of the, with the game and going so raging and drawing all the attention. the full civil displacement of palestinians in the occupied westbank escalates. settlers retain late, burned down all of drives or attack palestinians in the west bank. so these are the 10 to blind. i will, they help out using intimidation and once we are resting choose population protected by no one. do you want to fight westbank the other from the palestinian experience as israel sense office from baldwin says guys that military and political support from the us remains sense funds could this will lead to why the regional instability? what role does washington play? this is in science story. the

hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a, that in just weeks, israel is killed or maimed. tens of thousands of palestinians including children. vast areas of guys have been destroyed, leaving hundreds of thousands homeless, forced to move the u. n. worlds of starvation, patients including infants have died in hospitals, are attacked by israel, left without pallet and vital medicine. despite widespread international condemnation, israel's relentless campaign goes on back by its allies, the u. s. the u. k. and the european union. so could the atrocities and violence unleashed by, as well as ministry on gaza, lead to a why the regional instability. what does the by then boost ration where they think will be asking all guess this and more questions in just a few moments. but 1st,

this report, by out just serious catalogue has already on day after day. israel's attacks keep coming. classrooms like this one in northern garza turned into a virtual graveyards nearby at the body of refugee camp. word test and destruction of the with facing problems pulling out both survivors and the data working without hands because there's no equipment the gaza strip may be small font, the political manifestations of its bombardment threatened to destabilize the entire region. there is already division among some leaders in the middle east and from jordan to 11 on. protesters have rallied supporting palestine shared the palestinian authority and its current form cannot get control of gaza, not after we fought and did all this to give it to them. then on this,

i remembered as its main financial backer, the united states, as perhaps the one ally benjamin netanyahu would listen to. but with more bombings, accusations of us complicity. our growing cause for israel to stop or pauses attacks have largely been too faint for to haul amazed by the president bite and i called on you with all your official and human qualities to stop this humanitarian catastrophe. this genocide against the innocent people, history will not observe any one of these crimes. some analysts argue israel's most far right government. the date is actively trying to destabilize the regions to move. they say to impulse israel's dominance and the chaos of war. more than 70 percent of gauze population of about 2300000 people have been

displaced to sort of the war. and so far, not much has been said about what will happen to gaza. and it's people, once israel ends, it strikes katia lopez, leon for insights. the last spring in august. now we have in london, daniel lee, the president of the us middle east project and a former advisor in the office of former israeli prime minister, who would bach in the tucker city of on tale nicholas, no, director of the bi route exchange foundation. and also in london, h a have a senior associate fellow at the royal united services institute for defense and security studies in london. and the non resident scholar at the carnegie endowment for international peace in washington warm welcome to old. if i could start with daniel. so daniel, where do you read is re the policy when it comes to the question of widening the conflict, drawing in more pallas like the u. s. d,

put into the conflict as well. so i mean, see there's 2 elements to that. first of all, it's clear that the is re government has america wherever it will sit on the question of the military assault on gaza itself to the extent to which may be and i may have been part of that, my unity, we thought there was american action behind the scenes to actually try and get to that see spot. i think just been clarified that that's not the case. america is actively working to prevent a ceasefire. a president biden has gone onto the pages of the washington post to make that clear. now, because we're so i think america is already part of this war. the trickle of humanitarian aid is matched by a lot of weapons going to his route. so america is directly aging the war. there

are suggestions, there might be some involvement specialists on the ground. elapsed roads and being flown, that our american america is, of course, trying to prevent international action. and i think america is trying to back up what looks like very flimsy is radians. how so little those fronts, americans of gold, which is why some suggesting that american leaders themselves may have a cool place to answer in terms of better, justine war crimes. but then there's the 2nd question, which is do we get to a point of direct american military engagement to they grow to regional now seats? and this would be israel has full law premier already, but it could be directly it wrong. america as well, the seats, the america has in the consecration, taken steps to try and facilitate preventive, the terrans present in the region. and it seems that he's running his law,

