miss bird trade unions and members of civil society have been holding demonstrations calling for an immediate cease fire and gaza. south africa's parliament voted last week, recommending the closure of the is really embassy in the country and a suspension of diplomatic ties for me to middle. it has more from johannesburg. the poll a free palestine resonates with many south africans because of. so that's because apartheid history, they say the palestinians are going through exactly what people have color in south africa when for decades. and so many of us have grown power allows between no parties real and, and a partridge south africa. they say 2 countries that work together from 1948 to achieve their uptake to many people in the usa. they're hoping that they're present, that this demonstration will bring take. this is going to hold us about the service

advisor trust the car and holler at the 227 healthcare where it could have been killed in garza hospital. and the civilians and soldiers that had been talking to dozens of organizations have come together in johannesburg. they're a made up of political parties and joe's a civil society organizations, but they won't have one thing in common. they're quoting for a priest, palestine, i'm in to the genocide. they say they also want to so the african government cuts, diplomatic ties with the israel, that has been on the debate for a number of weeks now. he's old african parliament has held a votes. always the resolution was false and sold. africa should indeed save a ties with israel, but ultimately it's up to the president soto my poor. so i and there's been no word from the president, all the cabinets on what south africa will do next. but protests like this continue

around the country. they've been posted in maine cities like devon johanna is but where we are as well as cape town and there are a number of quotes his plans to the coming days. so me the, i'll do 0 to his book or the policy and flag has been raised in nor ways capital in solidarity with the people. have garza but you in general, assembly adopted the partition of palestine on november 29th 1947. and the mayor of the norwegian capital says those with a palestinian background should feel safe in the country. and that's it for me. 0. then you will be back at the top of the hour with continuing coverage of israel's one gaza at this hour. there still hasn't be in the release that is really captives from gaza. we're waiting for that and any information will be able to bring the we don't simply focus on the public, accept the conflict. it's the consequence of wars,

the human suffering that these are 4 times. it is one of the most serious spouts of violence in recent years. we brave bullets involved because we give voice to those demanding freedom the rule of law. and we always include the views from all sides of the war on gods as being waged on the ground. and in the realm of public opinion, bring some of our core values to the test. what does the silencing of supporters of palestine say about the world right now? what are the consequences of stifling voices at times of war? and these forces and this is the stream, the best bet, okay, was given to me by an employee of this building who said they were told they could not wear this badge because it was the palestinian flag in the speakers have been silenced, accounts have been removed this is cancelled culture, it appears melisha better that has been quietly fired from scream 7 due to her

vocal support for palestine on social media. after susan surrender has been dropped by her agency after some comment she made at a pro palestine. really the article 19 of the universal declaration of human rights weeds. everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression. but since demonstrations in solidarity with palestinians were temporarily band. and critics of israel censored, fired, or even detained for speaking their minds. many of us are left wondering if free speech comes at a price since the last attacks and israel's war on gauze and began in october, it's gotten even worse. we reached out to many potential guests for this show. they declined our invitation for fear of more repercussions. thankfully, we weren't able to bring a group of very important voices into today's conversation. rena workman is

a law student at new york university. jack espy nose is a member of the new proxy i took up with at least the new anti council this policy and a student in paris. and mohammed rabbani is a director also cage and walk us the organization based in london. a warm welcome to all of you. thank you very much for joining us today. jack, i would like to start with you. is that so can you were students and parents who were part of the movements that attempted to take to the streets to support posting and civilians in gospel you are not allowed to do that. can you tell us a bit about what happened as well as soon as the tax on the gaza started the bombings. there was obviously a lot of people in france and in paris to and i wanted to take to the streets, unexpressed, for solidarity. and, well, it was simply outlaw, it's been a only a few weeks since protests industries have been authorized by the government by the

state. and at 1st, we had to fight against the banning of the protest. the 1st thing we have to do it and being with other organizations was taken to the court because we didn't want to let our solidarity be hostile. and this eventually works, of course, the 1st couple of weeks. it was a band also by the courts, but eventually to pressure of the streets of just how many people in every city in france wanting to protest through the solidarity. it became into vegetable and people started tickets in the streets. we had to fight police brutality to was a certain protest were police find hundreds of people and each of hundreds of yours, they took people into custody. and the repressing of course, is not over yet, but we managed to express our so they're already in the streets. and now we still face a lot of refreshing, especially in workplaces and universities. but the fight is not over. we marked

