in recent years, organizations around the world have adopted the i h. r. a definition of the international holocaust remembrance alliances definition of a anti semitism which deems speech against the state of israel as anti semitic. a holocaust scholar amos goldberg, cause the h r, a definition catastrophic and says that the is really right,

has used it to completely change the this course i'm gonna get your take on this also on this. what does that mean? which? well, it's how we have this truly orwellian world in which a march has happened this week. but supposing to be up against anti semitism, but it's actually a pro war valley that is headlined by the one of the most powerful anti semites in the us. pastor john hagi who had said that god brought hitler to punish choosing to drive them into israel and has been working for decades to bring about what he hopes will be a world ending apocalyptic religious war in the land. you know, it's how we have marjorie taylor green of jewish space. laser fame of all things. i'm starting the ball rolling on what would become the shameful censure of our only palestinian american member of congress proceeded to leave for fighting for the lives and rights of palestinians. and israelis in equal measure, you know, so we have organizations like the anti defamation league, shutting down anti apartheid student organizing in the name of jewels. safety is

insane. you know, we see them actually collecting their understood as somehow to be the data collectors about anti semitism in the world. but using that h or a definition and using their own slander and stuff. initially they actually are collecting the, the incidence of the largest jewish protest in decades that are here fighting for a cease fire for peace there, there. documenting those as incidents of anti semitism. so we have this upside down funhouse mirror situation of intentional confusion about what anti semitism really is. and that is incredibly dangerous in a moment. when white nationalism and, and anti semitic ideologies are, are driving violence against jews. and again, smartphones and people of color. it's essential that we'd be clear on what happens semitism is and on what it's not. i'm not our movements are fighting for a future of

a freedom and safety for all people who don't so much. only want to jump in. let me, i'm gonna give you a chance to jump in and we'll just like to piggyback on one thing that's the it was saying that i think is really, really telling whenever israel's thoughts committing more crimes, there is also a rise and that they submit a tax and it is baffling that leading organizations rather than distance themselves from these war crimes. in 5th, these war crimes are speaking in the name of the jewish people. that is just lunacy . it tells you that they are less interested in combining at this time. it doesn't, and they are more interested in running interference for promoting is really policy at this time. it doesn't is a very serious otherwise a problem in this country. and to play with it. these silly political games and to water down to that charge. by playing it at people who are trying to defend human rights and stand up to our crimes, i think is, is incredibly dangerous. oh man, you know, to, is really, professes the most go good whom you mentioned. and i don't confess, you know. and then myself joining them actually responded to the ira.

the technician that has been used by the, is there any government creating a separate the technician that you're the jerusalem declaration on, on, on the 7th, isn't that removes those sections to try to say that any criticism of the state of israel is that they submitted. but the solution is being successful in being adopted by many governments, including quite a number of european governments. and it is a, with an ice ation. 5 is ready government of anti semitism in order to defend itself from any criticism of its own policies. do you know i'm a story and so what i find most ironic about it is that the state of israel was created as a response to, as i said, most of it was supposed to be the same thing would choose would be protected from other services. i mean, as i submitted a tax, andrews would,

would no longer have any rationale to them. and the result right now is that just as israel right now is the most dangerous place for choosing the well. it's also the, the, the main cause, know for and to submit the contents. nobody should condone those that they submit a good tax. but i think as a law was saying where the state behaves in a particular way. and in the class itself to be the state of the jews, then this has a particular effect on jewish communities around the world. you could say that was most true because right now, as i said, that as a around the world is the conduct of the state of israel itself. stephanie, we seem jewish organization at the forefront of the ceasefire. move in, are we seeing a growing diversity of opinion within the jewish community when it comes to israel? i mean, absolutely the the, you know, protest movement that over the last month speaks for itself. we have thousands and thousands of jews of all ages. certainly young people of course,

but of all ages pouring into the streets where, you know, the movement for palestinian rights and freedom of jews have always been a part of where and also we've always been a part of so many movements for, for justice and freedom and we bring all of that history with us into this moment in which it feels like everything we've learned. everything we've fought for all of our lives must be brought to bear to end these as stark atrocities that we're seeing. all right, that's all we have time for. i want to thank you all for joining me. oh man, stephanie alma, thank you so much for joining me. it's great. having a conversation with you everybody that is our show upfront. we'll be back the as the situation in gaza escalates. we bring you expertise and analysis what the

world is allowing these really wanting to do not only have the 2 children, but now they're going to kill the patients in the hospital. all the people that suffer from children. so now you cannot people are starving. the whole system is collapsing. we thought was broken up that stay with us for the latest developments on tuesday, and i thought provoking on sundays. but the patient doesn't have time to wait for the extremely unfortunately, there are no quick wins and events or research hard hitting interviews. do you feel like america is less than the days of these days, or is it just a different full? i think the demography of the process facing realities do you see that the fraction is already starting the g 7 in the us on one side, china and the brakes on the other? i think there is

a huge piece of that to happen via the stores on tools to how does era the stream is back and you can be part of it. join me out of these forces in the rest of the team, free firsthand look beyond the headlines and have a say on how your stories told for new voices and unique perspective. the stream on all just the or the is really bombardment, discuss a continues at least 26 people are killed in an as try con, con eunice the the hello, i'm elizabeth ron. and this is alice,

as you are live from doha. also coming up the, the director of gauze is all ship a hospital tells allergies 0 some newborn babies. and all the patients and