and also by direct is really fires and the village of their hatful. a few kilometers from the border says i would let said to me on the phone. this is like maybe 2 minutes before the rocket. then there was a 0 southern lebanon, a heavy us ton of patterson in the state of new jersey is thousands of kilometers away from gasoline. but as christian sort of me explain so many who lives in the war feels very close to home in the city of patterson, new jersey is a village known as little palestine or palestinian flags. and casee is or is easy to find as people with family and gaza at the house on hair salon, a shave, and a haircut comes with news of the war. even myself, i have a friend who is also american citizen, who still stuck. there cannot make it through, since i'm also attacked israel on october 7th. many here have been threatened owner rod or de also happens to be deputy mayor of the city on one of the business owners,

myself, where i receive lot of phone calls, press. one of the phone calls press was like, we're going to come kill you. we're going to come down your business and bring your family and and that's one. that's why patterson, new jersey has been a destination for air of immigrants since the late 1800. and it's now home to at least 10000 people in palestinian descent. but what has long been a source of pride for the community is now a source of pain. the local sheaf of pharmacy takes its name from the ship, a hospital and gaza city. that's where owner i'm dried out. quite grew up in the last week. he's lost more than 20 family members. you'll watch the news, you see what's going on the news and, and much worse. you see the response from our government and, and, and, and unfairness the inhumane. and,

and looking at the palestinian from cause a as there's some human that's the, this is really the state and this is a level america stands for any in the community have lost loved ones in gaza and faith in the us government. but in the face of grief and despair are coming together, holding regular rallies like this one, lobbying politicians for a cease fire and a homeland they can some day return to christian salumi. i'll just hear a little palestine. alas, it from me for the back to bill, my colleague, nice lock. i will have more news for you on out you 0 right after the bottom line to stay with us. thanks so much. the it is a tenant journalist to produce objective these coverage is stream. yeah,

i don't think that there is a fair objective, any partial a presentation. the listening post covers how the news is come. hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. as israel's war on gauze i interest it's 3rd month. has the palestine is real conflict become unsolvable. let's get to the bottom line. in the words of un secretary general, antonio gutierrez and gaza, there's just nowhere safe to go. and very little to survive on is really forces destroyed. most of the northern part of the gaza strip and push the 1000000 people southward. and now it's intensely bombing, the 2000000 people stuck there. more than 16000 palestinians have been killed by israel, almost 7000 of them children. to put that in perspective, the us killed about 12000 iraqi civilians in the 1st 9 months of the invasion of a rock in 2003. israel says it won't stop until it defeats some os,

which launched an attack on october 7, killing $1200.00 is released and taking more than $200.00 as captives. more than a 100 of those captives have now been released during a pause in the fighting. but there are no signs of a ceasefire now. so where is the war heading and how is it affecting the wider region and the us today we're talking with stephen cook, senior fellow for the middle east in north africa at the council on foreign relations, and author of the upcoming book, the end of ambition, america's past, present, and future in the middle east. even thank you so much for joining us. great, let me start with the book, the end of ambition. what should our ambition in be in a region right now that is convulsing? finally, it's gotta be one of the worst conflicts in this modern era. when you look at the rate of death going on. mean you have written a piece in foreign policy magazine saying there's really no hope for any option. yeah, it's a really v worst conflict that i have encountered in my 20 years working on the

middle east. as a professional, i came into this just as the united states was invading a rock. and as you point out, the casualty, figures and such a short period of time are indeed quite shocking. the problem is that any idea that anybody might have with regard to finally resolving the conflict between palestinians and israelis have either been tried before or are politically non starts. we are at a stalemate between palestinians and his roads. and we were at that still me, even before this conflict began, that is to say that the minimum requirements that the palestinians have for peace or things that the israelis politically are unable to deliver. and the israel's minimum requirements for peace. so things that politically the palestinians are unable to deliver. and so we have stalemate, we have continued settlement which looks more and more like annexation and of course, periodic spasms of horrific violence like we've been seeing since october set are, is united. so i want to focus on the us debate for a moment. it seems so orwellian to me. you know, i know matthew miller,