calibrating that moves, however, are these really side looks at this, and it hasn't made the decision. but it looks at this, and it has america off the coast of lebanon. and it has a rare opportunity for america to be directly involved in a war is something israel has perhaps hoped for in terms of any future clash with, he's blah, it's not complete yet, but that is tempting that ink cartridge model has. and here's the key connection between the 2. the longest things go on the worst they'd be coming, cause we more the population capital into the south. and israel continuing its assault. we time as you, but absolute c 5 things we get was how far does this get dials up? and do we see a regional spread either the premeditated in taishan or one of the policies and of these route apps trying to bring america read by. but just happens, thoughts on that. i think this is why no one should be nonchalant. a cool sort

about what's happening, a garza producer about the prospect of spreading further. i'm going to use that. let me jump in the daniel, you made a guess a key statement that it's tempting who shy, but i should point out the view as you've kindly allow me to refer to as who sham rather than ha. hi leah. so who sham? do you agree with that is the attempt taishan for israel, an interest to try and rule the us in a step further than the us. he's already involved in this is daniel was pointing out. so i think that we have a couple of things here and i brought the agree with what daniel has just said in that i don't think a decision has been taken to actually try to regionalize the conflict from within the as rarely security establishment on the country i think, but that is not something that they would want to do um, but i would also combine that with

a high degree of let us say recklessness in terms of going about things within the actual conflict itself. um that could be very easily leads to regionalization. of the conflict, and that's the problem that i see right there. um that if you don't take seriously, the very easy offer up and to retail, i ization that we'd currently see. then it doesn't take much for the law of unintended unintended consequences to apply in a war. i mean very early on in this conflict, you saw a mis, i'll strike on an egyptian security outpost and sign i that was apparently by mistake. okay. um, but that was very early on. um imagine if you had something like that when it comes to uh, several targets within. uh so the for example, imagine if you see the continued escalation in the west bank uh with the

supporting of, uh, jewish settlers. uh, by the idea of a, with a rising desk told a palestinian civilians in the us bank. you know, what does that go? you know, things getting moved very quickly and tumble and somebody out of control. and then you, by virtue of that you then have a regionalization effect. i don't think this is the intended policy. i do think that there is an incredible reckless the steps involved here, which is why i agree with that new. i think we ought not to be nonchalant about where this can, although i know, unfortunately i see a lot of that nonchalance within d. c. within some parts of london, i have to say that when it comes to london, while the uh, the leadership of our 2 main parties seems united on backing israel to the hilton, this conflict i brought it actually in the picture is much more different when you

look across the policy establishment. all right, let's break down some of the terms we're using here and let me bring in nicholas and ask the question when we talk about the possible regionalization was so finding the show has been discussing the possible further involvement of the us. but does that also by default mean the deeper involvement i'll be wrong? well, i think there's a wide presumption that if the americans become militarily involved in the coming stages, that, that is much more likely to involve the wrong. sure. but i think it's very important to just a if i can challenge something that is, i'm just said, i think we have clear reporting in the public that there are key leaders in the israeli government and establishment that have very much wanted to expand the confrontation and the military front to has butler and daniel, i think was much more of a next one. you know, you sent me off, but nicholas,

let me jump in. you say key lead is we've had indication from key leaders in the government. i take it, you're referring to these really government, not the us government or yeah, the israeli government, they, i mean there's multiple reporting about this over the last few weeks that divide administration and the pentagon have had to really serve, i think, in their strongest fashion yet on this key issue to try to restrain. he is really leaders including the minister of defense, at least as it's probably reported. again, i think daniel is much more of an expert on the internal machinations of his rarely politics than i am. but there it is wide reporting that there are g figures in these really government and the establishment there. and in the military, that i wanted to very much at moments over these last several weeks to escalate and to him. has bella and 11 on far harder than they have and it seems, and i think that distracts with what i've been hearing from american officials,