a certain point. oh, we'll definitely get to it to other forms of, of, of, of refreshing it, as you say. but for us is obviously very well known for organizing protest suite. and we say that it's in the french dna to demonstrate all the time and wasn't the 1st time that you actually saw protests being bound to know. uh, obviously the french government has been on an authoritarian course for the past couple of years. uh, there was police brutality, mainly dis, summer against the riots because of the races, the police that killed the 17 year old guy in france and there was even much more police brutality actually. but summer, it's not a new thing, certainly not. but when we managed to push them back, when we managed to make them afraid of being too brutal, it's when we're as many as possible in the streets. it's one where as many as possible in solidarity and fighting. but i think in those protests are obviously, uh, not isolated. and as you said,

it's part of the dna. but it's also part of just the story of the cat last past couple of years in there. i've been with us for palestine also in the past couple of years in france, rena, in the us, the climbed down is taking different forms and a lot of it is playing out in college campuses. you were the president of the n y, use a student bar association with us until you posted a statement and supports of palestine. can you tell us more? yeah, so i'm a law student at n y u. and in my role as president, i put in a weekly column to our student bar association newsletter. and on october 10th, i decided to use that column to express my own solidarity with palestine. within 24 hours. i had lost my job and by the end of the week, the administrators at my school had removed me from my duties as president. wow,

that's, that's quite a response on how much i would like to turn to you. can you introduce the organization? you're representing here to date cage. can you introduce the work you guys do in, in just a few words? it? yeah, sure. thank you for having me. um, how organizations that human rights and jo ann operates as a watchdog on government policy. and again, in particular policy that's related to counter extremism counter terrorism. we've been documents that work. so who mentions the pallets? and what we've done is we've been assisting individuals. we have more than 153 cases in which we're going to feed on people from various backgrounds, the facebook question kind of restrictions based on the public. so the downstream in the past and same stuff starts with the war. have you received more calls for help? i oh, absolutely. i mean it shuts up completely because whereas most of our past work has been at the shaw and all kinds of chairs and policy. and what we found is because

it's a, it's almost like a whole society approach. bestbuy implemented from top down government policies dictated unconditional support to israel. and then what's happened is ministers. education to bong police all the way down to school, even implementing that policy and teaches social work, his parents, children, or even facing a bunch of that. any expression of publics with it out. she gets the kindest time is being faced with scrutiny and restrictions. oh, well, we're off as a going to talk about the wider implications, but i want to go back to a point that jack has made to the factor in france and germany and austria. these protests were initially banned by or force he's we, some demonstrators actually arrested for waving the palestinian flag or simply for using slogans such as stop the war or a free palestine. i'm since then, of course, many of these demonstrations,

these bands have been lifted. but i wanted to get your impression in terms of the atmosphere in these countries right now in the case of frost. what is the context like for even i don't know, organizing meetings and discussions about what's happening in gaza as well. the context is actually quite similar to what mohammad was just saying and we were in high schools and universities at the very local level. there are people obviously want to organize, wanted me to want to express their solidarity because they feel that the fight of the palestinians is also verified and they want to be with them. but we see, oh, the big climate of people being pressure, people are fearful. sometimes of expressing simple solidarity opinions, and it's not for no reasons at all because there was a meeting about 40 students in the strasburg university who met up last week to discuss how they could mobilize for palestinian. and it's all arity and the police

came to the meeting and started taking pictures of the people. so that's just to give an idea of the climate. it's a climate the presence of climate where it's tough to express. anything that doesn't go in the direction of what the french government wants, and it's not so different in berlin. it's not so different and again, oh rena, what about in the us? can you tell us a little bit more about the atmosphere? and now i mean, have you been able to defend your position? have you been able to, i don't know. even talk to your former employer about getting that job back. yeah. so i employer actually has not reached out to me and i was never able to defend my statement or say anything clarifying only about the statement because it all happened so fast. and i think that, you know, even at the university level with my law school, we're still not seeing this kind of the ability for people to be consolidated with

palestine without it being framed as you know, supporting terrorism or not carrying about civilian life. and i think that's really harmful because that's not what we're asking for. we're asking for, you know, human rights to be respected and in this like gruesome bombardment of gaza. and i just think those are very different things than what's being per trade and read into our statements a solitary. and we're not given the chance to actually clarify that it's just taking in very bad faith, actually what we're writing and what we're saying. and that's really unfortunate, especially on college campuses and exactly, especially in college campuses. and that is, that is supposed to be the space, right. a safe space for the bank for the debates of ideas now. exactly. and i think it's even worse because we're seeing that, you know, students at undergrad institutions, even in law school as well, but just the inability for students to do anything really and solidarity with

