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tv   Counting the Cost  Al Jazeera  December 6, 2023 4:30am-5:01am AST

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to minutes through their brazilian forwarded gabrielle marston, natalie. 5 minutes later eluted level thanks to another gabrielle defender, gabrielle osho. and the 1st off ended with another goal from another gabrielle gabrielle hayes, who was making it to one also at the break. but then the 2nd health 2 mistakes from hospital goalkeeper david than i saluted go 32 in front. the counter is equal, ours through car habits before another all there. so i'm assigning desmond rice school but proves to be the when a final school looted the 3 possible full full will have to wonder as of leaves up to 12 false to baby sally one day. and i'm all of you fast 3 and start to fly. he chance going the way to receive a goal of the seas will match it to city manager prep. guardiola says his side will win the league, city or county said in the table behind, lead is also after, during the last 3 matches. like why the all the says the performances all or enough to convince him that they will go on to win a full partial in a row by festival on wednesday. my feeling today while enjoying the family today,
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you've left me wanting to independence. if we're playing the levels of so liberal pulling and talk to him, we're going to meet again. the people don't believe it's already for 3 drawers. but yeah, we're going to do it again. no way that isn't a dizzy because no one, no team have done it yet. so. so that's why the difficulties there. so what less easily was the season me walmart, just united band for jealous. i'm choose dice. press conference. i had a bad match against chelsea. it flies reports of play around rest in the dressing room at old trafford, something that united manager, eric 10 hawk has denied but they should come to us 1st and not to go around in an hour back of printing articles. uh, that's not the right thing. i think we have a lot of that relationship and then begin with dish should give that to us
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for and that we have a normal and a professional discussion. prosecute as inspired and have requested for get jail terms each for the full funds accused of race crimes. against romage would when you have any c as junior, the men who are all members of a fluoride applied to current madrid, support his group, were arrested earlier this year. off to being accused of hanging, an effigy of the brazilian international off a bridge. the around with ritz training ground in the asian champions, the full when is, are you in of the united arab emirates of each the law? 16 is they beat, allow etc, too fast off penalties were enough for and then customized men who beat it. took me to spend, so i to one for the 5th when and 6 great matches. well, those are your latest sport headlines. you can't get more out 0, don't com and all social media trends on use hair on elders hair. often the bottom line, stay with us, it's the,
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it's the when slow down, we stand for as homes with kids of global nichols reserves. indonesia is poised to
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leave the global battery industry. we definitely manage our abundant resources and play a role in solar energy, harnessing offerings, 75 percent of global carbon credits essential. committed to environmental protection, enhancing investment climate, digital licensing, your better tomorrow hire and steve clements and i have a question. how does israel's war in gaza fit into us national security interest? let's get to the bottom line. the, despite a fragile pause in the fighting, all signs point, the long term conflict in the middle east and not only between palestinians and israelis. there had been attacks all along the border between 11 on an israel for the past month and a half. and recently the hudy's in yemen, a 1000 miles away, a hijacked the cargo ship owned by and is really businessman for the us,
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which has made huge commitments to israel militarily, financially and diplomatically since israel's warrant garza started last month, the region is stuck between domestic policy currents and foreign policy interest president, jo biden's, embrace of his real is dividing his own party and increasing number of americans from both parties. say that israel has gone too far and it's response to the attacks by hum us. so where is us policy heading and where do us national security interest really like those interests are up for debate in today's america. so we'll be getting to a very different takes. we'll start with the view from the right within master john bolton, who served as national security advisor under former president donald trump. investor. thank you so much for joining us today. as we're speaking, israel and her boss have reached the deal. where is really hostages are going to be exchanged for palestinian prisoners. how do you feel about this deal and what are your expectations? well, i think everybody from a humanitarian point of view should welcome the people who were kidnapped on october, the 7th being released i, i have
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a general objection to making swap deals for hostages. i think this case is a good example of why it's a bad idea. number one, the ratio is 3 to one that's, that's never a good side number to the people that israel is going to release or essentially criminals. they're not people who were kidnapped while they were enjoying themselves at rock festivals or something like that. so i think this moral equivalence is a mistake, and i think it gives an incentive to hostage takers because if they can bargain like this, they know that taking hostages as well worth it. and i also don't like many of the terms associated with the deal. it may be that a pause of 4 days does give israel some time to regroup and re think it's next steps. but how about how boss is far and away the greater beneficiary terms of extricating some of its fighters, regrouping, hiding the other hostages, ex, field trading some of their p both from guys. and i don't like to plan the part
