in your opinion is divided and got germany fully supports as well, while others like saying belgium, an island on waiting for an end to this. so what's behind these divisions? it's kind of a split season, right? any 4 rolls, this is inside score the color there and welcome to the program. i'm gonna start to attain. the war on gaza has exposed deep divisions within the european union on policy to with israel and palestine. the only units he found has been in condemning him us and its attacks on october 7th, which killed around $1200.00 israelis. but there's been no such unity against as well as coming of thousands of palestinians,

most of whom were women and children. at one end, germany police reports as well as the of the belgium one sanctions. the eu has strong trading ties with israel into new on supplies, but also provides humanitarian aid for palestinians on cultural and supporting levels as well. takes pause in european football for example. unlike the bad on russia since the ukraine war. so can you policy on goal? is that even give defined when it's also divided? is it effectively pro israel? is this for changing positions for bringing? i'll guess in just a moment, but the fast this report from offensive on the european union is divided on gaza speaking in the european parliament, the books foreign policy chief addressed the growing rift between those who support israel. war and those who sympathize with the place with the palestinians that we have said, possibly we ought to be able to defend the palestinians rights to have a state without being categorized as anti submitted. and it ought to be possible to

criticize the policies of israel. the european union was quick to condemn the mazda attack on israel, on october 7th, the killed around 1200 people, the european commission present, or to level underlying went to tel aviv in a show of solidarity. in the face of this speak couple of tragedy. there's only one possible response, europe's stance with ease ralph. but since then, the us failed to form a united position on these real subsequent bombing from the ground campaign and gaza. that's killed around $15000.00 palestinians. individual countries are going the roadway and engaging in their own diplomacy. some like german, chances are all of schultz hubbard, jackson calls for permanency fire phones, laptop. he said to us it remains clear. so is there a has the right and responsibility to defend itself as part of the humanitarian role of international law. since the leaders of spain in belgium was recently built

in the middle east, at or among the vocal advocates of the lasting truce. the time has come to break for good, these endless cycle of violence that has condemned the region for dickens. we cannot afford unable a easy way. nissan putty stains cannot afford to continue to the funds of the coast and strip of conflict and war. in recent weeks, there's been some consensus on humanitarian aid, but on the war itself, many members states remain far apart the european union as far as the common front on major international issues, including the conflict and ukraine. but the war and gaza is exposed lingering divisions that will not be easy to overcome. bins and ball him for inside story. well, as i mentioned, you support for israel over the years has also intruded on this contract. out of this month, as the war involves, a raged finland degree. the deal is relative supplied with an air defense system. last $340000000.00. over the years,

according to the stop on international peace research institute, germany. and if we haven't 2 of the main you on supplies to as well. now over the past 10 years, berlin has provided more than a 1000 tank engines to is around one of the authors and warships and submarines, the weapon systems where then lation added by israel. since the old type of 7th attacks germany has authorized 10 fold increase in its defense, exports to israel valued and move in $300000000.00. and on a smaller scale, italian companies also provide a steady supply of arms to israel, that trade as well as an estimation of $12000000.00 here. a well, that's not bringing a guess that old joining us from brussels, the headquarters of the youth. great. so sullivan is a member of the european parliament representing between policy, an island. she's also a member of the european parliament's delegation for relations with palestine. mazda in connection is the founder and director of the european middle east project,

an independent organization specializing in european and international policies on the israel palestine conflict. and we also have suzanne lynch. she's the chief brussels correspondence of politico and also hosts it's podcast. you confidential. thank you so much for joining us today on inside story will welcome to to each of your suzanne. i'll start with you because i know you were on the ground the in the building. the last you summit. can you give us a read at the moment of, of the tone of the conversation. we obviously know that the divisions are the how entrenched, ave, and i think they are extremely entrenched. i think the problem for the you is that european commission in particular doesn't really have a strong role when it comes to foreign policy. at the end of the day, this is the province of each and every state. the you comprises 27 different countries, and a lot of the time, as you mentioned, the reports they coalesce and what they, what they believe, for example, with rushes invasion of ukraine was pretty much full consensus about how to respond

