the, the in a world where the news never ends. understanding what's behind the headlines is more important than ever. it takes listening to the people behind the news and to the journalist for reporting their stories except intimacy that makes every international story local at heart. i'm only can be that host of the take a daily news podcast, powered by the global reporting of al jazeera. find us where ever you get your broadcast is ro is reportedly using honda visual intelligence and it's more on gaza. the technology is being employed to select and expand potential targets. look with more than 15000 palestinians killed so far. what is the implications for civilians in gaza? this is inside story, the

hello, the warm welcome to the program. i'm joe. now how is rose? wall has devastated much of gaza the few days of calm under si, fi. we come off of all but disappeared now with these rel, resuming its strikes. and shelley is ready. prime minister benjamin netanyahu has repeatedly will and that he wants to eliminate, tomas and now it's is reportedly using new a technology to help it expand the potential list of targets which many fia could lead to even more civilian deaths. so let's take a closer look at this advanced warfare. it's been powered by large amounts of data that's faded into an artificial intelligence system, a and a i cold hub, sora translated from hebrew to meet the gospel, produces potential targets for his really strikes which are then confirmed by

members of unintelligence unit. the system allows the israel to identify much law, a much larger number of targets. at the same time, the scope of the bombing campaign has been broadened. even the low ranking i'm us fights is a considered potential targets for an ass striking. israel has also loosened its rules of engagement to allow for more civilian deaths in the pursuit of its objectives. the being reports of family homes being bombed with a most killing, a single how must fight to. more than 15000 palestinians have been killed in israel's war on gaza. we've all seen video showing entire neighborhoods destroyed by the bombing cutting edge technology is supposed to make war 5 or 5 more precise, but the evidence on the ground suggests the opposite may be true in gaza. the, well, let's bring in a guess seen to be met on rappaport, editor of local coal, a hebrew language,

new sites advancing citizen journalism and an independent media in durham, in the u. k. robot guys to been full lecture in peace and security at the university who specializes in ministry occupation and exit dynamics. and researches is really foreign and security policy, counting utrecht in the netherlands. jessica dorsey international lawyer with expertise in international humanitarian and human rights law. she also leads the realities of algorithmic wolf project that to attract university of will and welcome to each of you mentioned rappaport. i'd like to start with you, your outlet, local cool. did the investigative reporting that reveal details about the system apps or the gospel as it is, as it's a, it's not in english, in a piece of what type of the assassination factory set the scene for us. what is the system? how does it work in the system? uh it is. uh it is based on

a i uh it is. uh uh it just collecting the whole kind of free formation. you know, the, to what, uh the army itself. close a factory for producing uh, targets t x chief of staff, probably probably when he left his office about a year ago, he said that prior we would have to produced 50 targets a year. now we can prove use 100 targets a day. it seems that in the small pace is even higher. uh, exactly. how does these, uh, these product gets out good use. of course, we don't know exactly, and it's not clear, even if the intelligence itself, the confidence people, it's themselves know exactly. and they do know, you know,

how these are being produced by ai and they the, the older to, to execute an attack, of course, does a human, a decision in order to push the back to him. it's not approved by served from it, but it's mostly that will be yeah, well yeah, we'll get to that. i it's it's, it's a relative innovation and he's really warfare. it's not the 1st time it's been deployed. it was 1st spoken about back in 2021 the 11 days of war and 2121. when he's rel boasted then about fighting. it's 1st a i war using machine learning and advanced computing. now though, because even with great more advanced, yes. it's about defiance and i think what is really relevance is because at that turn, you know that there is this a producing of targets in, in a you, i worry and, and, you know, to pursue intelligence way the most,

the incriminating go may be blowing elementary to our investigation, he's not in the hands on forever. the target, there's a fine and in this fight suite them how many civilians are in this pocket. so what it appears that the army knows exactly how many civilians are leaving and such and such a product event deputy is being targeted for an attack. so the outcome of keeping sven's ease, practically known in advance. so this is what makes this use of a i really, we, me, we some, yes, on send this stuff. let me bring in jessica dorsey the we got a bit of perspective from metro and 50 targets a year. the used to be able to generate. now it's a 100

a day with this new technology which allows them presumably to get close to this 15000 targets that they've had seen just 35 days of all. that's according to the israeli army itself. and by comparison in 201451 days of war, then they hit something like 5 or 6000 targets, all of which accounts for the extremely high civilian death toll shockingly, i for this period of conflict. yeah, i think um, what that piece illustrated were 3 extremely concerning aspects. obviously the, the, the, the, the, the use of a i to generate at such speed, these kinds of targets or so not all the details aren't quite known yet. but certainly to push back on that narrative of precision in warfare. we're seeing entire city blocks, flattened precision is not on the order here. another issue highlighted in the