palestine without heavy police presence, not just campus safety, but in new york we seen, you know, n y, p, d, b called to these universities to physically repressed students from showing solidarity whether that be in the form of protest rallies or citizens. and it's just a big hindrance to our ability to express our 1st amendment rights. we have those in the us and i think that right now we're seeing those being taken away. if you want to use those 1st limit rights to show support for palestine. and i think that students, especially, should be able to feel like they have the space to find their voice and discover for themselves their opinions on issues. and those opinions should not be dictated to them by the u. s. government by their university administrators. they should be able to learn and educate themselves and decide for themselves who they want to be in solitary with. and i think that's not what's happening right now. it is very interesting that you say that and the importance of defending this 1st amendment

because also it's, it's so important to bring more context sometimes into this conversation. we also spoke to nathan for a jewish officer for says, criticizing israel is a lonely endeavor these days he told us how his latest book was received and the implications of having less space to discuss injustice and atrocity. in my book a day in the life of habits savannah came out on october 3rd 4 days before the october 7th attack. and or, and there were many jewish organizations that were interested in hosting me and having me and added together. we were traveling together and giving talks, and some of them did follow through and did a continue to have a speak after october 7th. but many of them did not. and even those that did express great trepidation about it, they said that you know,

in our community there's just not much openness to hearing this message. and we recognize the urgency of the message and how it's even more necessary now for us to understand what is the life of the palestinians leaving under is really rule. what are the reasons that we have not seen and the end to this occupation of over 5 decades, and that that space is really strong. the immediate implications are that it's much harder to a speak about this issue. be to understand it and see to, to have uh, you know, public opinion move toward actually pushing for changes that will address the core reasons that this conflicts continues. and this blood should continue. well, how much do you agree to the space for the base is actually shrinking and the,

the idea of criticizing the government of israel being considered and to submit it actually is that's a very dangerous precedent to and is being used to silence voices across the world . yeah, absolutely, i mean the cases that we're dealing with we can go on, you know, struggle, factual evidence play. the pattern that you see is that number one, the cases of the society and the 2 usually involves allegations of anti semitism. and one, when you clearly dba and you have a wrap, it, you realize actually the people who are being reported was simply criticizing as well as a, as a scientist set the colorado state. oh, even less than by they was in the opposing genocide, agendas auto policy. but somehow those to find a different planes interpret one of that as somehow to the end to judge and to

submit take. and then these innocent people are getting reported to the employee is sometimes like getting people to through the institution that they work. and if it's the, and a just and i shouldn't have a service or the education industry. and then one particular disturbing patent that we've noticed is we go around a dozen cases with mosques in the u. k. have now being reported to the child to regulate. and if you can look through the cases, you find that the accusation is that these people have been making prayers and those prayers in dora to make a blog. and in those do i know how they said something we just have to submit to. so we've got your appointment with a sec, you the nation state government is intruding on the private space of religious freedom, and these must mosques have been reported to the regulator. they find themselves now dealing with legal consequences. and so,

so that's the pension was inc. add another broad feature of what we think we can we, we realize is, and i've mentioned the 153 cases. but if you ask me how many of these have actually led to criminal charges for whole is less than 5, which means the effect is to create maximum publicity. creates an environment of lots of intimidation. to criminalize people get them both to get them arrested in some cases, but ultimately ultimately be there's no criminal defends being committed to. so a lot of these people, they're harassed through the system involved criminal justice, but been found to be innocent. so that's the old one of the best being created a climate of intimidation in order to destroy people from public to showing sort of cavities. but as we've seen, the motor across western countries in the capitals is not working because people

are still coming out and develop. but how alarming is it for you while i'm at this, this tendency of this, this attempt at least to silence these voices, especially in countries that are supposed to be the cause of freedom of speech as well. the people because he's extremely stalled because you only have to go back to your maximum to use and you realize how the same societies deal with the dual credit and how all of that was framed. schools were mentioned built a lot of schools were encouraged to talk about your great schools were encouraged to raise bundles for victims of that conviction. but the exact same school was the exact same as a jew, shits when it comes to the palestine situation where i'm innocent, people facing genocide, they're actually coming down. and they're, they're being criticized and sanctioned, even in some cases,

full nearly to think about the subject and public. so the hypocrisy stop the double standards are extremely c a, i'm in a sense, i think the public is, is now very much await to the reality. the traditional media and the politicians and the others. they seem to be very, very kind of isolated at the moment because of the general mood on the streets and online and especially much younger people is that they can see through these people present double sided. it is just very, very clear and there's simply these lines. mine will be posted in people. all right, now i see you shaking your nording american note, can you, can you get us your, your take a yeah. i think so. you know, something i've been learning about this situation is this double standard. and i know that in the us, one of our non profit organizations, palestine legal,