to that on the is really a palestinian issue, however, it has always been a very divisive issue. so you have a very different perspective on that complex if you are, for example, in germany and austria, or if you're in spain and ireland. i think one of the, the failings of the e with that in the early days in the days following october 7th. after that, how much the type of israel european commission president earth of underlying i'm the heavier in parliament, roberta metzler, decided to go to tennessee to show their support to isn't as we're getting consults with, with others, did not consult with the other parts of the you and indeed at by member states. so although they had the support of some concrete for this. so i'm going to be more unhappy that they went and spoke for your on that. so it seems that i think the has been struggling to project united front to put on its own version of the own stamps on the issue. and they've been on the back foot reading since october, the 7th, about getting ahead of the story and trying to establish some kind of

a unified stance on this grace youth and very, very critical, open and critical of the european parliament and how and will the lack of stones on, on this issue has the turn, the shifted as this war has continued and, and we've seen the death toll rise and gaza. i think there is a very slight shift. so i suppose going back to several months, i received the west bank of east jerusalem and we were asking as when we came home from batch, you mentioned that there would be cute and communication in relation to the at the cost is ready. so the dresser, and there was no oftentimes, whatsoever really there is no appetite for any and it wasn't to engage on the level. and now these, the slides shift, i think we're seeing and is that we have and the you for the chief burrell

today, saying that the recognizing polyps time will provide security for is raise a piece for alice done. so there is a slight shift. nevertheless, i completely agree with slots suzanne was saying, i mean the has to be absolute chaos as since the sense of october and mixed messaging, no clear lines of communication from the you in relation to the situation. and there are things we can do. i'm the bank here action so we can take a watch we're calling for. so we look at the, at trans relationship with israel, a where there are a obvious and it's national breaches of law. and then we have to take some action. so we're seeing kind of a don't speak read because i'm one of the terms of a new grain and russia. b,

e u is quite at your consistent in terms of how to sign a gaza. this is where we are a, we are not see clear direction whatsoever. and this is a, this is a huge problem. hold on. contrast has been very stocks around this complex grace. you talked there about this, this chaos that, that's an edge in the u. lawson. let me ask you a little more about that because divisions at the member state level on all of that on comment. but that has been a lot of division to seemingly at very high levels of leadership styles. michelle, the president of the european council asked of underlying the, the president of the european commission they haven't exactly been seeing eye to eye on this. can you unpack some of those dynamics for us? yes, exactly. i mean, the divisions between members stays are kind of usual on this issue. but as i already mentioned, what has been that may be the unique or unusual about the response to this

particular crisis. is the, the, the stance taken by the president of the urban commission and the president of the european parliament. but i'm, it's along the president of the commission is also left on their line. and they have taken the positions which firmly decided with israel and with the is really narrative. and that created a division at the, at the level of the leadership, as opposed to them. mr. barella, whom you have mentioned already, the b u for in police achieve the to cool, let's say much more motor at a nuanced position. and cheryl michelle, the president of the open council has been somewhere in between them. i would say closer to bureau. so yes, we have had divisions at the levels of member states and also at the level of the top you leadership. and i would say there have been also divisions within each member of state because ultimately this is because we, your opinions are divided about these issues. the, some of some of those national level dynamics in just a minute. but she's on,

you mentioned, we've been talking a lot here about leadership and you mentioned that trip that underlying made to israel very, very quickly off the october 7th and the off to month if there's a tax and there's been speculation about whether that was in, in her capacity is as a german politicians or as an e lead. and obviously germany is taking a very, very strong stance on this. and they've been very pro israel, there's obviously a huge amount of history there as well. can you explain that a little for us? yeah, i mean, it is important say the earth of underlying is the german politicians, use the german representative of the european commission. and i think instinctively as she decided to go to israel and i think her political mistake was that she didn't. ringback envisaged that this would be controversial. i think she genuinely didn't see the problem with this, but she would maybe need to consult with other people that this is going to be a divide division sheet. you went there, what i kind of thinking we know did not inform. you also have browse a fire apology or sharing michelle who represents member state. so we know that