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that says if a mass turns over another 10 people a day, the pause can continue. i would never give my enemy control over the extent of the seas far. and i think although again, i understand fully the compassion that humanitarian argument here, i don't think we should look, we should miss the strategic implications, i think is rails right? of self defense includes eliminating the mosque threat. and to the extent we take our ios, that strategic objective, i think it increases the chances they will fail. and we will be right back to where we were on october, the 6th in fairly short order. but the global south is screaming you've got a lot of our european allies that are really calling out israel for over reaction. and what they see is indiscriminate killing of many palestinians. i mean, i guess my question to you is, if you're in an office and advising any next president that came up, should there not be some effort to really diminish the,
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the footprint of horror for innocence? yeah. well, you know, in terms of the international pressure, i can tell you when i've been in the government and i've heard about international pressure. if i had a switch inside my ear, i just turn it off. if you don't pay any attention to it, it's not pressure. but here's where i think the most important point that many commentators and, and, and national leaders are missing. i do not consider this a war of from us against israel. i consider this a war by some of america is worst enemies led by the mullers and tyler rod using their tears. sir, good groups like hamas as bala, like the hudy's and you haven't liked the militia groups and a rock in would cost them. so i'm on a, the late cost them, so i'm not, i called the ring of fire strategy against israel. and that's why i think in the arab world, in particular, if people understood this better, and i think many of the leaders do understand it. they would see this is not at an attack on the arab world. this is israel,
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defending itself from the leadership and tear rot uh and, and doing to the palestinian people. what has happened to them in the past being used by outside or for their own purposes. and i think if you understand that in that respect, it would be easier, not easy, but easier for many people in the region to understand what israel is doing and to see where the real perpetrator, the real moral cause of this is and, and it is the government of a rock. what is your view of president biden's take on israel palestine and you know, what are your view? i know you've got some provocative thoughts on this? yeah, i think the 2 state solution is irretrievably wounded. i think it was dead before october. the 7th, i think it's dead buried now i don't think israel is ever going to consent to the creation of a state on its borders that's run by terrorist. and i think my view has been for a long time, but i called the 3 states solution and nobody likes that either. but i would say,
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congratulations to the objection. you now have sovereignty again over the guys. the strip is you did pre 1967 and i think on the west bank i think this is actually more doable. i think israel and jordan have to figure out a relationship that return some sovereignty over the web guy for the egypt and give westbank part of the heart of the west bank of jordan. now i happen to think this is actually the best measure for the, for the welfare of the palestinian people. i think the notion of a palestinian state that includes guides and an archipelago of dots on the westbank cannot be economically viable. and i think for palestinians and their families, these people need to be part of a, of a strong economy. their children need to have schools. they need to be in a place where they can lead a normal life. and in the gaza strip, in many places of the west bank, it's simply not possible. let's not kid ourselves. let's put the welfare of the palestinians above ideological dreams. i mean, i mean,
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let me just wrestle with you a little bit on this. why a band and the notion that somehow with security and autonomy and creating conditions where responsible palestinian patriots that believe in you know, a sort of fair future for their people on and a balanced future. recognizing israel, why is that dream gone? because you know, for 75 years palestinians have been trying to cling to that land. well, they've been trying to cling to a part of the land. they're never going to get back, which is called israel. their, their whole argument is they were forcibly displaced during the 1948 conflict and in subsequent conflicts. and they declared themselves to be refugee is $5000000.00 . i think that's the right number. palestinians are registered as refugees with unreal. the, the, the problem is we have allowed those who had a aims to weaponized the palestinians against israel to use them and ways very
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unfair, the palestinians. and we have allowed the idea that refugee status for palestinians is hereditary, which it is not humanitarian doctrine on refugees. across the world since 1945 with this one exception has been that life and refugee circumstances is the worst outcome of all that for the refugee population, they either need to return to their country of origin, or they need to be resettled. given the politics, they're not going to go back to what they consider their country of origin. it's not going to happen. israel's not going to disappear. so that's why i think resettlement for the palestinians themselves is the fairest most just way to resolve their status. so how does that not fall into the definition of ethnic cleansing, which triggers all these accusations of work crimes that ethnic cleansing you hear, it constantly is what the criticism of israel has been for palestinians who feel