that id seen that they've been restrained from that the problem. well, there's several problems with that. well beyond the fact that such a escalation would be awful for the people all the people, the region and would indeed likely bring in the us and probably bring in iran. and the reason why the us would be involved is because israel finds itself in a militarily very precarious position, such that it hasn't seen in decades. it actually needs be at the missile technology at the very least, that the us has brought to bear in the region more than 70 ships. i believe 2 aircraft carriers. this is substantial american fire power that actually it's deemed will be necessary in order for israel to fight on these 2 fronts. what i think is extremely concerning the, i guess, and nicholas the question is why in the minds of those is right. the officials said, you'll seeing the indication that they want to widen this and drag in

a full blown war and the knowles, this the means to do it is questionable. what is the appealing thing to them? maybe to daniel's point, usually the about. so you want me to see what, hey, why we've got the americans here. this might be all chance to try not count has belie while we've got the americans in the area. i'm so sorry sweet. and i think that, you know, if we look at just the hard military balance of power and the hardware that the americans have brought, it's, it's, it's significant. i mean, i don't think the americans certainly not in the 2006 war 11 on when i was there or otherwise, have brought that degree of fire power off the shores of a root and off the shores of lebanon. and as daniel said, that creates a real moral hazard. and i just a, there's a, there's a further point because we can all talk about the realm of, of realism and, you know, and, and even unintended consequences. but i think we need to be clear that there are

a number of actors both within the next a has bella leadership within the israeli government, within these really leaderships, combined with other groups as well. i'll guide and others who would very much like to see a huge consultation. how are we going to be, or is this religious game of back and forth, going to be able to be contained by rational thinking, a good question. so, but i didn't know what it will be. all right, let me, let me bring daniel back into the discussion since then you got us rolling on this point. what is well, be able you think, to fight to full blown conflicts in the south and the north and whatever, all the players that drags in in the region even with us banking. so this is, i think why there is a dilemma inside these rudy systems including significant leadership,

political and military voices pulling in both directions. and that is not the best of my knowledge in indications we have been a decision make it possible. you have a significant amount of these rasp. ready already tied down on the northern facts, not participating in the south because of the possibility. and because of the degree of existing escalation is rel, seats a red hot, unique opportunity to direct people in america. to this, it sees a rare opportunity to have the public ready to make the sacrifice and its narrative, which is why was paying attention to is one called go back to the same situation. and then no, just as in the south, one needs to totally re shuffle the equation. one call still have the, uh, is ray communities in the north facing district. now that doesn't make the decision has been by. however, as we've said,

was discussing dos. the potential straight into the west, but we haven't mentioned east jerusalem. either the fee involved, which is being stepped up. this will suggest the may be israel sees, this is the time this is with america. this is the opportunity and these ro, i think, just trying to do something, which it will prove unable to engage, that you're not gonna one second in dogs. you're not going to eradicate from us. but it also is right, is trying to re a cert overwhelming military per conference. and i don't think that is available to israel in the contemporary weekend. it's all right, daniel held that, so we're going to come back to in a moment. if i could go to a sham, so if we're talking now about the possibility of some in these, by the government, the one to escalate this into a confrontation, but it has belong. daniel mentioned the who sees changing the regional situation

that must beg. the question, does israel ultimately want to drag the us as well into a confrontation with the wrong to deal with what it sees is the issue, the problem with the runs nuclear program and so on. okay, so um it's not that i disagree necessarily with nicholas, but i think we're looking at this from slightly different angles. when we say israel wants to do a or b or c. i think some of the things that happened that i think, you know, is the point that the son and i'm look, i'm to set but that that's the point right there. there is incredible dysfunctionality within the israeli cabinet and within the is right in the government. but so a leave aside what's going on right now pre october 7th, you had a prior to being detailed by and that's in yahoo and those close to him, but they desperately desperately wanted to have