reporting from 972 is the non military targets, the power targets allegations that those were chosen to intend to create a shock for the civilian population. these are very concerning and legal terms, thinking along the lines of inc, the possibilities to try to terrorize a population. these kinds of things look at another really worrying aspect is that's the loose ending of the civilian casualties constraints. so essentially in a proportionality assessment under international humanitarian law, you have to think about your direct military advantage versus the kinds of civilian harms that you can expect. and when you loosen those constraints, that used to be something like permitting perhaps dozens of civilian casualties to now hundreds. this is a recipe for disaster that's being born by the brands of it is being borne by the civilians on the ground and is densely populated areas like casa. it's

a very concerning and, and from the international legal perspective, i think we have to be very, very well we need to push back as an international community on the proportionality questions, as well as distinction about what kinds of targets are being exploded in these situations. as their non military targets the he's directly contrary to national law. well, let me put this to real gust 10 fold reporting. and these really media grove describes the system's ability to order precision strikes while quite making sure as far as possible. there will be no harm to known in both civilians that comes from the report in the us, our enough newspaper. that's what these riley public is being told and that you've an event. you're going to look around and look at these figures and look at the devastation to wonder whether, you know, either the system is not working. or there's been a substantial policy change. and the ministries targeting is simply indiscriminate . and i think it's the policy change. that's what masses here, and we focus on the

a i and but we have to look israel's objectives. and as for traditionally, when his role is gone to war or engaged in conflict with him, us, and indeed what has but it's been a step, is quote, empower israel's objective, has been to basically reinforce the stuff is quote, to project is the tyrants to get the other side to be invested in the status quoted, this incentivize them from trying to change things at the top. so up to the 7th. and then all of that was basically what, what was that is why we shuffled it's a security conception. it moved from preserving the stuff as quote to trying to create a new stuff to score. so it's real objective in this what stage the objective is removing him mass from power or the very least eating a crippling blow that would entail killing or capturing the groups military leaders . removing it from a governance role in the most or one of the goal is

a strict for example, i'm dealing a lease. so late the blow to is military. when i say that requires a completely different and that's completely different operational question for the all idea. if it previously, they were looking at to keep things the way they are, the fact that they keep, they now want to change things mean the, israel's targeting parameters have been brought in significantly. and we know the is recognition. the operates by what's been described as a traffic light system that they know how many civilians are in these locations. and they code them via red, yellow, and green ad, depending on how many siblings of a i'm the high value of the target. read always the meetings, meaning that they are less likely or shouldn't the type green meaning that we talk to be a go on because it has different items because israel societies reading from there's a tax on october, the 7th at those um the gold coast of shifted significantly and as well as you said previously that has significantly road,

it's hard to think parameters. many of those targets that were previously red or yellow has now become green. because israel has different types of objectives in this war. that is, the removal of from us learned is that what you're reporting revealed essentially that last the system is able to get pretty accurate data about the numbers of civilians in any given targeted area. that data is actually being used to decide to attack in some cases rather than not to attack. yes, of course. uh, i think uh there is. uh uh, it's true to try and change the goals of the score. uh different uh the um, the sources that we have talked to, you know, are not in the, in a position to know exactly what are the goals of the higher military commands. but it's clear that the goals are different,

but the goals are to mean they come us and we basically to re okay, probably guys. so as we heard yesterday from partners to let them, jo, uh, to go to the re. okay. probably garza and, and control military. this also means oh, wait a minute. and in the 1st stage in northern god, so do i didn't go away. the more of a 1000000 people to the south to the parts of the country street. how to, what the connection is, the between the sending off of it's a for tools concerning the civilian casualties and to the info to drive the way this population. of course, this is something that we don't know, you know, exactly,

but i think it's quite plausible to assume that there is a connection there very you may be very close connection between these to the panes between these 2 phenomena. on the one hand, pull the other students out, and we either may completely loose the attack of severe and confident in a very loose way of knowing that the on the may be at decimals or eventually in one case as a report to hundreds of civilian casualties. that could be heard out of one attack. so yeah, you know, which comes together. it seems that these comes together. jessica dorothy, i will then on civilians as much as a war on how moss essentially, would you agree with that? well that's i think, the fact what we are seeing so back to the points raised by the other 2 panelists,

the policies, the strategic aims and goals may have changed, but more mores still have laws. and those are imperative not only for the protection of civilians that centering the protection of civilians has to be. it's a legal obligation to follow that then. and not only is it a legal obligation, we're seeing even close allied as the united states. secretary of defense has pushed back on this policy, change and approach, saying that israel risk a strategic defeat if they do not protect civilians. so it's a legal and strategic, it's in the interest of everyone to be much less loose, let's say with respect to the targeting parameters for somebody. well yeah, very well to say that much as, as a politician is most and can say that it is israel and the government to mr. nothing. yeah. i found the blindly lively, ignoring at all that there's not very much anybody can do about it as