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wrongly displaced from their land. and right now we see even these really government trying to withhold is really the, the settle or movement in the west bank and prompting violence with the west bank to further encroach on this. right. well that's, that's not my argument. my argument is that after conflicts, they're often large flows of populations. if you look at the world after world war 2 is filled with ref, what we see that with your screen right shortly. we see refugees all over the world and the, the worst place for these people is in refugee camps. it's especially the worst place when they lived their generation after generation. the fact is that resettlement in viable economies in the region would make a lot of sense. but for the fact arab governments don't want to take the palestinians, and this is another consequences, a terrible decision to weaponized, the palestinian refugees in egypt. they are concerned that boss, which is a subsidiary. the muslim brotherhood would simply be a greater threat. the age of the drug and government feels the same way. so there's, there's a lot of work that needs to be done here. i don't deny it,
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but i tell you re settling people in guys after this conflict is just going to be in the conflict is going to happen again. the palestinian authority is not an alternative. back in the 2007 elections, i think it was in guys. people were surprised that on the last one and, and, and many said, well, you know, it's actually not because they favored terrorism. they simply will not tolerate the dysfunctional corrupt palestinian authority. taking control and from us looked like an alternative, but space it not much of an alternative. i think i think the guys is different from the west bank. i think the westbank is amenable to different solutions. but for guys, which is a large refugee camp, that is not a solution that is the best future for the palestinian people. let me ask you about what's going on inside america. are you surprised by, you know, the, the, you know, this growing groundswell of criticism of israel's actions after there are mazda
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attacks and us complicity and support? uh, in, in that response. yes, i am very surprised added i, i think it's a potentially a more willing to politically for joe. but, you know, in the last 50 years the 2 parties completely reversed themselves. it used to be the democrats, very pro israel republicans, not often because of anti semitism. let's be honest about it within the republican party. now because of the shifting views of the evangelical christians, who are more strongly supportive of israel and some of the jewish community, republican party is close to unanimous and supporting israel. the democrats, i think, look, split the anti semite central. yeah. republic. yeah, that is amazing. like, but the democrats are split down the middle. and i think this is a really serious problem for joe biden, in 2024. there are a lot of people who don't see this conflict way you do, and they, they don't see. the kind of pro is real stance in the same way. they may support palestinians see decades of injustice. see it differently. some of these people are
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being canceled or fired, etc. i know you've always been a proponent of fair and open discourse in debate. how do you feel about the criticism of those who do stand up for the palestinian side and this and then not? i'm off but but palestinian citizens, who even from whether it's david betray us for cards and stuff molten rather saying hey, there has to be a political horizon for these people. yeah. well look i, i think you can take that position and not the anti semitic, and i think perhaps it's because many people in america are so surprised at the extent of the support for palestinians. but i do, i do think there's a deal of an eye semitism in the united states and i think we're, we're seeing it now a former us national security advisor, john bolton, i really appreciate you coming on their show and sharing your candid views. thank you so much. thanks for having. and now we turn to thoroughly width and the former executive director of human rights watch in the middle east and north africa and currently the executive director of democracy for the arab world. now, sir,
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it's very nice of you to join us today. this is a very sobering, disturbing subject on many levels. let me just start out. if you are advising the bite in ministration today, what would be a few of the key steps you would put in place in response to this crisis? so very basically, we think it's important that the united states starts to enforce its own laws and rules with respect to weapons transfers to israel. and i think even a minimal application would require a suspension of weapons. if we are to be in compliance with us laws, 2nd, the us needs to support a ceasefire. we have seen in the over 40 days that the united states has slowly permitted this war to continue by blocking the basic, even pause resolutions until very, very late in the game. right. uh that, uh no, no military advantage has come of it really. all we have is an unbelievable level of death and destruction,
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but by some calculations over 75 percent of the casualties or civilians right over the vast majority of those are women and children. if we had pushed for a ceasefire from the very beginning, if we had stop blocking a ceasefire, we might not see the carnage that we're seeing today. medium term and long term, just to conclude, the thought. we need to support international peacekeeping forces in gaza. and we need to come in internationally to the reconstruction of gaza, so that we do not permit is we'll to achieve its goal of di populating asa to ensure that the people of garza can return to their homes. and what is now being called north garza and a to not allow the work from the force displacement to be fulfilled. what, how do you get to some place where people feel they can live with dignity?