a normalization deal with the the off with south generated. yeah. and this was an a most, you know, 1st priority. okay. whereas you had others like small children, been given of school, or frankly, they didn't really care. they were far more interested in increasing someone's activity on the west bank. and they would have pulled down his government if that being the slightest suggestion of any type of even symbolic concession towards the palestinians. so you have these competing things going on, even before this, late this up searching the crisis. and i think that what you have right now is within the is really the government. you're gonna get, you have different elements pulling and pushing in different directions and sometimes the same people doing, you know, totally different things on different days. um, so i think it's very wise to be incredibly concerned. i think that it's very easy to sleep walk and sleep. busy you know, after having been to sleep for like 10 minutes huh. into a very escalation,

airy pattern and paradigm. i think that goes is also correct. that there are right, different people within earshot, within his bottle and within history of the government that would be very happy to escalate at the same time. there are others also in there on that also in his butler and also in the israeli government that are not particularly interested in doing that right now. so again, as i say this without trying to be nice, i don't think we're really disagreeing as much as we're just looking at slightly different angles sooner and, and all of these, all of these pieces of the puzzle, i think a very important, because ultimately, let's see what the, basically just before we could at let's do late, we could escalate this good region allies extremely quickly where the people in attendance or not. and that's why i think within dc within london, this needs to be taken a lot more seriously. and frankly, right now it isn't at all. all right, i usually i'm good at reading body language and i thought i saw nicholas shaking

his head at some point. i looked to me like a bit of disagreement that i'll bring you in nicholas to come back on some of that if you wanted. are we looking at things from a different angle as patient i'm was pointing out. it was a for perhaps no i, i, i think i'm just, i think there's another angle that needs to be brought in, which is us domestic politics and perhaps, and is really reading of that or other readings of that. i mean, let's, let's see where we're at. we're 11 months out in the presidential campaign from looks like he's, he's going to win him and, and that kind of that grouping of republicans and would share. but some democrats are very hard line, you know, mike pompei of former secretary of state. so, you know, basically, you know, just the notes he's fire, you know, destroy, cause a more or less force destroyed him, us,

but the coding there and actually trump has been very upfront on this is he's got to flatten them. so what i'm concerned about is the moral hazard of the oppertunity in the daniel spoke about. and i'm worried about that coming together in this coming few days or weeks and buttressed by the fact that team members of these railey security and political establishment and government. a very much, at least on the record, have wanted to kind of run the table and to smash as bella and they have the question around 2 and the cousins, i do think it makes sense. is there an incentive for by then to put a more american boots on the ground in the middle east in another conflict, 11 months out of an election? of course. no, but he's in an impossible situation because he's tied his fortunes so strongly to fire netanyahu and abuse really government, who literally, i mean that those folks despise the progressive, despise the democrat,

and despise the obama biden team. anybody for the tags in the, in the same bhaskar i think is of all right, let me take that, that sideways nicely to what i was gonna ask, daniel, which is what is the widening of this conflict mean for nothing. yeah. whose political survival nice um. nothing yahoo, of course does not want the morning off. so whether it's da, so whether it's the whitening, i don't want to suggest to you that he's that for definitely going to to push the whitening. but the morning officers, the day of reckoning is the commission of inquiry. so i think what we're coming around to saying is 40 plus days into this. it hasn't gone into a regional conflict configuration. that doesn't mean it won't in america was trapped. i think that's it. probably doesn't make and i don't think we need to

waste words on o double standards and people proceed. and america trying to replace international know with whatever goes which it sometimes cools, the rules by susan actually ordering more profit sharing in the military industrial complex. what we know is america was funding by this was a craig, was when he's trying to do the logical somersaults that to we use those together with ways that copy wasn't together where he leaves us is america. and it's sad to say this, but it's just just to be as an american, as forcing us to say americans, the enemy at the enemy. how students here is the in naples as a continuation of this of pol type reality. and as such, we have to redouble our efforts elsewhere. it's good news. i think that a delegation from the league about states in the organization of these like a conference of origin, china going to europe as well. but we'll need to see a little more of this,