happens. i do think that is does reflect her nationality. i mean, her background comes from, she's got a lot of german advisers as well. and i mean, the reality is germany because of their history because they have to the heart of costs and have a very pro israel stance and it's foreign policy. and i've been burden myself a few weeks ago and this came through, i mean, to the coalition government and jeremy 3 different parties are in government. and it is cross party defense that and they see the pro israel and is there as right as they see to defend itself. of course, their own foreign policy. now they're not alone. germany also have this. and others, countries that have to santa cruz, austria and they can check for public hungry, etc. so, i mean that is because germany is the biggest country in the, you know what it says masters. so i think the other issue for a bundled item next lot is that they left it a little bit too long after october the, some of the tax for the by the administration factory banking went fairly quickly

in a few days and then reached out to some of the goals countries they left it on. so maybe 6 days afterwards went to tubby and there was no way of reach to any arab countries. and so i think again, that was the kind of know even she about how this would play across the words, even the american divide administration, you know, it was more an you, on it's pro, even at that stage which she, you know, it how she's ever coming to the end of the 5 year mandate at the moment we've elections next year are designed to die. and i'm going to that a very strong commission presents very popular. this is our 1st kind of big mishap, i think. so he's definitely be on the back porch at since that's a reaction played out in the week or so following the october, the 7th attack as your annual, saying that that, that the support in germany for israel seems to across the political spectrum that i, i was interested to see that even the greens of obviously come out very strongly pro israel very mountain contrast to to your grand policy and islands. grace is that something that that took you by surprise?

you know, not necessarily because a suzanne said, i mean in germany you have it's, it's the history and, you know, and the german greece are and you know, large and here in new york parliament, as the germans, the group are large, the largest group and in our case, so eh, i'm not all together as surprised. however, i think it shows a weakness here in new york. the you, you were members from a smaller and, and parties are government and you know, are almost as a disadvantage. so that germany because it's the largest m, as in the and the largest country with members in new york and union, that they almost have a disproportionate amount of leverage. and i think i actually found that i made

a huge mistake. and by one, the consulting and just taking off and to tell it to be in sports. and, but i do think that governments learn cartons, you know, we'd be extremely consistent. and even today, now the irish boss here too, is there a is b as being a brought into the didn't it for a discussion because of we over the weekends, the prime minister of foreign invitation to the over. i search his comments on the release of the hostages and the language to use. so at it, but just go back to your m. i still think we are not a working together as a to you as a union, which is our primary function. and we're not sure it's not to your messages on an

stage of and working it out and coming off with the unified position where it was due for june. we're still on shore. i mean, it just isn't good to know. and for example, the fact that we haven't cause bruce calls for a cease fire, then we call for humanitarian pause. this is from my perspective, just not good enough. i want to get to some of that language and just a minute but, but more than just staying with this idea of, of divides on, on the lines of the political spectrum, which we've just been talking about. do you think that that's probably the case across europe? you were talking earlier about divisions within countries themselves and, and how to approach this? yes, i would say there are divisions in each country, but um, you know, ireland is different from germany and germany is different from, uh, let's say france and uh, you know, took republican hungry are somewhere else as well. so within each country you have divisions, right? but let's say in ireland all the major parties,

including on the center, right. i agree with a strong calls for, you know, respect for international law, for example. whereas in germany, even the greens. yeah. and even the socialists on the sense for west wouldn't be very cautious about expressing any criticism, or any qualification for, for the is riley operations. so the context differs from the country to country. but within each country, you will have the feeling internally, bates and even political conflicts in friends. for example, the, the less tween coalition preparing for the elections, the urban elections next year has actually broken down around this issue. so it has really serious political consequences in different countries in europe. last time we've also seen the, the rise of the fall rise in many countries in europe. and i'm curious about how that plays into, into this dynamic. yes, it plays into in very much because for the the far right and even the hard drive

which is really ascendant is growing in europe. you saw the results of the ducks, the elections last week in which the far right party one all these far right back. these are very strongly supportive, unconditionally off of israel and even some of them explicitly of the occupation and building of supplements. so that's the case of this dr leader, and that's because a for them is ro, is a sort of a model of a country which applies very tough lines against the other, you know, the therapy and muslims, which links to the debates about immigration and integration in europe and societies, so these 2 things connected together and that kind of overlap and isn't all post. i'm becomes a part of a kind of a culture war which is going on in europe around these issues. say that do, do you agree with that?