who's the department of state spokesperson and he made the statement. i have not seen evidence of their intentions village. we believe that far too many civilians have been killed. but again, this goes back to the underlying problem of this entire situation. i also hear lloyd austin say that is real risk strategic defeat it unless it moves to protect the palestinian civilians. and i'm liking, is anybody watching the tvs hearing the you, when we've seen what's going on? but is there a kind of wilful disregard for the fact that you know, to, to the point of matthew miller? yes, we're seeing civilians intentionally guilt as well. this is a, i think the most difficult issue in this conflict in the united states is stuck in here because the president believe that if he hugs you as well as he could shape their military operations, which i think getting my gaming supports and work big probably supportive of mass

avenue come in and west point is here and say, don't be so bad exactly how we're going now. is that strategy? i think it was a miscalculation and i think it's surprising that it was a miscalculation because of the way in which the israelis have framed this conflict . and after what happened on october 7th, the footage that if you had seen it is shocking words don't actually capture how shocking and violent and quite honestly barbera at that. those attacks were and subsequently the israelis have defined this conflict, existential terms. and i think that the administration was calculated not understanding, or at least under estimating the way in which these relatives were going to pursue their military operations. given the fact that they had defined this conflict. the next essential turns into overestimating their ability to shape the way in which these military operations are unfolding. there's clearly an effort on the part of the israelites to demoralize palestinian society. and in this way,

separate them from how much i think we can see from whatever public opinion we can glean from gaza and the west bank. quite honestly that this is having actually the opposite effect internally we, we know some wiki leaks that in the united states in his rallies discussed guys in, in past years. and there's a piece and that we, you weeks discussions that basically said israel was only willing to allow gaza enough economic activity to barely be of above subsistence. it's a fairly, you know, bone showing treatment that, that kind of looked at the way in which causa was never set up for success. why would a nation like is real, think that demoralizing the palestinians asked or what they've been doing for? i mean, it's kind of raises the question of what was the state of affairs on october 6th, right. well look, if you remember after israel's withdrawal from college in 2005, there was all kinds of efforts on the you in the clinton global initiative, other international

n g o is to try to develop helped develop the gods. a script. obviously that did not work. there was huge and tremendous and quite violent political divisions within god to itself. and those, all those good plans were laid waste as a result of this that the, the competition between how boss and the polo since then. these relatives have sought to essentially cordoned off with the help of the egyptians cordoned off the gaza strip. and as you said, leave it in a subsistence kind of way. the idea was to establish a deterrence between israel and how about right that was shattered on october 7th. and it strikes me that the israelis want to completely wash their hands of the gods district. but not before they destroy from us. however, they define it is going to be a, as you said, something that is unfolding before our eyes. that is going to kill many,

many people. these rallies believe that as they intensified their military operations and demoralized the policy and public to isolate a mos in palestinian society. as i said, i don't think that that's likely to happen. you know, one of america's political leaders who is clearly evolved since this crisis began and sen bernie sanders, who was all in give his real support was, was on every level. he's now written a letter to his colleagues and said america can no longer be complicit in the indiscriminate killing of civilians. and that is benjamin that yahoo! his plan. he basically says net and yahoo is not at work with him off now who is at war with the palestinians, and we cannot be complicit in that. and he is opposing this larger funding package for israel and that i, i'm interested in your views on it because even you had a case, it's just just a merge that, you know, today. i mean, it's interns, but nonetheless we have divided institutions state department staff resigning or sending letters to anthony blinking the secretary of state,

basically expressing great concern that we have and become an objective in this relationship. you have 40 in turns inside the white house, working for the office of the president, the office of vice president who have signed a letter that essentially said they have great concern about where this is going. so i'm just interested in what this is doing to us to divide it how you think that's going to play. i think as far as capitol hill in turns and staff, i think they serve at the pleasure of the people who were, who were elected representatives. if they don't like the policy, they can leave interns. it's a privilege to be an intern in the white house. i think that i would take, i mean i, i know it's in turns, but nonetheless, yeah. and then anything else can have an interest can have differing opinions. but when you, when you sign on, you sign on to pursue a policy and they have it right. interest being i have to sign on, but it's it, it is an interesting take of the temperature of the times. and when you kind of look at, say, the democratic every year, which is present biden's party,