well as seems in the short term that may be unfortunately the case. but i do think in the longer term, certainly there are investigations ongoing with respect to international criminal law. at the moment the prosecutor and the international criminal court has opened up investigations for both sides of the atrocities. so that something that's being done, certainly the more that comes out about the loose ending of these particular constraints can turn the tides from the allies even further to hear the united states pushing back on the particular lack of precision, i think is quite a telling step um yeah, i share the sentiment, i wish that something could be done in a much more to way because people are suffering. people are dying as we speak. so it does feel somewhere like nothing has been done, but i assure you that's, that's not the case. i want to just focus you for a moment back on hey,

i artificial intelligence, the system that we're discussing and, and your concern that you've raised about, or to mation bias as part of the functionality of this system and what could potentially go wrong with it. what do you mean by that? yeah, i think certainly from the recording i was quite concerned. the red flags of automation biased were raised by reading that essentially what automation biases is a, a i, and machine learning develops a particular targets or makes decisions in a much faster way than humans can. and they do this based on elder, those in computer science. and has a tendency because of speed at which it happens um for humans to start believing what the machine generates is the right direction, the way to go. so the trust in what is the system generates is to be trusted. so we

have to allow that to continue. so the fact, so even if a human is making decisions on whether it's a fire or a bomb based on algorithmically selected targets or not defacto. and we're seeing also with this reporting that the pace at which this is happening doesn't allow for really very much meaningful human control and review of what kinds of civilian casualties are happening based on the target selection. because it's just happening. it's such a rapid fix. a real gust pittsville, one of the frustrating things that struck me in the reporting was that in the past one of the problems israel had was that it ran out of targets quite quickly. because senior commanders would go immediately on the ground into the tunnel system of they wouldn't be able to find them. now they've got the system which is generating these huge numbers of targets among much lower value. how much kind of foot soldiers and,

and the enabling them to go in and hit them at home and their families and bomb and use heavy artillery and big populated apartment buildings killing everybody in the vicinity. it sort of explains, doesn't that why israel hasn't been able to claim the death of many a mouse senior if it gets, but has payments the depths of thousands of how much fight is and why this technology isn't going to help them in the end. reach the goal of eliminating how much it's not going to help them get come on, does it? well, this is the issue here. many of the come on is already gone to grand. many of them will probably be in the x circle, gauze, and metro hamas is to network on to the territory as well. i think, you know, you question here that is real going out that how much does come out and is it will say reveal some, the operational and intelligence, bailey is a god and is ready policy to this point. i always say,

and this one is going into the gulf stream is going primarily into northern gauze, or it's focused, it's offensive on gauze, the city, the and, you know, it could claim victories, that in terms of the cavities, these right new categories being relatively low compared to what was expected of the number of some sketches a claims and obviously, you know, you take this with a pinch of salt lake claims to kill between 5 to 6000 mouse sizes. but at the same time and is ready officials with having his time and time again, the losses and tie a commodity control network is concentrated in the gall and the city every. there's no need for them to expand the war to southern gaza. and now the c 5 ended is what i was looking to do exactly that to expand this war to southern goals are saying the actually an artist, these key commodities, would that stop? they weren't in northern gauze at all. they were able to relocate to a, to southern gaza. so as long as made age and a even though it's short term, it is not like a corporation with strategic victory for as well. it may actually add belie great

to intelligence or operational phase. for me, that has to expand it, supporting the southern gaza strip on the issue. here as, as maryland mentioned, is the, it has a pressure to 1100000 gardens to leave north and garza and move to southern gaza is also under increasing pressure from the by the administration us to saying, as we will not let you and have such a high civilian death, so if you do expand you want to go so you know, our support is finite. possible is dependent on you preserving civilians and allowing fuel for example, and other resources to access to the state is on that finds itself in a strategic dilemma. it feels it has to expand the war to southern gaza, but at the same time it's ability to do so is limited by uh, it's the, the closing window of political support from the, by the administration. and that when there's only going to close further, if civilian casualties escalate, which at the moment because of israel's previous policy, if the poor single one of them civilians, the southern gaza,

that notes sadly inevitable. and of course it, it would help that particular argument with it. jessica dorsey, the fact that this, the system and what we now know about it raises serious questions about what israel and these really ami frequently say. and these really politicians too, is the reason for high civilian the death toll, which is that how mice and other groups embed themselves within the civilian population. what we now know is that targets are being generated to hit minor level foot soldiers where they live in their homes, which by definition are in amongst civilians in densely packed civilian areas. so there's no way to hit them without hitting civilians that really undermines the argument doesn't absolutely, and i think that that is sort of the key or the crux here and the argument regarding proportionality and also the distinction discussion we had earlier about the kind of excessive civilian arm that we're seeing in relation to the direct