but the idea of this being part of that sort of cultural and unter is, does this also the way that europe has approached this or, and that this lack of unity are around this issue. has that affected the way that the was seen outside of the by, of, by our, of states potentially as well. i think that is one of the dangers for the you and you've heard figure is like yoga brown, the foreign policy chief, he's taking pretty much more pro palestinian at stance on this. she has raised concerns about this. he's worried about the impact this is going to have on the ease, reputation in the wider area. and actually today they're the kind of a sub meeting in spain and with member representatives. i'm out of a country but also from across europe, different foreign ministers to try and talk more about, you know. ringback what the situation post war am and maybe you know, see fire ideas and that kind of thing. so i think that was a worry among some people that e would lose, some coverage would lose at some respect from certain countries. and in the goal,

for example, in the middle, wider in the middle east because of the way it handled at the, the attack in the 1st place. and in saying that, i do think this is a problem for the because ultimately the e. u is a very important institution. it's, it's one of the biggest trading docks in the world. it's, it's almost 500000000 people. but the road is not really the major foreign policy player. it's not a military power. you know, that's the job of nature probably. and more than the you, for example, he did a big trading blog and, and what it does matters what even with the war and you claim on what, where it's had the most factors on sanctions and those kind of things rather than that hired movie power. so it says, i think it's underlined to many how unimportant and one way that you is when it comes to foreign policy because we the situation, you mentioned the summit there a few weeks ago with all of the leaders math here in brussels. why they were haggling about language for like 5 or 6 hours, whether they would use the word pauses or pauses. it won't even be coverage. and it's really media people didn't even know does media was happening and brussels. and i think that kind of show that disconnect that even though there's,

there's agonizing debate here in brussels. i buy these dams. it's limited in terms of what impact that is actually having on the ground and whether, you know, it is having much effect on how this war is paying ash. susanna is just want to pick up on something, you know, as and said that the focus for that. so i lost those. you diplomats, joseph brown, in particular, has been on the so called day off to on this kind of trying to define a post for future. for, for the past an entire trees. she's on. do you think so? that's partly because there's been so much division around this language, humanitarian pause seized by you man. his hearing pauses that they are all the focusing on something that that is perhaps it's easier to find consensus on. yes, perhaps. and it's interesting the way to see where they co last. so for example, you're hearing a lot of language from brad particular by the you went to the united nations generally has taken, you know, it caused it as taking more. we would try, we say at balanced approach reflection the make up of the you. and so you're also

going to hear from beretta, for example, i mention of and you end because at to adhere to international law etc at. but i do think though with well, eat what's happening, you know, behind the scenes that a lot of the bigger countries from ad germany who are members of the g 7 or the g 20. like are all subject to discussions happening on that level. and they're also talking close to the u. s. position to u. k. position. so i think, as well as the use jobs, you've also got the other layer where some of the big or you can do that part of that and are privy to those conversations. and so i don't really anything is happening in a vacuum here for all the talking with the getting his dance or all the other view and the g 20 g 7. and they're also part of the conversation with some of the countries being part of those. and i think that's impacting how they're speaking about this grass. i see you're noting now i want to bring you in here and also just ask us to reflect upon that the role of the u. k. is what kind of an impact it can make it as soon as i'm saying, in some cases it might be considered

a little bit peripheral. but is the, you potentially very powerful in its ability to influence all the powerful places we offer to the or, and to, to be more involved. but i definitely think with a b, b, b new itself. we've got to get our own house and order very, very quickly. and we have to a, you know, and trying to come to some kind of a unit by position. but we need this for to 80 to need this conflict to aims because the loss of civilian lives, the loss of humanitarian worker is likes the you and they're losing people. i mean, that's such, it's such a to stop at a loss of life. that's and you know, the, you most engage more positively. i tried to restore the damage in grief. don't add to the, the whole union. and over the last course of weeks because we happened and we