you see declining support and a kind of paralysis in his foreign policy numbers. because of this crisis in the way he's responding and differences is a view inside that part. it's undoubtedly the case that the politics of israel's changing in the united states, but in particular, within the democratic party. but if i could just finish my point on, on the interns and congressional stat, they, they have records, they have written their letters, they can also resign their positions. it is somewhat in our system. it is somewhat, i think, presumptuous for capitol hill staff. we're not elected to be taking this position against the people who bass or been against the people who elected the people. they, sir, but it does speak to your point, which is that there are very, very serious differences of opinion within the united states. on the question of our support for israel particular support result during this military operation that we would not have seen 152025 years ago. and i think that it's important to

recognize that the politics of israel is changing and in this country in, in important important ways. i want to play clip for you from president biden when he met a president, a boss in bethlehem last year. let's listen so even if the ground is not right at this moment, to restart negotiations, united states in my administration will not give up on trying to bring the power. steering is relays. and both sides, closer together to see when you've written a powerful piece was very depressing for me. but i think it was very realistic on the different perspectives of the players around the israel palestine stand off here. we have a president biden last year saying that, you know, the situation is not right. it raises the question, was whether it will ever be right or thinking as he is now called for a return to a 2 state solution and somehow seeing and is really peace camp some where be take

us through the blind spots that each has on the day after solutions for this crisis, well, look, i think the administration had not actually really wanted to deal with this issue pregnant, biting people. people forget that as they shut that under the rug, right. as vice president, he oversaw negotiations between israelis and palestinians that were convened by secretary statements. secretary state john kerry. and he came to the conclusion that there really was no no way forward and had avoided this other than his meeting with a boss in in bethlehem. in which he basically now did the kind of formula about the 2 state solution i think be going forward. i think any plan that the current secretary state secretary blinking about an international force in the cause of strip for the day after a reinvigorated palestinian authority and authority that is corrupt, dysfunctional lacks legitimacy in part because of its cooperation with israel in

the united states. as well as the fact that my who to boss the present in the pals new that hasn't stood for election. he's in the 3rd year 18 year of a 4 year term is people like to say, and i, i think there is no peace care. there is no peace camp among the israelis. i think i'll be the be there from it. we are not in the last behind closed doors, talking about the policy being authority somehow getting, you know, back in shape and back in gear in all the things you write about that say likely can happen though those are the things we're actually discussing. yeah, we, it's, it's an unrealistic thing, but the administration and i think the people around them and i think most of washington abreast of any ideas about how to go forward. i think i think the american for our policies 1000 is appalled by what happened on october 7. has grave questions about the israel military operations since then,

but doesn't have an answer to bring around into their heads. the idea that whatever, i guess that we have advanced over the course of the previous 25 or 30 years, didn't work it in and still don't work now. and my fear is that with out those any new ideas, we're going to return to some very, very disturbing version of the status quote in which you have a security regime over the gauze and strip destitution of the people in the gaza strip. but no real movement towards the resolution to accomplish, i think that's a more likely outcome to this, then a 2 state solution and real peace negotiations that would finally bring this terrible conflict to annette. there's another dimension of this which is not getting a lot of coverage is what's happening on the west bank and several are provocations, even murders attacks on palestinians there. this was a distinct and different area of it was not engaged in the october 7th. how mazda attacks against israel, and yet violence is rising, there?