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they can live without autonomy, they can have rights and justice on. how do we get there as well? i mean, those are 2 very different questions. i think the 1st is about the force displacement of palestinians, including some is really plans to relocate to people of a gaza, to egypt, for example. um and some of the talking points that i'm seeing floated around there is that this is for their own protection. this is for their own security. no, it's not for their protection and it's not for their security. it is to fulfill israel's long held a desire to be popularly garza and the united states in the international community should not facilitate that it should not facilitate creating a permanent buffer zone of, of gauze territory. nor should it agree to cramming palestinians, and so called self concept of permanently, and certainly should not agree to a forcing palestinians to go to egypt and to try to re settled them there. if the
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people of god i need urgent medical care, israel is responsible for providing them that military care why doesn't is, will open up its own borders and boundaries. if it wants to people of garza to flee from is really bombs in bombard with. egypt should not have to show that burden and find itself complicit in these work crimes asked for a lower term solution. i think that for the last 30 years via the oslo accords, the international community has been stuck in a still an expired framework that demands some kind of a negotiated solution between 2 blocks. one block being the palestinian people and one block being these really people. and only after that negotiated solution can palestinians hope to enjoy basic human rights equality and freedom. that's a failed approach. and the right approach is to say that in fact, the 1st thing that needs to happen is a, is we'll needs to respect the basic human rights of all of the people under its
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sovereignty. and all the people under its sovereignty do indeed extend from the river to the sea to it needs to ensure the end of occupation on the end of a part tied up from where from bridge position the people under is way we saw. but you can vote democratic leaks, maybe some palestinians choose one answer. maybe some is rarely choose a different answer. however, it is that should that answer of how that territory should be configured must be a democratic process. and nobody can impose that on the people against their will, but that's a basic tenet of democracy. so let me ask you about the human beings in this, in this equation right now in the hostage swap for prisoners. we're seeing a lot of the pictures, at least i am of the hostages that had been released and come back. it is real. in many cases, very moving families, the people, the stories behind them. i'm interested to also know about the prisoners who've
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been held in to the degree that you know, and that you can share your perspective because some americans have said, those are criminals in is really prisons. i'd like to kind of have a deeper understanding of the palestinians that are being released in this swap, as well as you know, aside from their names, there is very little information that is coming out about these prisoners. i guess so far, only women and children who have been released and it is for been in israel for palestinians to celebrate the release of their loved ones for these prisoners to talk about their imprisonment. uh, and to describe uh what, what they've endured in detention. i think it's very important for, for viewers to understand that though these people are cold prisoners, many of them are not lawfully imprisoned. they've never had a trial. they've never had evidence presented against them. they've never been able to challenge their detention in their imprisonment because they are subject to
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military rules that allow for what is real calls in administrative detention. that means that i as a state can imprison you on the basis of secret evidence that i don't tell you what that secret evidence is without bringing you before a judge and renew that detention and that imprisonment indefinitely in perpetuity. so many of the people who are now released from is really captivity, have never been lawfully imprisoned. they have never been found guilty of any crime . so to call them criminals is really, really jumping ahead of the evidence. and we know that there are thousands of palestinians including women, including children who are imprisoned in this cost. a ask, unbelievable system of imprisoning people on secret evidence indefinitely. but a lot of people look at the as rarely garza crisis as
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a function of proxy bottles of other pipe. and i guess the question they have is how much of this is that's a mistake and blind spot. this is really about palestinian. just as nati ron, not a pro you. if i want to know how you look at it. um, i think it's an insult to palestinians to say that they are merely proxy agents. that'd be wrong. the wrong maybe choosing to support some of our groups in the middle east, just as other parties in the region. very unfortunately, very sadly, support other arm groups in the region. just the way the united states was supporting arm groups in syria, just the way that other countries have, unfortunately, been supporting arm groups and terrorist attacks inside the wrong. unfortunately, i don't think anyone is innocent of that. but let's not confuse that with the grievances that open up people to receiving weapons. for example,