haven't shown the capacity to give some leadership leadership. and even on the, i mean, the fact that i, i said i'm doing their incendiary and already, you know, do it will do is no charge within new york and union to discuss the situation prior to the 7th of october attached, then we have to move towards the 2 state solution back to my mind of, i know and, but with the strong irish leticia, we've been hearing that as well. so the last ever we're, we've been hearing on a lot from, from you. lead is in terms of a tree state solution. and joseph brown has been reiterating again today that they envision only that the palestinian authority would be the body that would have to take control of a postwar garza mountain. i want to bring you in here on something that grace mentioned and that's age. you aid to palestine. now obviously

a huge amount of that age goes through the palestinian authority, the p a. how much do you think that a bias the easiest way and, and trying to help determine a postwar palestinian future as well. the data is given to to the palace going inside only so it doesn't buy much influence with the israeli side. although it probably is actually has it as a strong interest in the continuation on august aid because it's sort of helps keeps the ability and to continue the know the is really okay patient. um, so uh, i think the issue here is with um being able to apply the use of leverage to, to the, to both sides. and in particular as well as, as the okay buying party. people can agree on the 2 state solution as a slogan. and it is, you know, interesting to see that that's where you have more unit the, uh, every, everybody is now talking about it. but um,

how do you move beyond the slogan if you want to actually advised the 2 state solution? one of the things it means is for example, countering the girls the, the on the is really supplements in the west bank which make the 2 state solution impossible. and this is where you immediately get into a problem take of or so from there line of about who we have spoken. her stance is on, on the last month. arnold knew actually, and you know, when there was a discussion about how to address the possibility of annexation of the west bank, she stood on the brakes and she prevented a discussion about the possible you measures to oppose the annexation. so this is where there is a problem, you know, people agree on the slogan. but as soon as we move into discussing police policy measures that could help advance the 2 state solution. you'll get a division and you'll get a blockage from people and governments who the side unconditionally with is wrong. let me bring you in here. sorry. is it just very briefly suzanne,

because that's been a lot of discussion about what countries can do. and here we're talking about various different policies on various different issues that are very contentious in israel and the occupied palestinian territories. some countries are now obviously going a lawyer and we've seen belgium come out with some very, very strong language. there's, i believe even some legislation in the works to, to band trade with settlements in the occupied territories. she's on. do you think that as you, as you sit back in the you that we might see other countries try to do the same? yeah, so think it kind of, i mean, at the end of the day, countries are quite protective when it comes to where to buy their own foreign policy. and yes, others that are mean to you just wants to have the united sense for the end of the day, the each countries have his own foreign policy. so i do think that you're going to see and your, your have been seeing each country take its own stance on this to the extent and am reflecting their public you, but also their political view,

that the collision government, etc. and i think you're going to see more of that and they're growing so strange them on some countries that the with, you know, taking too long for like statements and on this it over the last few days that it's very hard for me to even put out of statements because you've got the 27th that reviews you some countries blocking a statement. so yeah, i think we are going to be seeing some more kind of unilateral news or countries taking a stronger stance either way on this issue. well, thank you all her reflecting on this with me obviously this isn't an a huge issue going forward as the conflict seems set to continue grace or sullivan mountain connect she and she's on lynch. thank you so much for joining us here on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see this program again any time by visiting our website out. is there a dot com as of other discussion do those well, facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash a inside story friendly. you can also join the conversation on x handle is at a inside story for me and as long as you pay on the whole team here. and uh huh. bye for now the

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join us and let's discover a better world expo. 2023. the 2 more days. the 1st spice for the millions of people struggling to survive. and that the devastation in gauze on israel, and how much to agree to extend the cease fire in a deal announced by cats are the you're watching all to 0 life or my headquarters and don't find any you navigate is also coming up the when says more people will die of disease then bombardment in

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