are we not paying enough attention to the dangers of the west bank? absolutely. i think all the focus has been on the north and has been lost. but some of us have been saying that the real danger of escalation is the west bank for us. there is a reservoir of support for him as on the west bank. and you have a radical settler community that has been empowered by ministers in the israeli government. who were intent on and exceeding territory in west bank, and quite frankly, driving palestinians from their land. and it's, it is as clear as day that that is what their intention is. now the administration in the body ministration has begun to sanction some of these people, not giving them visas. sanctions would hurt, especially among the american contingent, which is larger than people think among the settler community. but there is a real risk, a real danger of this escalating in ways that are, could lead to once again, real concerns about the,

the palestinian population of the west bank and where they might go. that is something that ministers in the israeli government have actually talked about that is population transfer, otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. but i would, i would also say that what i see happening to, to america standing in the world. i'm not saying it's following, but it's definitely being assailed by other nations that she is holding to a double standard. we see a deep divide even in europe right now. uh, you know and have a 100 so that, that is certainly true. but i wonder what, how different that really is. i mean, what's different is the kind of shocking violence of this war, right. but for as long as i have been working on the bill, it's for as long as you have been working on and traveling through the middle, you ever heard about america's double stands? yeah, i think so. what's different now, but it's been different. it's different from the last 30 years is that there are actually competitors near peer competitors to the united states in the world try to

being one of them. india is much more influential in the middle east than a once was even russia, which isn't really a near peer competitor of the united states has influence in the region. and particularly in the global. i mean, i mean, i've been watching air to one in turkey, basically, output stakes in this as well. right. is that a good thing that may be, you know, as i sort of look at it and united states has been defending israel's right to defend itself. mm. hm, and this defensive itself is resulting in that, you know, thousands of deaths have in a sense, while we're still trying to support and aid those. and it looks like you've given permission to kill, but you're trying to write it raises the questions whether we can be truly objective and a protector of both sides or whether we actually need other players like china, like russia, like a turkey on the other side of this equation, well, of course i think turkey has written itself out of this, um, for the united states and as well as for the as well as i think the,

i think both washington and advisory forcing him us, well, i mean, calling or have as a national liberation movement, and of course, the economist had an extraordinary piece in which demonstrated that how about his financial, where with all is really based on what it has done with took his financial institutions. but i think it's important and you make your, your learning to a very important point. is that with the rise of other powers in the region as well as in the world, it may actually produce guard rails, right on the united states. it may force us to do things that we haven't done over the course of the last 25 or 30 years where we have been the, the, the power and there has been no others. and this may force us to put some guard rails on, on our partners in the region. it doesn't seem like we've been able to do that so far with the israelis. and this is where the united states has court is called. and it says, the point that you make, we're counseling me, is really not to do certain things targeting civilians to be more careful yet we're

helping give them the means to do precisely that. and that's what every, what do you in the world proceeds. and that's a real problem for the united states. i think going back to the beginning of our conversation, it's because president binding himself as well as others in the ministration miscalculated the way in which these relatives were going to respond immediately defined as conflict in existential toured. that's where the bear hug president binds, bear hug a prime minister net to y'all was a miscalculation because the israelis interpret that as the president being on board in their existential struggle. a little more distance at the beginning would allow the united states perhaps a little more room now, is to try to restrain these routes. but again, i'm skeptical when a country defined something, an existential terms, no matter who it is, no matter what kind of resources they may have to bring to bear on it. on a problem, it's going to be hard to move, move the other country, in this case, the israelis off of what their strategies look is really public isn't blamed by

what happened on october. some has words to the right polling demonstrates that even a significant number of israelis don't believe that the all you have is using enough force uh, in the, in, in, in the gaza strip. so it's a long way to go before the as well as stand down. we're in the middle of a horrible price is right. and you've written a piece that said, guess what? they're probably more horrible. crises down the road at the end of the day. do middle eastern states, the abraham accords to others, come along and look at this incident as a game changer or the we shove it under the rug and are destined to see this kind of horrible thing happen again. first, let me just apologize. i, you know, i don't mean to be the person who, you know, who, who already hold water on solution supposed go. it's just, i think we do a service by recognizing the limits of american power and what's realistic right in this situation. um, this is horrifying. i, there's no joy in it for me to say, hey folks, this solutions that we talk about don't seem to be realistic. i think as far as the