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uh that that give them something to fight for. let's just recognize that palestinians and garza, in particular, had been living under an unbelievable siege. but since 2006, the near complete closure of the territory that has stifled and strangled the 2000000 people, they're cutting them off from the rest of the world, limiting even their caloric intake, subjecting them to regular patterns of bombardment. i think the fact of the matter is that if it was in the wrong, somebody else would find a way to support these grievances. the palestinians have an exploit them. of course, maybe for nefarious ends or not. but that doesn't take away from the fundamental grievance. ask for the larger geopolitical consequences of what's happening since october 7. i think it has exposed really the complete failure of the bible ministration strategy and approach to the middle east. one that was predicated on pursuing so called stability up by
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a lining an apartheid state. apartheid as well with various petro dollar dictatorships in the region, and thinking that they could bypass the palestinian entirely the post indian problem entirely. so by building these little duct tutorial alliances in the region, i think that has been exploded as a strategy for stability. you will not have stability so long as you have this sort of extreme oppression and subjugation. the natural human instinct is to resist and the flight back um and you will not be able to ignore the occupation of palestinians and bypass resolving that conflict as a pass to middle east stability and security. i hope that the by an administrator and has woken up to that reality. and i hope that the arab states signed the abraham courts of thinking that they too could profit and benefit from bypassing
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palestinians by getting little chaos from the united states. i hope they to rethink that and rethink the dangers to their own stability for being seen so closely aligned to israel in the face of this mass of slaughter of civilians there. but that remains to be c fairly with the executive director of dawn and former executive director of human rights watch in the middle east and north africa. thanks so much for your kendra and joining us today. thank you for having me. so what's the bottom line? i feel ambassador bolton is wrong, and ideas like resettling palestinians elsewhere which amounts to a continuation of the ethnic removal of palestinians from the occupied territories . someone call this ethnic cleansing a war crime, but he is correct when he says that any resolution of the palestinian question is really hard to achieve. whether it's a one state system that's blind to religion, and that's in a city or 2 separate states or any plan that really offers dignity and on top of me for palestinians. that's why there's
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a war underway. and the dereliction of responsibility of world powers on this problem has led to this global, horrible conflict in which so many are dying. it's hard to listen to views that we disagree with. but we do have to hear the spectrum of debate as it really is in washington today, not what we would wish it to be. and that's the bottom line, the of the damage in the house of green, the big evidence of the quakes that prompted it's about q way sion, on friday. some emission of toxic gas, a possible pre closer to interruption, was enough for both ortiz to order everyone out. this be nothing on the scale of this emergency since interruption in the 13th century. for the failure, i just put in a sheila and the people who live here is that this isn't just about an image interruption. it's about a long term shift into a much more volcanic reactive and dangerous phase. we could peterson,
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has been monitoring. i spend go to tell geology more than 20 years. she says what's happened to the last few days is evidence of a transition that could last centuries. the peninsula will be dormant until a new activity period starts. and that can also last several 100 some years. iceland, beauty has been forced in part by its 32 or kind of systems. it's people that have to become resilient to the day just. but here in the southwest, those stages around me growing. humanity has opened the gates of hell or in those seats. he's having orlando's effects, as the world discusses how to reduce emissions. supposing an existential threat to humanity, a new oil rush is displacing. you've got the people empower, investigates, the relationship between the mikey oil giants of the global notes and the developing nations of the global self crude mistake. talk to one of the 2 on
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just in depth investigations that give compelling science inter toes to from asia. and the pacific $1.00, oh $1.00 east. on out to 0. the bottles rages, israel vines, its assaults on the southern guns and is ready, ministry says it has con you this around the territory. and this is all just there a lot from the whole. so on the program is ready as strikes once again target dollars is the largest refugee count, palestinians trying to dig out. so 5 minutes with the best the least 5 palestinians or inches.

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