military advantage expected if you're going after low level guys. so that is not in any way in line with international legal obligations. and you do israel has an obligation to protect civilians and follow the laws of war. and i think with the ai system, the way that it's generating these targets at such a fast pace. i think obviously it's acutely problematic in gaza right now, but other countries are watching and learning the way that this is being rolled out . there will be actors who will turn it and well, this is how i ought to be um, that is being used perhaps or getting away with certain things. i think that that's a real danger that we haven't touched upon as yet. but i wanted to was, i wanted to put that very point to matter and wrap up for this has got to be a fascinating experience for other ministries been told this sort of, of war fighting to learn from. it's not just a targeting factory that they're looking at, but they're looking at the sort of live file real time experiment in the evolving

use of artificial intelligence in this world. garza, the actual, you know, for international uh, application. i'm not really in a position to to come in to, to come too much. i do have to to come and get the, he's a cleans that he did the he some high ranking from us. he does need a, a heads up of uh, 3 games. uh, from us as of that, the but the game uh they need to have some, uh, high level uh from us, uh meet with them to come and does so and, and yes, and the closer tends to mention that the, you know, easily i went to do so probation off to this to the master code, the 7th of october. well, um the hundreds of civilians were master, could them and they broke into a house to do this as soon as you know. so you were taking 2 guys off and these,

yes, although the army of costs does not to the me too. but the vengeance and motive is very much the. nobody will we have to meet it. but it's, it's certainly a behind the, the, the, the intensity, the, maybe you and the brutality of these are the effects at back these, as was said by my colleagues before. this does not put me is well, truly good, no international, and the need to protect, to bring it in life. no, not only for most of the reasons, only for its own sake because if is low, does not respect these laws. you to own create more hate attributed to read to you, to create, generate generations of process to me, the also to events and we will go into an endless

coat of violence. we will not end violence, we will create more violence. it's broadcast 10 fold wrap. this up for us in terms of, as we were discussing the future of a i in wolfish, will you go to machine which is generating the targets, but it's still a human being who decides to pull the trigger. and this is veterans reporting suggested some he's really combined as a perhaps more trigger happy. uh then others. well, you certainly got the potential for an extremely potent war fighting weapon in this war and many to come. yeah, and it's very clear that you know what's going on here is kind of a petri dish for future conflicts. we all seeing an increase to move to a all i, even before the 7 talk to the united people to do that as well as military intelligence capabilities. for example, it's use of a i like stuck next to cripple

a rating around some nuclear program as another example. but even on the goal of the border, you know what i think this little figuring the commission of inquiry by the way, what are the problems that enabled from us to kill so many be brought to the 7th and you breeches roles bought it and suddenly places and you take and phones, tablets, rate was because it's ro rely on an automated network. you sense? is it use drones, for example, it used cameras, there was a surprisingly a scan and then small human presence in terms of his writing. so just on the border, i simply because at these very defense forces felt that it could manage garza from the fall. and that was proven perfectly wrong up to the 7 in terms of not just the massacre of these railways and, and the shop too, as well. but also of course, is real subsequent, but it's every campaign in the gaza strip. the i do want to make it clear the israel and it is the if you wouldn't mind significant. yeah. is what just want to call a significant civilian casualties. that's no out of humanitarian or inductor. legal

perspective is because it knows the more civilian cavities generated and caused. okay. the middle pressure that will be on his route stuff is operation. okay. we're gonna have to leave it there. and thanks to old, my guests man. on drop a port rope guy spin folder and jessica dorsey, and thanks to you too for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com. and for further discussion, go to on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside storage. and you can also join the conversation on sex. our handle is at a inside story from each over the whole and the entire team here in the good bye for now. the the latest news as it breaks many of the people here celebrating, but they say that their celebrations are sorry because they the number of go too

often kill god with detailed coverage by a release of those. the health comes to the little side of his riley's, i've been following every sense of this thing and fearless gen and isn't most children wilster's life talk to deal with the pain and trauma of losing their parents are loved one these off cheers solutions that gives us know for future that we have to find creative solutions, not just turn our backs on the. don't think that has a number, think about it as a person and yourself and that person's shoes. so as you can see for this is my us, my life, or at least in my life, those dishes we want we want to break because the women in my country, the not sweet, not to on the we are not the night all a to we are human beings on this earth to be trees and the coins we are in the fall

. steps are officers, whatever has been done before, can be done as long as a human being is doing it, you just have to keep pushing because no one else can see. the vision is keywords you to the the hello i'm and as of a lot of them in distance and use our line from doha coming up in the next 15 minutes. the israel's one java escalates even depth and devastation.