abraham accords countries go. what's interesting to me is that there has been recalls have been bass. it has, but nobody has broken relations with these rallies. yeah. we'll see as this on falls, whether important countries that have become important to israel, like united arab emirates like morocco, like back range. do have a limit here. i think there was a belief that they are good offices with these rows would help somehow temper uh, the unfolding military operations. but once again, i go back to this existential framing for these routes. i suspect that ties are not yet deep enough that there remains an option for these countries to move back away from these routes. but thus far we, we haven't yet seen it. we've seen top top, we've seen those cards even closer to what the arab consensus has become on this conflict. but again, there's a long way to go century blinking told the israel war cabinet that it had weeks.

and these really defense minister said we'll take as long as we need in order to achieve our objective. so what's your guys, are we looking at months or are we looking at weeks brolio? and i thought that this would be wrapped up by january. i no longer believe that to be the case. i think that the push into the south really does change things. i thought the as well as would isolate the north and kill as many people have boss terrace there as they possibly could as me and then right target the leadership of come us not push with massive amount of force into the south. and that is giving me pause and thinking that actually they are so or is about this. why it, why serious about going in and it taking months? and this is something very different from the israel, is you've never wanted to fight a world much longer than 2 or 3 weeks. and finally, if you were advising president biden right now, who's trying to influence this?

you do with the balance of the hostages? yeah, i think uh, the hosted situation is extraordinarily tough for us. we don't know how many of them are actually alive. right. and i think that the israelis have determined that the negotiations that the countries oversaw have run their course. and that must really doesn't have the ability to hand people over, don't want to at this point. and that if anything, military pressure will, will force their hand. perhaps what i would say to president biden is you made a mistake on october 7th in 8. it was, it was of course appropriate to indicate your, your support, your shoulders still to support with israel. but you the bear hug, the subsequent bear hug was a mistake, and now you need to figure out a way forward. and one of those wave boards is by taking a more public sandra south. it's one thing for the vice president, the secretary of defense of the secretary of state to say things, but it's another thing for the present united states to speak out publicly about

what we see unfolding in the cause. threatened, well senior fellow at the council on foreign relations steven cook, i really appreciate your candor and you being with us today. thank you so much. thanks. bye. so what's the bottom line? the us is taking this approach where once more food, water in medicine to get to the victims of israel's attack, while it gives us real permission to keep killing. it's one of the world's worst wars, given the level of death and destruction even considering that it was triggered by how mazda is a tax 2 months ago. the us government hope somehow that a reinvigorated palestinian authority can somehow be useful or that is real, will somehow see the folly of abandoning a 2 state peace plan. but my guest is right to wonder about these assumptions, especially the chances that a peace campbell ever evolve and is real. if the international community would step up to become palletized protector and a steward for the time being guaranteeing palestinian security autonomy and civil justice as well as really security. until the last thing arrangement can be reached,

there might be a chance. but for now, all option seems to be dead and, and that sadly is the bottom line. the the latest news, as it breaks, i still have claimed responsibility for the bombing of a gymnasium in morales city, security, personal se, there. so looking into all possible levels with details coverage, the people here along the border receive virtually no assistance from the federal government at the united states from around the world. this is aging childrens hospital where so they've been receiving more than 9000 pages every day, forced to expand their capacity a number of days. a candidate has to expand its use in a zillow's fault lines, meets those advocating for the change is suicide. but it's facilitated to our way to decide that it's not the right choice. and critics who believe the government is

prioritizing depth of, of providing necessary social and economic support staff was an 8 worked festival and getting some food to eat or getting stuff for their pain. do you want to die today? a fault lines investigation on alger 0, the, the the,

[000:00:00;00] the the the we know what is happening in our region. we know how to get some places that others tend on fear god,

by that on purpose. the way that you tell the story is what can make a difference the, the, the israel kills at least $350.00 pounds over the past 24 hours. causes jabante, a refugee camp on the southern city of con, you just to target the company parker. this is i would just say a license though will. so coming up dozens of palestinian men all stripped and held by as ready forces that un run schools in northern garza renowned by listing and