has done that the palestine exception to free speech here. and so we're seeing this where, you know, some people can talk about these issues in other circumstances like in ukraine, other instances of war and genocide. those are fine topics to talk about. and then especially in the classroom sense, we have all the discussions about the colonization and what that looks like and how you know, past atrocities are wrong and that can't happen again. and here's why. but when we want to talk about these issues as they happen currently, for example, in palestine, we are told that, you know, now is not the right time, or we're not educated enough on the topic to talk about it. and in fact, you know, universities have been actively suspending or prohibiting a teaching events from taking place at all. so you know, we have palestinian speakers who want to talk to us about these issues that we do have the information and that we are educated on the topic. and instead they're

being met with cancellations or rooms not being available to be reserved. and so i think this idea that you know, that some things are worth talking about and some aren't, is really harmful and it's very clear to students, you know, we come to these institutions to learn. and so when we're being told that some things you know, are worth learning about, or we're not allowed to learn about, we see that and it's not a hidden thing for us. and we recognize that for what it is. and i just hope that, you know, going forward these universities and these law schools understand that because we're students, we are very bright. we come to these institutions with a lot of qualifications. and we see that. and we're concerned that our, our ability to learn is being tendered in this moment. uh huh. i also want to talk about the very concrete impact of losing a job which has happened to you all over the world. there were reports of people

being fired from their jobs, which obviously has very concrete implications on people's livelihoods. we spoke to one attorney based in canada who posted on her linkedin, offering free legal aid to people facing academic or professional discipline. she told us what happened the day she put this up and well, you can do if your face has similar measures at work or at university. when i posted on linkedin uh, within 2 days i had received about 60 calls. and uh, in the weeks following, i received about 50 calls every day. um and although i didn't keep accounts so i must have been contacted by at least 200 or 300 people. and so, and i continued to becomes like that to this day by people. the 1st thing i would suggest is that people get in touch with the local lawyer. and i don't say that just because i am a lawyer. i say that because it's

a lot of the time this affects people's livelihoods, right. and it's incredibly serious to them, it can affect the future. and so i do recommend that people get in touch with a lawyer to figure out their options. and i say that because it is, it can be very scary. an isolated thing to be singled out called out. um, so speaking out about an issue um, including an off house side it's graham right now. so many countries save themselves as breed beacons of freedom of speech. and indeed, in the last few years, there has been so much debate about freedom of speech where speech that very fairly can be seen as hateful or repressive has been justified as simply free expression. and now in contrast, we have ordinary people, students, academics, football players, simply saying,

we don't want palestinians to be killed. we want to cease via and somehow that is seen as hateful and not within the limits of freedom of speech. well how many we're almost out of time would you have anything to add to what nora just. a there yeah, and we've seen that proximal in every single control so close to across the europe . i mean, people are using the jobs right now we're supporting a painting shift search. and these, if i ask you to search and he's been suspended simply for some posts online, so it is a widespread systematic policy. if you look at germany, you had only the other day. a n g o goes on to which was bad, right? so overall that, that picture that isn't merging is a systematic repression. it also has to be said here as well. everyone is now completing be as little space in the, in the international ways calling international goals that specially with system.

because it's quite clear that wisdom, governments and their political need is, can very publicly support magenta's auto policy with no one in percussion. so mean one, as i said before, made one the morning to meet the people who over the condition of the citizens of these countries, they can see through that. so the media is complicity. genocide of policy is also being established, but we love the public opinion is shifting and he's real easily propaganda. oh, i saw you all know, i think there to oversee the dangerous statement of losing faith in international law. it is a part of a pretty big picture of the one we end to show with, but i would like to thank you. none the less for joining us today. jack rena, and mohammed, thank you for your time and also of course, thank you for your courage. and thank you for watching. if you have

a comment about this episode, you can talk to us on social media. if you have a conversation or a topic that you like to flag for us, this is very much your show and we're always open to your suggestions. you can use the hash tag or the handle a stream and we'll look into it. take care. and i'll see you soon, the submits the world slow down, we stand firm as homes with tests of global nichols reserves. indonesia is points to leave the global easy battery industry. we definitely manage our abundant resources in solar energy, harness the offerings, 75 percent of global carbon credits essential, committed to environmental protection, enhancing investment climate, digital licensing, your better tomorrow. the

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the of the one single venue is good to have you with us. this is the news our lives from the coming up in the next 60 minutes. a mouse releases to is really russians. a 10 other is really captives and gaza are also expected to be free. and there is no word on an extension of the ceasefire yet, but talks are ongoing. the us as it is hopeful that there will be in agreements