rather than waiting for america to deescalate. because the president of america has been very clear. do you find all the in the business spice? all right, let, let me take this point briefly to nicholas cuz i want to try and get a wedding from his child the full time job. whereas situation, obviously we see a lot of college and destruction of civilian life in guns up 35. you and experts wanting on november, the 16th that genocide is in the making, and they see is really genocidal intent in this. but is it a cheating? any strategic minute 3 objectives briefly? nicholas? oh, absolutely. and i think that that's why let's not discount there is strong support within the pentagon and within the binding ministration for what is really, is doing. they just want them to do it in a limited very rational and contain level fashion, which is the us and it's, we're both share a common goal at this point. they would like to see from mazda is military power

eradicated, and that would be a tremendous boost to the balance of power visa be here on and its allies, as well as the potential to help lubricate. they thing other normalization deals, so they see it's a terrible costs politically, morally, legally, whatever may be, but there is still, i think, a strong hope within some of the, by and ministration. certainly the president, definitely some of the pentagon that from us is military power. can be brought out of the regional military balance. okay. volume. surprising that audience. daniel, you touched briefly on this, is this happening off the more than 40 days of conflict? a coffee it is. i know you want to go to the shop side of so i'm going to let you do that. i'll always, always seeing some us being eradicated as an organization from gone. no, no that's. but i know we all know and it, what happened to the extent to which days degradation. i think you started questionable how to solve that goes and we will see later, but from us it was

a politic be strengthened. all right, you'll take on this does, does the us have a clear, a kind of road plan for where this will goes to then if, as i think, if i've understood nicholas as well as daniel correctly, that might not be happening. they may not be able to eradicate how mass. so i think the problem with asking about america's plans for the day after it's being very clear about what it's plan is supposed to look like in terms of the return of the p a in terms of an arab of force within garza. and so, but at the same time, it's being rebuffed in terms of any are of elements on the ground. when it talks about a 2 state solution, it says nothing about the removal of supplements in the west bank. so it says these lovely sort of lovely, it says the different points of any day after plan,

but it isn't actually doing anything to ensure that that they, after blind comes to fruition on the country. it's an art building and strengthening the way the government on actually countering that plot. they're all big problems to be discussed so that i have to leave it at this point. so now let's thank our guests, daniel levy, nicholas know, and h a hello. yeah, thank you for watching to you can see the show again any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com. and for further discussion head over to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story can also join the conversation on x. i'll handle virus at a inside story from a sam is a that and the entire team here for now, it's good 5. the, the cutoff from that higher risk base has become

a make shift time for some palestinians. and the goal is to strip. it was a local government building design to support us is our account for display. these men were employed under a game and israel made with the goals of labor ministry which allowed a set number of people to work in israel. but on such a day, employee is acting on his way. the police instructions were told to take them to check points at the park. west bank we are talking about as we speak, 550. this number might just tries to a 700 or maybe a 1000 because people are keep, they are keeping pouring ones they are discovered inside israel handed over to these read the minute 3 and they own val just simply left off to being beaten and accumulated on patrick points to find their way to the, to the surface. everyone who is watching the news on their mobile phones and like, you're right. they don't watching full the news. they weren't seeing that. he was being destroyed in real time. they can't get home and there's nothing they can do about it. i mean the world slow down, we stand for as homes with tips of global nickel reserves. indonesia is foyce to

leave the global, the battery industries. we definitely manage our abundant resources and play a role in solar energy. harnessing offerings, 75 percent of global carbon credit suspension committed to being fine, mental protection, enhancing investment climate digital licensing, your better tomorrow. the, [000:00:00;00] the, you're watching the news, our life from a headquarters and del fine getting navigators are coming up in the next 60 minutes . 31 newborn babies have been moved from dallas as main hospital for more than 200

patients are still stuck in a shift off unable to leaves a desperately to solve with gauze a strain medical system. the health industry says the region is in dire need of make shift, hospitals, fuel and medicine. israel keeps up, it's bombing campaign on garza targeting schools and residential buildings in both